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Hi, I too am converting my Black Templars to Chaos and my friends and I were wondering about rules for units such as the Sword Brethren, Land Raider Crusader and more of the modern weaponry. We had an idea for fluff involving the Chaos god Slaanesh and this group's obsession of staying young forever, hatred of older and "weaker" marines. We even had an idea for fluff involving the new Dreadnoughts, which was in their skewed ideals that the younger and more "fit" marines should be inside them not veteran marines and the old marines were ripped out of their sarcophagus and left to die on the deck watching the younger and insane marines be put inside. Still able to use the insane rule for the Dreadnoughts, just they have it because they want to cause as much damage and deaths before they too are deemed to old and are ripped out and left to die for someone younger.

Any thought and opinions are welcomed. I need help with working on the rules for the Sword Brethren mainly, we think we have the fluff and stuff worked out for the Land Raider Crusader and the weapons, just the Sword Brethren we are kind of scratching our heads for what rules to work with them.

Cheers,
Ch40s

No. Black Templars don't fall to Chaos.

People said the same thing about Horus before he killed his fellow Primarchs

Touche my good sir. But I still think this idea is stupid.

Maybe they decided that all psykers have to die and went about killing sanctionites, then the lords of terra banished them?
One thing leads to another, chaos gets some new friends.
However, BT definitely wouldn't fall to Tzeencth, I'd say if any, they'd fall to Khorne.

They don't actually have to actually be Black Templars, they could just use their ruleset and have the background you've started.

coolyo294 wrote:No. Black Templars don't fall to Chaos.

Um, there's certainly no reason they couldn't any more than other marines.

They could very easily end up slowly going to ever further extremes of violence and falling to Khorne, their preference for close combat and utter hatred of psykers certainly lends itself well to that.

Yeah...not so sure about heretical Black Templars. A chapter of fiery zealots falling? That would make no sense. A GM tried that before in Dark Heresy...now I GM. You could use their ideas and type of warfare sure but not to much the actual BT chapter.
If it was an offshoot of the templars that were less fiery that didn't know how to fit into the whole codex astartes thing that might work as traitors who eventually became heretics over the course of lifetimes.

I am only wanting to do it because I have a decent sized BT army with the pewter Sword Brethren and after reading a few lines from their Codex like "Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Templars are at the exreme end of independence from the Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element." To me that still means there is a lingering doubt about them from the Imperial point of view. Also this excerpt "but in most cases, they keep their own counsel as to where and when they will make war - a fact that gives many in the Imperium great cause for concern."

Now we could ditch the demon thing and all that and instead, make them a rogue space marine unit, but *shrugs*

Cheers,
Ch40s

It would make sense if they were Soul Drinker style renegades.

I forgot about the Soul Drinkers, I actually read that huge novel about their casting out from the Imperium. How would you make a chapter like that? I thought it was only Chaos or Imperium and that is it.
How would I go about doing this?

Cheers,
Ch40s

They would still be loyal to the Emperor, not the loyal to the Imperium.

So nothing then really changes? They are still part of the Imperium or are they cast aways? Do they follow the same rules as Space Marines other than they cannot be on the same side as a "loyal" chapter or??

Soul Drinkers were neutral......

Soul Drinkers are loyal renegades.

coolyo294 wrote:Soul Drinkers are loyal renegades.

That cancels each other out. So they are neutral Renegades. Kinda like the Grey Knights.

Akroma06 wrote:Yeah...not so sure about heretical Black Templars. A chapter of fiery zealots falling? That would make no sense.

That's exactly how many *DO* fall to Chaos if you've read your fluff. They often go further and further with their zealotry until their methods and actions are indistinguishable from that of their enemy. The first rule of the fanatic is that to defeat the enemy you must *become* the enemy. Once their actions are indistinguishable from that of their foes all that differs is the targets, which can start to overlap and converge. If you replaced a GM for something like that, which has multiple fluff examples, then that's quite silly.


As others said, the Luna Wolves were once without question loyal to the death and even beyond to the Emperor, to the point that Rogal Dorn was prepard to kill the messenger of their rebellion for treason. Now they are the Black Legion, reavers of the Eye of Terror. The Emperor's Children were unquestioningly steadfast in their devotion to the Emperor, such that only they were allowed to wear the Aquila on their armor during the Heresy. Now they are depraved and fanatical groups of insane ravagers. Erebus built grand cathedrals to the Glory of the Emperor and was by far the most senior advocate of the Emperor-as-Diety cult, now his warriors crusade in the name of the Dark Gods as he isolates himself delving into the mysteries of the Warp.


With the Black Templars, you have a faction that is extremely fanatical in destroying whatever they see as "the enemy". They have a heavy preference for close combat and an extreme dislike and distrust of even necessary Psykers. Not so far from say, the World Eaters, except for that the World Eaters see pretty much everything as "the enemy".

I have to completely agree that you would never see BT heretics, now renegades makes sence, it even states on the inside of the back cover that the BT refuse to send the Amy of geneseed as other chapters so that makes the Imperium have doubts a out them, that and the fact they do what they want when thy want. But they are so zealous thy don't go to chaos, if even 1 brother looked as if there was any way he could turn they would kill him no questions asked. That's why renegades fits they would just gallop around the galaxy on their crusades just like they do now and would do the dirty work then disappear before any imperials showed up.

coolyo294 wrote:

My joke just flew over didn't it?

Asking for fluff about the BT falling would be like the Grey Knights falling. I could see certain groups not wanting anything to do with them because they are so extreme, but out and out banishment would make several other SM chapters ticked not least of which would be the Imperial Fists (who are based on Terra).
@ Vaktathi: Many fall to Chaos because they were tricked by the Chaos Gods. BT hunt those who have fallen and purposefully do certain things to prevent themselves from becoming the next Horus. The main thing is being seperate from each other in crusades.
Yes they do keep seperate council but still give their tithes of gene seed and do nothing heretical. They just don't like psykers as they are all weaker than the Emperor and can bring chaos to the materium.
The OP asked about them falling to chaos...which I gave a "decent" answer to before.
Renegades because of ideological differences...maybe, heretics who follow chaos...nope.

Also refering to the Soul Drinkers, their leader had been mutated by Chaos was he not? His "half-arachnid body".

Cheers,
Ch40s

BT falling to chaos?!? NEVER!!! You better try with GK next time... LOL!


All shall burn for just thinking about Black Templars falling to chaos!

Akroma06 wrote:Asking for fluff about the BT falling would be like the Grey Knights falling.

How? they don't have the psychic force of will, many if not most don't know the greater details of the warp or the chaos gods, and there have been many other SM's who have been just as fanatically loyal that fell. The GK's have a willpower reinforced by psychic might and a knowledge base that no Black Templar would have.

@ Vaktathi: Many fall to Chaos because they were tricked by the Chaos Gods.

And so could the BT be similarly tricked. The path to damnation is slow and subtle, the road to hell paved with good intentions. Look at Huron, who began his rebellion to ensure that his realm would be able to adequately protect it's assigned area and ended up pulling thousands of marines into treason and hundres, eventually thousands to Chaos.

BT hunt those who have fallen and purposefully do certain things to prevent themselves from becoming the next Horus. The main thing is being seperate from each other in crusades.

And a crusade could become slowly corrupted over long decades of campaigning or lose it's critical leaders and have untested troops over promoted without proper training and appraisals to ensure fit in order to keep the ranks filled, leading to weaker leadership adn greater susceptibility to corruption.

Yes they do keep seperate council but still give their tithes of gene seed and do nothing heretical. They just don't like psykers as they are all weaker than the Emperor and can bring chaos to the materium.

Their codex very clearly states they outright detest them and consider psychic powers a *curse*, and that they only employ those who have been properly repentent of their curse and are severly watched and restricted.


There is nothing in any fluff anywhere to suggest the BT's are immune to falling to Chaos. There are plenty of other chapters who can be seen as just as loyal and fanatical that have had members fall, the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves, etc. If anything, their righteous zealotry may in fact make it even more likely in certain situations.

n0t_u wrote:They don't actually have to actually be Black Templars, they could just use their ruleset and have the background you've started.

So they would be a "generic" style marines they just follows a similar codex as the BTs and then have them fall to Chaos and use the fluff we have worked out? Just of course remove those pretty Sword Brethren lol.

I really am just bored of playing the Stoic defenders of the Imperium, the Eldar I never had much luck with, we have 5 Orc players in our group already (even though I really, really like them) and I really don't want to have to go out and buy a whole new army. Which is why I was wanting to do something different with the marines I have.

Cheers,
Ch40s

Let's put it terms those that are not Templars would understand, if a Templar were to even feel like he were being tricked by chaos they would pull their chain sword out and jab it into their neck!! Gray knights might be psychally resistant, but the BT are more alike with Custodes and more immune to psychic than other chapters, then like i said before say their feeling weak theyll walk on over to the Million chaplains the chapter has and say brother kill me. Don't know about you but I am pretty sure that having any psychic is more likely and dangerous to the powers of the warp, then no psychic at all. Therefore BT = the Emperors most faithful and zealous of servants I mean cumin all a BT does is pray (to the Emperor not some freak god of chaos) train, fight, pray, pray some more, have some Prayer for breakfast, train a bit more, pray again, go have a crusade but not without praying first, then during fighting go ahead and pray some more, then finish killing the alien, mutant, and heretic, then for good measure pray over their enemies bodies, then pray on the way back to the ship where they pray thanking the emperor for a good day, pray some more at night, then start the next day with some more prayer.

Ch40s wrote:People said the same thing about Horus before he killed his fellow Primarchs

No they didn't. Because they didn't know what Chaos well and truly was.

And quite frankly: the idea of Black Templars turning to Chaos is as ridiculous as Grey Knights falling.

I'm well aware of Vakthathi's post about "the psychic force of will", but that isn't what keeps the Grey Knights or anyone else who's been exposed to Chaos' whispers from not falling prey to the Ruinous Powers. Huron's a terrible example, I might add. He didn't plan on going to Chaos--and nor did he go to Chaos until well after the conclusion of the Badab War.
The Ruinous Powers may have protected him from dying, but that doesn't mean he was praying to them to do it.

I feel like we've covered this ground before. You can be tainted by Chaos and remain a Loyalist, even if the Imperium is trying to kill you. You have to choose to fall.

There's no fluff-supported way to do this, really, but there's nothing stopping you from using your BT minis as a "counts as" CSM army.

You just won't get any of the nifty BT-only rules, since you're not a BT army any more.

Cain wrote: Let's put it terms those that are not Templars would understand, if a Templar were to even feel like he were being tricked by chaos they would pull their chain sword out and jab it into their neck!!

You mean just like the story in the CSM codex about the World Eater

Kanluwen wrote:
I feel like we've covered this ground before. You can be tainted by Chaos and remain a Loyalist, even if the Imperium is trying to kill you. You have to choose to fall.

And both of these above statements in spite of the tons of fluff explaining events where people, armies and worlds fall to Chaos without ever realizing it until they've already gone and done it?

No they didn't. Because they didn't know what Chaos well and truly was.

They had some idea, certainly the Emperor and the Sigillite did, they Primarch's knew it well enough to recognize a daemonic possession when they saw it as opposed to it being some other sort of phenomenon.

He didn't plan on going to Chaos

That was kinda the point...

--and nor did he go to Chaos until well after the conclusion of the Badab War.

He was pretty much there by the end phases of the Badab war, perhaps not actively realizing it, but definitely there, the behavior they describe is no different than that of Abaddon's Black Legion save for that they just don't have eight pointed stars on everything yet. It just wasn't until after the war that he put a "face" if you will to it.

I'm well aware of Vakthathi's post about "the psychic force of will", but that isn't what keeps the Grey Knights or anyone else who's been exposed to Chaos' whispers from not falling prey to the Ruinous Powers

Note that wasn't the only thing I mentioned. Not only are they possessed of a mighty force of will even for Space Marines, and pyschic powers and psychic might to resist, but they also know just about all a mortal mind can know of Chaos, it's methods and machinations, and would be far more adept at realizing behavior or patterns associated with Chaos than anyone else. There's the knowledge, the ability, and will that separates the GK's from other marines in that regard.

There's no reason one couldn't come up with a perfectly acceptable reason for a force of Black Templars to have fallen to chaos. Violent zealots committing terrible deeds in the name of fanaticism that unknowingly cross the line and don't realize it until they've already become damned, weakened command structure from extended crusading allows temptation and insanity to creep into stressed and unprepared minds, a moment of weakness of the mind when all turns to defeat and one grasps at a weapon of power that has unintended consequences, etc. Even the most fearsome zealot can often times be broken given the right circumstances.

Stop thinking that mainstream loyalist chapters going to chaos is a good idea.

It's not cool.

It's not unique.

It's not clever.

The Black Templars are one of the most anti-chaos chapters out there.

Just say no.