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ph34r wrote:Stop thinking that mainstream loyalist chapters going to chaos is a good idea.

It's not cool.

It's not unique.

It's not clever.

To you maybe.

The Black Templars are one of the most anti-chaos chapters out there.

That still doesn't mean that they are immune to its influence. Chaos corrupts all. In fact, it's stated quite frankly that the GK's are the only chapter without *any* record of *any* brethren having fallen, ergo, that must mean at some point at least one Black Templar, in likelyhood probably more than one, has fallen to Chaos.

Basically... there's no specific fluff to support the idea.

That said, there's really no specific fluff to deny the idea, as they're BT, not GK. Though, given that they're ranging around in elements from "a few" Marines to "a fethload" of Marines on various Crusades, it's not inconceivable that a select few individuals may fall.

Entire Companies? Er... not so likely. At least, not so likely that they would escape the notice of their fellows and then survive long enough to get out into the Imperium at large to do mischief or ultraviolence.

Vaktathi wrote:That still doesn't mean that they are immune to its influence. Chaos corrupts all. In fact, it's stated quite frankly that the GK's are the only chapter without *any* record of *any* brethren having fallen, ergo, that must mean at some point at least one Black Templar, in likelyhood probably more than one, has fallen to Chaos.

Just because the GK book implies that most other chapters may have had members who were influenced by chaos in some way, which by the way is extremely vague and non-supported by more explicit fluff, does not mean that an army worth of extreme anti-psyker marines fell to chaos.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I feel like we've covered this ground before. You can be tainted by Chaos and remain a Loyalist, even if the Imperium is trying to kill you. You have to choose to fall.

And both of these above statements in spite of the tons of fluff explaining events where people, armies and worlds fall to Chaos without ever realizing it until they've already gone and done it?

Such as?

You've got worlds where they're "tricked" into following a demagogue, but that's still "choosing to fall".

No they didn't. Because they didn't know what Chaos well and truly was.

They had some idea, certainly the Emperor and the Sigillite did, the Primarch's knew it well enough to recognize a daemonic possession when they saw it as opposed to it being some other sort of phenomenon.

Yeah, Magnus--the Primarch who should have known exactly what lurks in the Warp--clearly knew what Tzeentch was.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second...

The Emperor seems to be the only one who truly 'knew' what's out there. The Sigilite likely knew, but only because the Emperor explained it to him.

He didn't plan on going to Chaos

That was kinda the point...

--and nor did he go to Chaos until well after the conclusion of the Badab War.

He was pretty much there by the end phases of the Badab war, perhaps not actively realizing it, but definitely there, the behavior they describe is no different than that of Abaddon's Black Legion save for that they just don't have eight pointed stars on everything yet. It just wasn't until after the war that he put a "face" if you will to it.

What behavior? Be specific.

There's very little that he was doing during the Badab War that reeks of Chaos. A lot of it was simply going renegade--but going renegade does not necessarily imply worshiping Chaos.

I'm well aware of Vakthathi's post about "the psychic force of will", but that isn't what keeps the Grey Knights or anyone else who's been exposed to Chaos' whispers from not falling prey to the Ruinous Powers

Note that wasn't the only thing I mentioned. Not only are they possessed of a mighty force of will even for Space Marines, and psychic powers and psychic might to resist, but they also know just about all a mortal mind can know of Chaos, its methods and machinations, and would be far more adept at realizing behavior or patterns associated with Chaos than anyone else. There's the knowledge, the ability, and will that separates the GK's from other marines in that regard.

The knowledge, the ability, the will, and the preparation. That last one is important.

There's no reason one couldn't come up with a perfectly acceptable reason for a force of Black Templars to have fallen to chaos. Violent zealots committing terrible deeds in the name of fanaticism that unknowingly cross the line and don't realize it until they've already become damned, weakened command structure from extended crusading allows temptation and insanity to creep into stressed and unprepared minds, a moment of weakness of the mind when all turns to defeat and one grasps at a weapon of power that has unintended consequences, etc. Even the most fearsome zealot can often times be broken given the right circumstances.

So basically the entirety of it is relying on "Chaos did it!".

Seriously. Can we let these ideas just die? It's not a good sign when you're having to come up with a "reason" and rely upon gods getting involved.

Kanluwen wrote:
Such as?

Half the stories of the inquisition?

You've got worlds where they're "tricked" into following a demagogue, but that's still "choosing to fall".

If by "choosing" you mean being misled and having no idea they are slowly being turned against what they believe sure. And it's not as if the Black Templars would be completely immune to such an event under the right circumstances, they aren't omniscient, they don't have a sixth "Chaos" sense.

Yeah, Magnus--the Primarch who should have known exactly what lurks in the Warp--clearly knew what Tzeentch was.

He may not have had that sort of knowledge, but they knew at least to some extent that powerful and dangerous warp entities existed. Many inquisitors and inquisitorial agents don't necessarily have such explicit knowledge either even though they fight it every day of their lives.

What behavior? Be specific.

There's very little that he was doing during the Badab War that reeks of Chaos. A lot of it was simply going renegade--but going renegade does not necessarily imply worshiping Chaos.

The big thing that resonated with me was how it got so that the human populaces of the worlds that the Astral Claws controlled were punished with blinding for even looking upon an astral claw of any rank, much like the slaves and laborers on Abaddon's Planet Killer are immediately killed if they look upon the Despoiler. The Astral Claws would go out and butcher thousands in unprovoked and pointless raids upon the populace as the loyalist closed in on Badab, etc.

The knowledge, the ability, the will, and the preparation. That last one is important.

Right! And that's not something that the BT's would necessarily have.

So basically the entirety of it is relying on "Chaos did it!".

Not quite. It's that Chaos is...Chaos. It is eternal, it is inevitable, it is insidious and pervasive, and nothing except possibly the Grey Knights can shield themselves entirely from its influence. All it takes is a tiny crack and a window of opportunity for it to bring ruination, you know, the point that the 40k fluff bangs on at every opportunity. The Black Templars are not immune to such things. Resistant? Sure. Less likely than other Space Marines? Sure. Impossible? No. They just need the right push under the right circumstances.

Seriously. Can we let these ideas just die? It's not a good sign when you're having to come up with a "reason" and rely upon gods getting involved.

You mean, like most 40k fluff?

ph34r wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:That still doesn't mean that they are immune to its influence. Chaos corrupts all. In fact, it's stated quite frankly that the GK's are the only chapter without *any* record of *any* brethren having fallen, ergo, that must mean at some point at least one Black Templar, in likelyhood probably more than one, has fallen to Chaos.

Just because the GK book implies that most other chapters may have had members who were influenced by chaos in some way,

I don't have it in front of me but IIRC the Daemonhunter book pretty explicitely stated this.

does not mean that an army worth of extreme anti-psyker marines fell to chaos.

I didn't say it did. Only that it is by no means impossible. To field a 2000pt army, it could be merely half a company of marines or less, not very hard to explain reasonably. They'd fit in wonderfully as a Khornate force. Extreme preference for close combat fighting, an intense hatred of psykers, fanatical zeal, looks like the line between BT and World Eater is merely the foe.

Go with something like

"upon the death of Castellan So-And-So, Chaplain Whats-His-Face took command of the crusade. Burdened by the death of his close friend, and blaming the weakness of other Imperial factions, he drove his marine to ever greater acts of violence to destroy the foe, until one day in the heat of battle the line between friend and foe evaporated, his supposed allies holding back the righteous crusade and thus deserving to be put to the sword. As the Initiates under his command fell under the spell of his mighty oratory, they discarded their longer ranged weapons to hack at the foe with blade and fist, to feel the foes death and the blood of the traitors on their face as they cut down yet more and more of the cowards to sate the blood thirst of the Emperor on his mighty Brass Throne of skulls..."

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Such as?

Half the stories of the inquisition?

Specifics.

I've got a feeling I know which ones you're referring to, but I'd like some specifics.

You've got worlds where they're "tricked" into following a demagogue, but that's still "choosing to fall".

If by "choosing" you mean being misled and having no idea they are slowly being turned against what they believe sure.

You choose to throw your lot in with your commander or a noble lord, who tells his army that he has found this great new deity that talks back to him unlock that jerk God-Emperor.

Seriously. That's usually the way these situations are described to us. Eisenhorn has a great example of this in the Gudrunite Guard founding that he 'liberates' from Glaw.

And it's not as if the Black Templars would be completely immune to such an event under the right circumstances, they aren't omniscient, they don't have a sixth "Chaos" sense.

And what are those circumstances?

A Castellan being corrupted, and somehow being tainted by sorcerous crafts or some other quite absurd situation.

Yeah, Magnus--the Primarch who should have known exactly what lurks in the Warp--clearly knew what Tzeentch was.

He may not have had that sort of knowledge, but they knew at least to some extent that powerful and dangerous warp entities existed.

Funny, because I get the exact opposite from the way that Horus reacts to a possession in "Horus Rising". And from Jonson's reaction to a Daemon being summoned.

Many inquisitors and inquisitorial agents don't necessarily have such explicit knowledge either even though they fight it every day of their lives.

Inquisitorial agents? Yeah, they may not be packing that knowledge--unless they're in the Ordo Malleus.
Inquisitors at large? No, they have a pretty good idea what's lurking in the Warp. Especially the psyker members of the Inquisition and the Ordo Malleus at large.

What behavior? Be specific.

There's very little that he was doing during the Badab War that reeks of Chaos. A lot of it was simply going renegade--but going renegade does not necessarily imply worshiping Chaos.

The big thing that resonated with me was how it got so that the human populaces of the worlds that the Astral Claws controlled were punished with blinding for even looking upon an astral claw of any rank, much like the slaves and laborers on Abaddon's Planet Killer are immediately killed if they look upon the Despoiler. The Astral Claws would go out and butcher thousands in unprovoked and pointless raids upon the populace as the loyalist closed in on Badab, etc.

That really has nothing to do with the Black Legion or Chaos though. That kind of stuff is common when you want to portray people as "evil".

The knowledge, the ability, the will, and the preparation. That last one is important.

Right! And that's not something that the BT's would necessarily have.

Says who?

The biggest part of the "preparation" for the Grey Knights is the layered wards in their armor and in some clases branded/tattooed on their flesh. It's the most tangible and immediately recognizable part of their preparation for fighting the forces of Chaos.

Did you know that the Relic Armor for Deathwatch, only usable by Black Templars, is a set(one of three) of Artificer armor crafted to be worn by 'Witchkiller'?

It's layered with the same kinds of wards that Aegis armor has, and even has a consecrated blade that is mounted within the wrist of the armor's gauntlet.

So basically the entirety of it is relying on "Chaos did it!".

Not quite. It's that Chaos is...Chaos. It is eternal, it is inevitable, it is insidious and pervasive, and nothing except possibly the Grey Knights can shield themselves entirely from its influence. All it takes is a tiny crack and a window of opportunity for it to bring ruination, you know, the point that the 40k fluff bangs on at every opportunity. The Black Templars are not immune to such things. Resistant? Sure. Less likely than other Space Marines? Sure. Impossible? No. They just need the right push under the right circumstances.

And when "the right circumstances" are "breaking the canon that we have right now"--there's a problem.

Seriously. Can we let these ideas just die? It's not a good sign when you're having to come up with a "reason" and rely upon gods getting involved.

You mean, like most 40k fluff?

No, I mean like pretty much every single "How can I work X to fall to Chaos?" thread.

ph34r wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:That still doesn't mean that they are immune to its influence. Chaos corrupts all. In fact, it's stated quite frankly that the GK's are the only chapter without *any* record of *any* brethren having fallen, ergo, that must mean at some point at least one Black Templar, in likelihood probably more than one, has fallen to Chaos.

Just because the GK book implies that most other chapters may have had members who were influenced by chaos in some way,

I don't have it in front of me but IIRC the Daemonhunter book pretty explicitly stated this.

This is a perfect example of bad quoting.

does not mean that an army worth of extreme anti-psyker marines fell to chaos.

I didn't say it did. Only that it is by no means impossible. To field a 2000pt army, it could be merely half a company of marines or less, not very hard to explain reasonably. They'd fit in wonderfully as a Khornate force. Extreme preference for close combat fighting, an intense hatred of psykers, fanatical zeal, looks like the line between BT and World Eater is merely the foe.

Ph34r's statement, which you should have quoted all at once rather than breaking up and completely ruining, is that "Just because the GK book implies that most other Chapters may have had members who were influenced by Chaos in some way does not mean that an army worth of extreme anti-psyker marines fell to Chaos".

For Khorne to work you need "mindless violence" these days. Gone are the examples of Khorne being the Power associated with combat in all its forms, he's now just the patron of mindless brutality.

Go with something like

"upon the death of Castellan So-And-So, Chaplain Whats-His-Face took command of the crusade. Burdened by the death of his close friend, and blaming the weakness of other Imperial factions, he drove his marine to ever greater acts of violence to destroy the foe, until one day in the heat of battle the line between friend and foe evaporated, his supposed allies holding back the righteous crusade and thus deserving to be put to the sword. As the Initiates under his command fell under the spell of his mighty oratory, they discarded their longer ranged weapons to hack at the foe with blade and fist, to feel the foes death and the blood of the traitors on their face as they cut down yet more and more of the cowards to sate the blood thirst of the Emperor on his mighty Brass Throne of skulls..."

OR we can just go with "let the idea die and go with something that isn't patently ridiculous".

I guess I'll just get back to the point of "why is it so patently ridiculous"? Chaos has been shown to corrupt pretty much anything and everything, that's why it's so dangerous, that's why the Imperium is so paranoid about it, and that's why it is the forces of Chaos that have historically been the Imperium's greatest enemy. There is nothing to suggest that the BT's are completely immune to corruption and the influence of Chaos, such a notion is in fact much more ridiculous given the nature of Chaos and its stature as the primary enemy of the Imperium of Man than to have a small force of fallen BT's.

I'm not saying it's Canon that a ton of BT's fell to Chaos, but that it is by no means impossible that some have and even those amongst the most devout and loyal servants of the Imperium have fallen to madness and Chaos. If someone wanted to make the force, it could be done in such a way as to be believable and fitting. If Ecclesiarchy cardinals, Primarchs, and entire chapters and legions of Space Marines can be corrupted, certainly Black Templars, who are by no means in any way a specialized anti-psyker or anti-chaos force (in fact, if anything, their most routine enemy are Orks), are vulnerable to some extent as well.

We haven't had entire Chapters fall to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.

Ecclesiarchy Cardinals are "simply human", and in many cases they turn for very selfish reasons.

Simply because the Black Templars routinely fight Orks and aren't "anti-psyker"(debatable, since they do in Deathwatch have quite a few anti-psyker tricks like the armor I mentioned) or "anti-chaos" does not mean that they're somehow susceptible to Chaos' predations.
Strength of will and faith are their weapons--and they wield them well.
I view the same about the instances of the Sororitas being corrupted, in that when we've seen them being "corrupted"--they're not actually "Fallen" 99.99999% of the time.

The flesh can be broken, but the spirit can't.

Kanluwen wrote:We haven't had entire Chapters fall to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2007 would disagree, it says about 50 chapters have done so. (at work, so don't have a page number, but I remember that passage fairly clearly)

Ecclesiarchy Cardinals are "simply human", and in many cases they turn for very selfish reasons.

And some turn for what they see are the right reasons until they've already gone over the edge. In many cases their faith is just as ironclad as any Space Marine. Yes, there are definitely some that aren't exactly spiritual paragons but some are.

Simply because the Black Templars routinely fight Orks and aren't "anti-psyker"(debatable, since they do in Deathwatch have quite a few anti-psyker tricks like the armor I mentioned) or "anti-chaos" does not mean that they're somehow susceptible to Chaos' predations.

Everything is susceptible to the predations of Chaos, that's sorta one of the core concepts. They may be more resistant than others, but again, not immune. Only the Grey Knights can claim that, it's sorta their special "thing".

Strength of will and faith are their weapons--and they wield them well.
I view the same about the instances of the Sororitas being corrupted, in that when we've seen them being "corrupted"--they're not actually "Fallen" 99.99999% of the time.

I'm not aware of any off the top of my head really actually, though I attribute that more to authors not wanting to tackle that more than anything else, as stories with the SoB tend to often result in greater instances of nerdrage than other factions, and many SoB stories actually don't involve Chaos but rather other foes entirely (necrons, unsanctioned but not necessarily chaotic psykers, tyranids, etc).

That said, over thousands of years with thousands upon thousands of marines over thousands of crusades, small odds add up. In ten thousand years, longer than the entirety of current recorded human history, that thousands upon thousands of warriors constantly engaged in battle and bloodshed against an insidious enemy that attacks the soul and the mind couldn't possibly have had some small group break?

The flesh can be broken, but the spirit can't.

Which again, Chaos has proven over and over that it can and does.

Don't listen to the Imperialist lies. They worship at the altar of the False Emperor and deny the power and lure of Chaos.

If you want your Black Templar to turn to Chaos, go for it. They're your models, and anyone who tells you that you can't do it can buy and paint a new army for you.

Same goes for Grey Knights.

Ch40s wrote:Any thought and opinions are welcomed. I need help with working on the rules for the Sword Brethren mainly, we think we have the fluff and stuff worked out for the Land Raider Crusader and the weapons, just the Sword Brethren we are kind of scratching our heads for what rules to work with them.

Have you considered Chosen? With all of the options available to Chaos Chosen, it's not difficult to imagine that there are various "sects" of Chosen. For example, those who prefer close combat and use power weapons, psykers who use a variety of weapons (expressed as flamers, plasma guns, power weapons, etc.) or ranged forces preferring plasma rifles and bolters.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:We haven't had entire Chapters fall to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2007 would disagree, it says about 50 chapters have done so. (at work, so don't have a page number, but I remember that passage fairly clearly)

It's on page 18, and it doesn't actually say that it's certain that they have. It says that "Though there are no complete accounts even in the archives of the Inquisition, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy".

My big beef with that is on the very next story--it talks about how "Desertion amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes is extremely uncommon" and describes (quite rightly, I think) the big ways that Marines can fall--which all involve no Chaplain being present. Considering the Black Templars always have been described as having multiple Chaplains in their forces, and the Chaplains have a kind of "understudy" in the forces, that makes for a reaaaaaaaaaaally sketchy way to do it.

Ecclesiarchy Cardinals are "simply human", and in many cases they turn for very selfish reasons.

And some turn for what they see are the right reasons until they've already gone over the edge. In many cases their faith is just as ironclad as any Space Marine. Yes, there are definitely some that aren't exactly spiritual paragons but some are.

The big issue is that many of the Ecclesiarchy Cardinals that we've seen "turn", that weren't selfish jerks to begin with, turned because they were 'tricked'(I have a hard time accepting this, because when you start having visions that tell you to spread plagues throughout the Underhive and commit mass sacrifices, you should be thinking "Hrmh, something's not right here...") into believing that they were founding a new Cult worshiping the Emperor.

Simply because the Black Templars routinely fight Orks and aren't "anti-psyker"(debatable, since they do in Deathwatch have quite a few anti-psyker tricks like the armor I mentioned) or "anti-chaos" does not mean that they're somehow susceptible to Chaos' predations.

Everything is susceptible to the predations of Chaos, that's sorta one of the core concepts. They may be more resistant than others, but again, not immune. Only the Grey Knights can claim that, it's sorta their special "thing".

Immunity comes in different flavors.

The Grey Knights can be entirely incorruptible, never even hearing the whispers of the Ruinous Powers.
The Black Templars can be entirely incorruptible as well, but they're going to be hearing those whispers and flatout rejecting them.

It's a point of semantics, sure--but it's not necessarily a bad one.

Strength of will and faith are their weapons--and they wield them well.
I view the same about the instances of the Sororitas being corrupted, in that when we've seen them being "corrupted"--they're not actually "Fallen" 99.99999% of the time.

I'm not aware of any off the top of my head really actually, though I attribute that more to authors not wanting to tackle that more than anything else, as stories with the SoB tend to often result in greater instances of nerdrage than other factions, and many SoB stories actually don't involve Chaos but rather other foes entirely (necrons, unsanctioned but not necessarily chaotic psykers, tyranids, etc).

Kanluwen wrote:
It's on page 18, and it doesn't actually say that it's certain that they have. It says that "Though there are no complete accounts even in the archives of the Inquisition, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy".

Which is about as close as we're going to get on that subject. Certainly there's enought to invalidate the claim the *no* chapters have gone to Chaos since the Heresy.

My big beef with that is on the very next story--it talks about how "Desertion amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes is extremely uncommon" and describes (quite rightly, I think) the big ways that Marines can fall--which all involve no Chaplain being present. Considering the Black Templars always have been described as having multiple Chaplains in their forces, and the Chaplains have a kind of "understudy" in the forces, that makes for a reaaaaaaaaaaally sketchy way to do it.

Chaplains can be killed, for such forces in constant combat with such leaders constantly at the front, attrition can be very high. It's not in any way inconceivable that they could have been killed and the remaining forces led astray.

Chaplains also are not themselves completely immune. Very resistant, but it's not impossible for one to be possessed or corrupted. IIRC Exactly this happened in the Ultramarines movie

The big issue is that many of the Ecclesiarchy Cardinals that we've seen "turn", that weren't selfish jerks to begin with, turned because they were 'tricked'(I have a hard time accepting this, because when you start having visions that tell you to spread plagues throughout the Underhive and commit mass sacrifices, you should be thinking "Hrmh, something's not right here...") into believing that they were founding a new Cult worshiping the Emperor.

They generally don't start off with the whole 'spread plagues' thing, it gradually builds up to that after the mind has been infiltrated and worked upon for a while. This exact thing happens to Space Marines as well, no reason it couldn't wear down a force of Black Templars over many years on extended campaign given the right circumstances.

Immunity comes in different flavors.

The Grey Knights can be entirely incorruptible, never even hearing the whispers of the Ruinous Powers.

They still hear it, at least according to the GK codex, they just have the strength of mind and will to ignore it and in some cases block it out.

The Black Templars can be entirely incorruptible as well, but they're going to be hearing those whispers and flatout rejecting them.

Except that's what it describes the GK as doing. The BT's likewise don't really have the knowledge and training to necessarily know what those messages/whispers/dreams are, especially not at the lower ranks.

We had the Bloodtide, where the Sisters were corrupted and some remained untainted.

I'd have to re-read the story again, most of what I remember is the sillyness of the GK's part in the story.

We had Vraks, where several Sisters had been kept for the entirety of the war as prisoners and were executed afterwards as "morally corrupted"--mostly so Rex could dick over the Ordo Hereticus for having tied his hands during the war.

Right but those don't really count, the story doesn't really give the actual state of the sisters in question, rather that their execution was a political event ostensibly because the potential risk of freeing them was simply too great.

But we're not talking about "some small group". We're talking about enough to form a warband--and that's incredibly long odds when it comes to the Templars.

Again however, given an appropriate backstory and ten thousand years to work with, and a force that's likely to be roughly half a company, not out of the realm of possibility at all. Lost their chaplains in battle, started crossing lines they otherwise wouldnt' have, lines become blurred, start getting strange new ideas, things lead to things...

If you can find anything on a traitor Templar, I'd love to see it. We've got Traitor Space Wolves, a Traitor from the Sons of Guilleman(he's in the Chaos Marines 2007 book, p.18), Traitor Dark Angels--but we've yet to see a traitor Templar.

that doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means they haven't written about it. I don't recall a traitor White Scar, Red Scorpion, Space Shark or Angel of Absolution off the top of my head either. That doesn't mean it can't happen to them.

there is no reason they couldn't fall to chaos.

the whole imperium grim dark 40k setting is in fact about chaos trying to corrupt and take over the entire universe, and no one is safe from it. Not just physically chaos coming and killing you, but chaos corrupting and perverting your ideals.

All of the original legions that now openly worship chaos were the fanatical legions of their time.

There's nothing in the established background to make it impossible for the Black Templars to fall; indeed their flaws and failings are made plain - puritanism and pride. The Black Templars might well believe themselves incorruptible, but it's a commonplace of the setting for excessive pride in one's own purity of heart to lead down the road to damnation.

Ch40s wrote: We even had an idea for fluff involving the new Dreadnoughts, which was in their skewed ideals that the younger and more "fit" marines should be inside them not veteran marines and the old marines were ripped out of their sarcophagus and left to die on the deck watching the younger and insane marines be put inside. Still able to use the insane rule for the Dreadnoughts, just they have it because they want to cause as much damage and deaths before they too are deemed to old and are ripped out and left to die for someone younger.
Ch40s

Well don't the forces of chaos hate being in a dreadnought so id say keep older and weaker ones in the dreadnought for some kind of punishment

Two ways I can think of. Their Chaplain could die, which would make them more susceptible. In his death they could fly into a fit of rage and go over the edge, or their attempts to remain pure cause them to go over the edge.
Or, they could be corrupted in a similar way to the Word Bearers. They're betrayed by a faction of the Imperium, perhaps another chapter of Asartes who dislike their zealotry. Whilst in this state they could be seduced by Chaos when their ship is stuck in the Warp, or they go on a crusade seeking answers and end up recovering a corrupt artifact that does the same thing.
It's fairly obvious that there's no reason they can't fall to Chaos, like the Grey Knights for example. They're just Astartes, stupidly loyal Astartes, but that is their only defense. Isn't this one of the key themes of 40k? Great heroes being corrupted?

biccat wrote:Don't listen to the Imperialist lies. They worship at the altar of the False Emperor and deny the power and lure of Chaos.

If you want your Black Templar to turn to Chaos, go for it. They're your models, and anyone who tells you that you can't do it can buy and paint a new army for you.

Same goes for Grey Knights.

Have you considered Chosen? With all of the options available to Chaos Chosen, it's not difficult to imagine that there are various "sects" of Chosen. For example, those who prefer close combat and use power weapons, psykers who use a variety of weapons (expressed as flamers, plasma guns, power weapons, etc.) or ranged forces preferring plasma rifles and bolters.

Thank you for helping will look into that.

SSsilverskullSS wrote:

Ch40s wrote: We even had an idea for fluff involving the new Dreadnoughts, which was in their skewed ideals that the younger and more "fit" marines should be inside them not veteran marines and the old marines were ripped out of their sarcophagus and left to die on the deck watching the younger and insane marines be put inside. Still able to use the insane rule for the Dreadnoughts, just they have it because they want to cause as much damage and deaths before they too are deemed to old and are ripped out and left to die for someone younger.
Ch40s

Well don't the forces of chaos hate being in a dreadnought so id say keep older and weaker ones in the dreadnought for some kind of punishment

Well I could have sworn I read somewhere that dreadnoughts were immune to falling, but I may have misread that is why I was doing the whole ripping out the old marines and putting in tainted marines.

iproxtaco wrote:Two ways I can think of. Their Chaplain could die, which would make them more susceptible. In his death they could fly into a fit of rage and go over the edge, or their attempts to remain pure cause them to go over the edge.
Or, they could be corrupted in a similar way to the Word Bearers. They're betrayed by a faction of the Imperium, perhaps another chapter of Asartes who dislike their zealotry. Whilst in this state they could be seduced by Chaos when their ship is stuck in the Warp, or they go on a crusade seeking answers and end up recovering a corrupt artifact that does the same thing.
It's fairly obvious that there's no reason they can't fall to Chaos, like the Grey Knights for example. They're just Astartes, stupidly loyal Astartes, but that is their only defense. Isn't this one of the key themes of 40k? Great heroes being corrupted?

I actually never field Chaplains in my army anyhow they always die before they serve any purpose other than cannon fodder so I gave them to my friend and he did some chaos conversions on them for his army.

Thank you for the help!!

biccat wrote:Same goes for Grey Knights.

Ah, looks like you are one of Those Guys.

ph34r wrote:

biccat wrote:Same goes for Grey Knights.

Ah, looks like you are one of Those Guys.

Hey look its "that guy" who apparently knows everything about 40k fluff.

Yes BT can fall to chaos. Yes GK can be corrupted but no GK has been "recorded" to become fallen yet.
40k universe is big enough for anyone, anywhere to be corrupted and similarly, take up the banner of chaos. Unless your organization is so small that it would instantly be obvious and the culprit terminated, eg. demonhunters (no, not grey knights, demon hunters. Wardhammer is a separate universe from Warhammer.)

coolyo294 wrote:Touche my good sir. But I still think this idea is stupid.

I love Black Templars and I dont like the idea of them falling to chaos, so i have to also say, the idea is stupid

It would make much more sense for them to go renegade rather than Chaos. I can definitely see some codex chapter getting in the way of one of their crusades and it creating a lot of strife within the Imperium.


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Their zeal is definitely a possibility for Chaos thoug. These guys really hate the enemies of the Emperor, and I can possibly see them getting lost in it to accomplish an end.

Rather than bicker about Grey Knights and Black Templars being able to fall to Chaos, I got an idea.

Paint your army as Word Bearers, who are an extremely fanatical and pious legion for the Dark Gods. They have the extreme faith in common with the Black Templars. If anybody gives you gak for not having your models painted white and black they probably aren't the kind of people you want to play with. As long as they are well painted and you obviously put time into it, why not?