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Edit: I removed the offending paragraph. I formally apologize to all those who I offended. I simply meant this thread to be a discussion of Chinese miniature painting companies in general. Again, I apologize whole heartedly, and will accept any punishment the mods see fit.

Okay, I was looking on eBay today, doing some market research on what people charge for painted miniatures, and I noticed some thing similar in about 2 out of every 3 listings:

"This seller is located in Hong Kong/Guadong/some other city/province in China"

So, does anyone here have thoughts on the Chinese miniature painting business? If so, I would really like to hear from you all, as I have yet to see a public conversation about such companies.

_Tim?

Well, its no different from the mexican working in the Usa.
A friend of mine bought alot of stuff from that hongkong seller. Compared from the painting service from where I am from, the works is really good and CHEAP (which probably why people buy from them). An honest work is still an honest work, beats from them becoming a robber.

If they have good pictures so you can judge quality, and a good ebay rating indicating the pictures are accurate, since I don't intend to eat the figures nor lick/suck the paint off of them, I don't see an issue.

I had some figures painted by a service out of Sri Lanka and they did a great job. Good communication, took direction well, packed the figures VERY well for the shipment...

Jake

I'm not sure why the Chinese always seem to be portrayed so badly. I'm sure anyone working there wouldn't appreciate loosing their much needed jobs because we perceive (or assume?) their working conditions are bad. Also the chances are most of us are currently surrpunded by items of chinese manufacture.

Anyhoo that said, I wouldn't be comfortable buying from overseas unless it was from an established seller or company that I knew. The distance and language/time differances just make the possibility of a poor outcome more difficult to resolve.

If I did buy like this I would ensure that my credit card covered me for this purchase, on top of any cover that Paypal might offer.

We live in houses built by mexicans full of electronics and gadgets made in china and wear cloths made somewhere in central america. Why should our army men be any different?

If they have a worthwhile rating and lots of good feedback, I don't see an issue. But actually read the feedback, ebay won't show old bad feedback in the rating, but if you go through what customers actually said you might find some bad ones if you dig down.

And like someone said make sure your credit card will cover you just in case

Necros wrote:We live in houses built by mexicans full of electronics and gadgets made in china and wear cloths made somewhere in central america. Why should our army men be any different?

Yeah, 1. Mexican Americans, 2. Oversought by foreman with experience in the field, who're directed by the planners of the housing tracts themselves, with a city engineer (auditors) coming by every week to check up on the progress of our houses. Yeah, I don't think your housing scenario is really in the ballpark of Chinese painting minis.

Without seeing actual pictures of their work I can't be objective. That's where the prejudice creeps in. My prejudice is that I think painting minis takes some degree of skill that I don't think the average sweatshop worker who gets paid $1 an hour is going to have. Prejudice 2, I assume it is a sweatshop situation with a low standard of QC....hell maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they've all got better lighting and desk setups than I do at home. I don't know, when I think of pacrim miniature painting for commisision I keep seeing those cheapass $3 GIJoe knockoffs at the Walmart. But admittedly, that's prejudice.

Provide link next time. Informed review kills prejudice.

No surprise.

WoTC had their entire line of miniatures from 2003-2009ish painted and made in China. They may still do it for any of their lines that are still in production.

One of the guys in my group ONLY buys minis from the Chinese sellers anymore. They're the only ones he's encountered that can handle the level of business he brings (typically a full army at a time) at a reasonable time frame and keep their promises.
All of the commission painters he's tried elsewhere -for large lots- have failed to deliver in a timely manner.

They do great commissions, too. Numerous times, he's bought a bunch of ForgeWorld, sent it off, and it's been returned to him as promised.

I recall in the past that at least ONE of those guys (China, Sri Lanka or something) was profiled and interviewed on a podcast. Essentially, he's paying his painters more than (I want to say double?) the current average salary there.

Also, if you keep using those guys, you know everything you get will be of the same quality and match everything else in the army.

I used to really razz him for it, but I can't really blame him anymore.
Personally, I will continue to use BTown advertisers, but I won't knock others for doing it anymore.

Eric

Do you have any reason to believe that the minis are being painted by sweat shop workers other than the fact that they are coming out of China?

If not, then go ahead. If you are still suspicious, look into the matter further.

I myself felt the same way about buying gold on WoW a few years back. I looked into it, only to discover that a great deal of 'gold farmers' on WoW are actually inmates in Chinese prisons, who are forced to play the game for 16+ hrs a day, and beaten with pipes if they can't meet mandatory quotas. I'd hate to think the Chinese mini-painting industry was run along similar lines.

Jimsolo wrote:Do you have any reason to believe that the minis are being painted by sweat shop workers other than the fact that they are coming out of China?

If not, then go ahead. If you are still suspicious, look into the matter further.

I myself felt the same way about buying gold on WoW a few years back. I looked into it, only to discover that a great deal of 'gold farmers' on WoW are actually inmates in Chinese prisons, who are forced to play the game for 16+ hrs a day, and beaten with pipes if they can't meet mandatory quotas. I'd hate to think the Chinese mini-painting industry was run along similar lines.

Hey, sarcasm and abrasiveness NOT appreciated, buddy. I asked a simple, honest question.

MagickalMemories wrote:One of the guys in my group ONLY buys minis from the Chinese sellers anymore. They're the only ones he's encountered that can handle the level of business he brings (typically a full army at a time) at a reasonable time frame and keep their promises.
All of the commission painters he's tried elsewhere -for large lots- have failed to deliver in a timely manner.

They do great commissions, too. Numerous times, he's bought a bunch of ForgeWorld, sent it off, and it's been returned to him as promised.

I recall in the past that at least ONE of those guys (China, Sri Lanka or something) was profiled and interviewed on a podcast. Essentially, he's paying his painters more than (I want to say double?) the current average salary there.

Also, if you keep using those guys, you know everything you get will be of the same quality and match everything else in the army.

I used to really razz him for it, but I can't really blame him anymore.
Personally, I will continue to use BTown advertisers, but I won't knock others for doing it anymore.

Eric

If that is true, I am pretty impressed! It is a fact that, unfortunately, people in the 'States/other parts of the world run their commission services as a side business don't have the time to paint up whole armies in a matter of weeks. Wish I could be that devoted to doing commissions.

Maybe I'll move to China and get a job for one of those services, lol. Double minimum wage is around $15 per hour, just to paint miniatures.

_Tim?

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Okay, I was looking on eBay today, doing some market research on what people charge for painted miniatures, and I noticed some thing similar in about 2 out of every 3 listings:

"This seller is located in Hong Kong/Guadong/some other city/province in China"

Okay. While the models look GREAT in the listings, I cannot understand why anyone would feel...comfortable, ordering models painted by some unnamed sweat-shop worker, who probably takes no pride in his work because he paint tons of the same model every day, with possibly toxic paints (because those are the cheapest). I know I would not feel comfortable ordering models from such companies.

So, does anyone here have thoughts on the Chinese miniature painting business? If so, I would really like to hear from you all, as I have yet to see a public conversation about such companies.

_Tim?

I'll call you out on this.
You mention "sarcasim and abrasiviness not appreciated" in your post above.
I think your orginal post is boardline inappropriate and offensive. "Ordering models painted by some unnamed sweatshop worker who takes no pride in their work." Where do you come off making comments like that. I'm sure those same people you are offending would consider you lazy, uneducated, and a rude. That's the stigmatism the world has of American's. Which your fueling with your narrow minded post.

I've purchased models off Ebay sellers from China. The models were nicely painted, for a fair price, with consolidate shipping. I have no complaints of the work, they shipped I got it. I ordered from them because they had a 100% feedback score on ebay.. which was significantly greater then their competition who were sellers here in the states.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Maybe I'll move to China and get a job for one of those services, lol. Double minimum wage is around $15 per hour, just to paint miniatures.

Double the averange Chinese wage. Significantly less than the US minimum wage.

I know a lot of companies that get work done in China not just because they have better prices, but because they also have better quality control than American companies. One was telling me the other day that their rejection rate for parts was around 20% from their US suppliers and about 5% for Eastern Europe and China. They closed a UK facility because of quality issues, not production costs (40%+ rejection rate, IIRC).

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Okay. While the models look GREAT in the listings, I cannot understand why anyone would feel...comfortable, ordering models painted by some unnamed sweat-shop worker, who probably takes no pride in his work because he paint tons of the same model every day, with possibly toxic paints (because those are the cheapest). I know I would not feel comfortable ordering models from such companies.

Sorry, so just to be clear, do you feel this way about painting services in general, or are you just painting the Chinese with a great big stereotype brush?

Well, crap. Looks like I have some explaining to do.

Alright, I will summarize: I totally did NOT mean my post to come across as most people have interpreted it. I didn't mean for a minute to suggest that the models would necessarily be painted in a sweatshop. Now that I re-read the post, I realize that it made me look incredibly xenophobic, rude, and arrogant. You guys are right; if I had sincerely meant for the post to be offensive, I would be every last one of the names that have been attached to me.

I have full respect for the work that these Chinese companies do, in fact, they are some of the best miniatures I have seen for sale. Just look at this link, and you will know what I mean > http://cgi.ebay.com/25mm-DPS-painted-Tomb-Kings-Khemrian-Warsphinx-TK003-/160623224831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565e3e7ff

I am sorry that I did not add one or two more words into my post that would have clarified my meaning. Isaniak, npjc, MightyGodzilla, Notprop, and Jimsolo, I apologize for offending you guys. However, I do not apologize for starting this thread; I meant for it to be a discussion of Chinese painted miniatures on eBay, and people's experiences with them

_Tim?

I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

Oh, I disagree; just check out this listing> http://cgi.ebay.com/25mm-DPS-painted-Tomb-Kings-Khemrian-Warsphinx-TK003-/160623224831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565e3e7ff

That Warsphinx would seriously get a 8 out of 10, on the Dakka gallery. And it's cheap to. That's what get's me, I guess; I tend expect stuff that is cheap to be low quality.

_Tim?

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

keep your personal opinion to yourself. Everyone have a choice to do what they like with their money, and "support your local area painter" I don't think I can find a local area painter and if they paint like a 3 years old why would I choose them?

People want cheap and afordable painting with good dealines and good quality so who fits this? Chinese painters

why would anyone else choose others when the Chinese painters do the best deal.

I am personally Chinese and I see these stupid comments about how Chinese product is "cheap" but like most people here pointed out that they are not so thank you everyone. To the OP its nice your apologised just think before you post a topic that might be classified or read as offensive even if you don't mean it.

I can't see you original post so I don't actully know what you said but I can only gather from other peoples replies.

People in china probably love painting as a job, think of all the factory jobs where you might loose a finger or arm just from everyday work , I would say painting is very safe job. What might seem little money goes a long way in china.

5 yen in china is about 50 pence and probably 90 cent that can feed 3 people for food with left overs. It actully tastes damn good, and for 500 yen so £50 can get me a meal in a 5 star resturant and I would say I actully prefer the cheap food so people have very satisfactory lives in china and are not unhappy like you think.

I seen the working conditions (my dad was factory owner) and no the working conditions were not bad, yes the working area might be bland grey concrete Walls but they get their lighting, safety inspections and a moderate clean workstation. Those were the lowest paid jobs in china so higher paid get better work places.

So Chinese painters are probably working in a nice lit clean working area with the tools they need to work. Things we get here are extras. You don't need a large workstation just the paint and light so you can see and paint.

When you buy stuff from china don't think the people made it are unhappy, they are actully happy they got a job you need to feel sorry for the people who don't have jobs.

Marthike wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

keep your personal opinion to yourself. Everyone have a choice to do what they like with their money, and "support your local area painter" I don't think I can find a local area painter and if they paint like a 3 years old why would I choose them?

People want cheap and afordable painting with good dealines and good quality so who fits this? Chinese painters

why would anyone else choose others when the Chinese painters do the best deal.

I am personally Chinese and I see these stupid comments about how Chinese product is "cheap" but like most people here pointed out that they are not so thank you everyone. To the OP its nice your apologised just think before you post a topic that might be classified or read as offensive even if you don't mean it.

I can't see you original post so I don't actully know what you said but I can only gather from other peoples replies.

People in china probably love painting as a job, think of all the factory jobs where you might loose a finger or arm just from everyday work , I would say painting is very safe job. What might seem little money goes a long way in china.

5 yen in china is about 50 pence and probably 90 cent that can feed 3 people for food with left overs. It actully tastes damn good, and for 500 yen so £50 can get me a meal in a 5 star resturant and I would say I actully prefer the cheap food so people have very satisfactory lives in china and are not unhappy like you think.

I seen the working conditions (my dad was factory owner) and no the working conditions were not bad, yes the working area might be bland grey concrete Walls but they get their lighting, safety inspections and a moderate clean workstation. Those were the lowest paid jobs in china so higher paid get better work places.

So Chinese painters are probably working in a nice lit clean working area with the tools they need to work. Things we get here are extras. You don't need a large workstation just the paint and light so you can see and paint.

When you buy stuff from china don't think the people made it are unhappy, they are actully happy they got a job you need to feel sorry for the people who don't have jobs.

If I could, I would shake your hand. I, once again, did not mean for my post to sound so offensive. I just forgot one or two letters, and people rose up and raged at me. And I can understand why. I misspoke. And I totally respect the chinese people; after all, they made the jeans I am wearing, the shoes I am wearing, and the keyboard I am typing this message on.

Well, I have really stepped in a pile of dog crap now. Looks like I have screwed up my reputation pretty thoroughly, and will be forever painted as a xenophobic, biased, rude, human being. Gah.

_Tim?

Marthike wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

A whole bunch of stuff about... Nothing.

Too bad, get off your high horse and keep the hyperbole to yourself.


The irony of your subpar statements speaks more of your own insecurity then anything anyone else can tell you.

Local painters... nuff said.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:Do you have any reason to believe that the minis are being painted by sweat shop workers other than the fact that they are coming out of China?

If not, then go ahead. If you are still suspicious, look into the matter further.

I myself felt the same way about buying gold on WoW a few years back. I looked into it, only to discover that a great deal of 'gold farmers' on WoW are actually inmates in Chinese prisons, who are forced to play the game for 16+ hrs a day, and beaten with pipes if they can't meet mandatory quotas. I'd hate to think the Chinese mini-painting industry was run along similar lines.

Hey, sarcasm and abrasiveness NOT appreciated, buddy. I asked a simple, honest question.

I wasn't being sarcastic or abrasive. I'm genuinely shocked. What made you think I was being sarcastic? I was being serious, and trying to answer your question in a serious fashion. Prisons in southeast Asia keeping inmates in horrible conditions and forcing them to make money via a videogame? Actual truth, not me being sarcastic.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam

I'm not saying everything on the internet is true, but this isn't the first such article I've seen.

After seeing the link to the painting service on eBay I don't think that I'd have a problem ordering a painted mini/army from that company. I think the model advertised looks great.

I'm hoping the painters love what they're doing and where they're working at. I wish I could paint minis all day for the salary I get.

Well I know a couple of people in China who do commission work. A couple of them work in my FLGS (she literally gets paid to paint, though personal commissions come after the stores models) and a few friends of mine use others. As far as I'm aware they run their own stores and use acrylic paints. I've seen some great commissions, I've seen some bad ones.

The fact is the miniature business is a growing one in China. Anyone who takes an interest in this is likely to be a player or a collector, or a group of such individuals. I seriously doubt they are being done by guys in a pokey little room and beaten if they fail to meet their quota. Painting with skill means you need good lighting, you need access to decent brushes and paints and you need to allow artistic talent to flow.

Jimsolo wrote:

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:Do you have any reason to believe that the minis are being painted by sweat shop workers other than the fact that they are coming out of China?

If not, then go ahead. If you are still suspicious, look into the matter further.

I myself felt the same way about buying gold on WoW a few years back. I looked into it, only to discover that a great deal of 'gold farmers' on WoW are actually inmates in Chinese prisons, who are forced to play the game for 16+ hrs a day, and beaten with pipes if they can't meet mandatory quotas. I'd hate to think the Chinese mini-painting industry was run along similar lines.

Hey, sarcasm and abrasiveness NOT appreciated, buddy. I asked a simple, honest question.

I wasn't being sarcastic or abrasive. I'm genuinely shocked. What made you think I was being sarcastic? I was being serious, and trying to answer your question in a serious fashion. Prisons in southeast Asia keeping inmates in horrible conditions and forcing them to make money via a videogame? Actual truth, not me being sarcastic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam

I'm not saying everything on the internet is true, but this isn't the first such article I've seen.

Jimsolo, sorry I snapped at you, dude. It's so hard to detect what is sarcasm and what isn't on the interwebs. I extend the hand of friendship.

@Lukus: It's great to hear from someone "on the ground" so to speak. You have set me at ease.

Sorry for the debacle, guys; I will remeber re-read my posts from now on.

Cheers!
_Tim?

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Maybe I'll move to China and get a job for one of those services, lol. Double minimum wage is around $15 per hour, just to paint miniatures.

_Tim?

Not over there it isn't.

Eric

[edit]

Jan 26, 2011:

Tianjin's labor bureau, in a statement seen Wednesday on its website, said it is preparing to raise the city's minimum monthly wage to 1,070 yuan ($160) from the current 920 yuan ($140).

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/01/26/china-ups-minimum-wages-inflation-persists.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marthike wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

keep your personal opinion to yourself. Everyone have a choice to do what they like with their money, and "support your local area painter" I don't think I can find a local area painter and if they paint like a 3 years old why would I choose them?

Respectfully, whether you agree or disagree with it, he's as entitled to express his opinion as you are.
Dakka does not limit posts to "only those that agree with the majority/minority/OP."

Eric

The only part i'll follow up on is professional painting:
If you are going to purchase professional painted models, its like buying a car, you buy from a services you feel is reputable and you are comfortable with.

As mentioned above, I purchased 2 units of Gutter Runners. The service I got them off did a nice job. I'll be honest, I got them pretty much for retail, as the person who originally ordered them did not pay them. After shipping, I probably paid $10 more then retail for both. I was happy with the product, the timeframe worked out, I usually 100% paint my army... but was heading to a GT and busted my painting hand boxing.

The experience I had was good. I'll be honest. I purchased professional American models about 2 years ago. And was ripped off. The models ended up being striped and repainted by myself. The pictures I rec'd of the item's for the commissioned work were deceiving. Unfortunately, hind sight is 20-20.

So in my 2 experiences...
1. Positive experiences with chinese painter, quick send, product as described.
2. Negative experience with american painter, who took longer then expected, shooty work.

My advise: investigate the painter and their prior work before paying. think if its something you really want to do, and maybe you'll get what you paid for, but you might not.

The main thing I dislike about these auctions is:

- they fill up the search results (I try to sell painted stuff on ebay too)
- sooo many photos across multiple auctions are identical ("sample photos"). I'm more a fan of listing something with an actual photo of what you are receiving

Thanks for clearing that up Lukus.

Grot 6 wrote:

Marthike wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

A whole bunch of stuff about... Nothing.

Too bad, get off your high horse and keep the hyperbole to yourself.

The irony of your subpar statements speaks more of your own insecurity then anything anyone else can tell you.

Local painters... nuff said.

Judging by the posts, the only subpar statement would be made by yourself. The fact of the matter is, with the way globalization has changed the way business is done these days, the chinese painters are most likely able to paint at an equal or better quality then your "local painters" for a cheaper cost because their cost of living is much lower. As plenty of others have mentioned, as long as you do your homework and find a reputable outfit, you will be set. Telling someone else to "get off your high horse" when you're saying the chinese stuff is "!@#$ quality" is hilarious. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand if you must but as others have pointed out, doing your research and going to a reputable painting service in china will get you just as good or better results than your "local painters".

It's really easy to filter out those auctions, with an extra step... just limit the search to items located within 2000 - 3000 miles.

Not the best solution... but I have noticed the upsurge, too (not just in painted minis), and I usually am looking to get something faster than it can come from Asia.

If somone does an honest days work for a more reasonable price, why wouldn't you use their services. You save money, they have a job. Everyone is happy.