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Come on Insaniak you know better than that.

The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

You're the one who brought a picture of a vehicle crewman in a cupola into it as proof that the cupola was a hatch...

The thing is, the rhino has multiple hatches on top. And yet GW just said that the passengers use 'the' top hatch. If they had meant for you to use any available hatch, it would have made more sense for them to say so. If they had meant to use the cupola, again, it would have made sense for them to have said so.

By just referring to 'the top hatch' as the fire point, it should be fairly really apparent that they mean the one big hatch that passengers actually have access to.

Yes, the rules aren't designed to be a perfect real world simulation... But that doesn't mean that when we have two potential interpretations, we should go with the absurd one.

If you try to argue that the forward cupola (which is not even always present) is "the top hatch" referred to as the Rhino's fire point, you have no way to prove that it (rather than the large rectangular one) is "the" hatch being referred to. This interpretation creates an unresolvable ambiguity and is thus not practical for play.

If you play that the single large top hatch present on every Rhino is the (singular) "top hatch" described as being the fire point, there is no such issue.

For a similar reference - the Chimera.
I haven't built the kit in about 10 years so I have no idea what options there are for the turret cupola, and since its higher than the passenger compartment people think its the "top hatch".

Aside from "use the passenger compartment" is there a way to resolve the Chimera similar to your Rhino points?

rigeld2 wrote:
I haven't built the kit in about 10 years so I have no idea what options there are for the turret cupola,

Crewman with the Stormbolter/Stubber, or just the hatch. All options are "hatch-like", no equipment mount like the Rhino.

Aside from "use the passenger compartment" is there a way to resolve the Chimera similar to your Rhino points?

Honestly can't think of a RAW way to resolve it. Personally I'd not use anything other than the passenger compartment hatch.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I really do not see it as all that silly, based on the pic I posted earlier.

Put a razorback and a rhino side by side.

There are two differences between these two units. One is in the appearance, and the other in the rules. These two differences are directly related to each other (meaning, the reason for the rule difference is because of the model, and vice versa).

This isn't applying today's understanding of realism to the game. This is applying logic to the game.

EDIT: Ignore the attachment, I was going to post a picture but decided against it, and forgot to get rid of it.

I personally think it is the big doors but I have no problem with people firing from either -- not like a guy couldn't pop the hatch and shoot. One guy at the store has his Chimeras modeled with the turrent on the back and double hatch at the front. Most assume it is the big double hatches.

The previous csm codex specified "large top hatch" or something to that effect. It's quite obvious from a model and rules standpoint that the 2 door hatch near the rear is the firepoint.

Model wise, it's clearly the only hatch large enough for 2 passengers to fire out of.

Rules wise it's a single top hatch. You have 2 forward gun mountings, and a single large set of doors. The rules specify there is only 1 hatch so how could the 2 gun mountings possibly be 1 hatch?

Common sense leads to the single large hatch being the only firepoint since its the only thing there is 1 of and large enough for 2 marines to fire from.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I disagree, as the dude coming out of the hatch on the top of the Rhino in the pic is clearly a "Top Hatch"

So you can see my confusion, because in every Rhino kit, you have options for assembling the two "copulas" (the round holes on the top front of the hull). One of them is always an equipment mount and the other is always a (small) hatch. It's clearly a hatch - it has hinges, but so does the big hatch on the top rear of the Rhino. Game-wise, it's just an issue of where to measure range from and I personally don't care which as long as it's consistent.

But for the record, I don't see how two models could shoot out of the little copula hatch. So I guess it really has to be the rear hatch. Also...what somerandomdude said about Razorbacks.

 insaniak wrote:
You don't think the two passengers might have a bit of a squeeze getting up into the cupola while the vehicle crewman is already there?

Certain SM chapters are trained in etiquette. They can take turns.

The top hatch is where ever you and your opponent decide where the top hatch is, cant decide roll off to see who is less wrong

Thats RAW from the BRB. Pg 4

And completely meaningless in a discussion of the rules. Please see the tenets of YMDC in the sticky thread.