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It was already predicted that if humanity didn't get wiped out by Horus that war would rage on. Eventually leading to the collapse of the galaxy and getting taken over by the forces of chaos. Chaos could mean another race, I don't recall every seeing specific references. Chaos Daemons or Chaos space marines.

Truthfully I think the all the races are doomed with the release of finecast models....

XCom wrote:It was already predicted that if humanity didn't get wiped out by Horus that war would rage on. Eventually leading to the collapse of the galaxy and getting taken over by the forces of chaos.

'Predicted' by some untrustworthy xenos whose hamfisted intervention helped to bring about the future they most feared.

Ignore the other rabble of the universe.

In reality, the Pony Legions control all factions within what you consider your reality.

When the various xenos, tratior, and Imperial forces are laid low, the Pony Legions will descend from on nigh and sweep the defeated from existance and claim their rightful place as masters of all and nothing.

So that's why they still have Rough Riders...
Infiltration for the win.

English Assassin wrote:
'Predicted' by some untrustworthy xenos whose hamfisted intervention helped to bring about the future they most feared.

It hasn't come about yet. Chaos is not yet triumphant.


I'd say humanity will prevail seeing as how humanity's goal at the moment is survival. The Imperium may fall, but humanity shall endure. The Orks as well, I guess, since they're unlikely to be eradicated and mainly want a good fight.

My friend and I discussed this recently, and we came to this conclusion:

The orks would realize that there is much more fighting against nids and necrons, so they would side with the Imperium, since trouble tends to follow the imperium.

The Eldar would be slowly wiped out, and any remaining Eldar would join with the Imperium, or risk total annihilation. They want to save their people, so if an opportunity arises to do that, they would. Joining the Imperium would save them, although they would have to worship the Emprah.

Dark Eldar would be wiped out. No questions asked.

Orks would destroy the Necrons, like they were designed to do.

Tau would be absorbed by the Imperium.

The new Imperium would then utterly destroy the nids, and chaos will be chaos.

Chaos Marines would die. Daemons would be there, but practically harmless.

Imperium wins. The end.

Oh, and Squats will return.

Hardly any of that makes sense.
Firstly, the Orkz aren't a unified race that makes central decisions like you seem to think, and its assuming the Imperium would accept an alliance, which they would not.

The Eldar thing is also unlikely. They're antonymous, they have safe havens, their Craftworlds are hard to detect, there's no need to ask help, they'd rather die.

The Dark Eldar are likewise, hard to detect, and are growing in numbers. Good luck trying to find and then take Cammoragh.

The Orkz aren't unified, the Necrons are, and have demonstrated in the past that they're more than capable of scouring the entire galaxy of life. The Orkz pose significantly less resistance than the Old Ones and Eldar did.

The Tau would be exterminated before they're absorbed. Their technology would be seized, that's as far as it goes.

Good luck with that. Something major has to happen before the Imperium can easily destroy a threat like the Tyranids, which haven't even fully arrived yet.

Please, do explain how Chaos just ceases to exist. Providing humanity survives, which will happen according to this, Chaos will always survive.

Between a full necron tomb awakening and the fractured imperium beset on all sides by enemies and their own enemies withing, nercons.

As to who could win the overall battle, the only ones who could are the orks if they unified.

iproxtaco wrote:Hardly any of that makes sense.
Firstly, the Orkz aren't a unified race that makes central decisions like you seem to think, and its assuming the Imperium would accept an alliance, which they would not.

The Eldar thing is also unlikely. They're antonymous, they have safe havens, their Craftworlds are hard to detect, there's no need to ask help, they'd rather die.

The Dark Eldar are likewise, hard to detect, and are growing in numbers. Good luck trying to find and then take Cammoragh.

The Orkz aren't unified, the Necrons are, and have demonstrated in the past that they're more than capable of scouring the entire galaxy of life. The Orkz pose significantly less resistance than the Old Ones and Eldar did.

The Tau would be exterminated before they're absorbed. Their technology would be seized, that's as far as it goes.

Good luck with that. Something major has to happen before the Imperium can easily destroy a threat like the Tyranids, which haven't even fully arrived yet.

Please, do explain how Chaos just ceases to exist. Providing humanity survives, which will happen according to this, Chaos will always survive.

Orkz, tribe by tribe, and not at once, would realize that they would get to have more fun in the Imperium. Individual Warbosses would realize this, and act as mercenaries (which several orks already do). The Imperium would not accept an "Alliance" per say, but they would hire the orks as mercenaries to send them on suicide missions, which going after Necrons pretty much would be.

The Eldar are trying to save their people. Craftworlds are hard to detect, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Eldar are dying faster than they can reproduce. They will not needlessly end their civilization if there is an alternative.

Dark Eldar, like Eldar, are dying out (Unless I'm mistaken. I don't have the DE Codex).

Again, Orks would become mercenaries on an individual basis. If they are all sent on the same mission, and are promised equal pay, then they will unite in a massive WAAAGH.

You're probably right about the Tau.

Chaos would not cease to exist. The amount of Chaos Marines dying compared to the amount of new Chaos Marines is substantial. There are more Chaos Marines dying than there are joining. They are losing a war of attrition with the Imperium, and they will eventually be wiped out. Demons will always remain.

I doubt it would happen on such a large scale. Maybe a few would hire themselves as mercenaries, but the whole race is far more likely to keep fightin' than ally. Imperial Guard are far more fun to kill than a Necron.

Probably not come to think of it. They're possibly seek the Imperiums aid in exchange for technology, but they'd remain enigmatic and atonymous mostly.

They're growing in number according to the new codex.

See the first point.

On the contrary, Chaos Marines are winning a war of attrition. The Imperium simply doesn't have enough power to hold them at bay anymore.

Smitty wrote:Chaos would not cease to exist. The amount of Chaos Marines dying compared to the amount of new Chaos Marines is substantial. There are more Chaos Marines dying than there are joining. They are losing a war of attrition with the Imperium, and they will eventually be wiped out. Demons will always remain.

I would like a source for this. After all, CSM do recruit. They take humans born on Daemon Worlds and give them stolen geneseed. In addition they corrupt and recruit Loyalists. And, with the 13th Black Crusade, it appears the Imperium may be losing, but that's up for debate.

The Imperium should really try and form a proper alliance with the Eldar. The Emperor would rather us do that and have a significantly better chance of surviving, the Eldar aren't really in a position to refuse and it is possible, there's already the coven of Isha, they're really the only race we can ally with. The Tau would hardly give up their Ethereals, unless we can strike a deal with that exiled Tau commander, but he's got a tiny force so he wouldn't really help.

The Imperium might still be doomed though, the Mechanicus may seem to be close friends but really they've got their own plans.

iproxtaco wrote:

On the contrary, Chaos Marines are winning a war of attrition. The Imperium simply doesn't have enough power to hold them at bay anymore.

Source?

Last time i've checked, the IG alone has more regiments than CSM have bullets for their boltguns.
We all thank mr cruddace for these billions of regiments.... so CSM are a little outnumbered...

LoneLictor wrote:

I would like a source for this. After all, CSM do recruit. They take humans born on Daemon Worlds and give them stolen geneseed. In addition they corrupt and recruit Loyalists. And, with the 13th Black Crusade, it appears the Imperium may be losing, but that's up for debate.

CSM recrut ?
Lets see.
- The IW method: use demons to create a ton of unusable mutants and a few SM. Not that great to reinforce....
- Fab. clone mc bile: claim to be able to create them. Interesting method. No evidence given yet.
- red corsairs & co. "create" CSM from turncoats. May not work that well if the rumor of the split into renegades and legionaires is true, because the turncoats would add to the renegades then...
- steal geneseed. Now, you may need untainted humans so you have to shanghai them too. Turns your Legio pretty fast into "sons of gullyman" methinks. If it works and if the loyality of those is secured, I seem to remember it didn't work that well for IW and their mutants preferred the emperor over perturabo...
- use the few uncorrupted sources you have. May allow the less chaosy marines like NL to recrut some. Wouldn't work for those to deep into the service of the false gods.

So again, a source where humans born on a demon world are usable would be nice.
Plus, the 13th black failsade, isn't such a great success it seems. Look up CSM fluff in 5th ed. What? Can't find much? How so?

iproxtaco wrote:Please, do explain how Chaos just ceases to exist.

The C'tan have a plan for that, severing the Materium from the Immaterium forever.

YAYZ FOR C'TAN! ALL HAIL THE VOID DRAGON! (not you, the real one )

Iracundus wrote:The Tyranids are vast in numbers but the Imperium has taken to diverting them to hit other alien races, such as Orks.

They did that once. It required using exterminatus on several perfectly good worlds to divert them, denying the Imperium those worlds. It only diverted a small portion of Leviathan at that. And to compund that failure, it didn't work. The Tyranids aren'y dying, and neither are the Orks. The Tyranids are reaping huge amounts of biomass from a war with a race that reproduces like energiser rabbits, and the Orks have a new eternal fighting playground. Both sides are getting stronger.

Iracundus wrote:All races also have an interest in fighting the Tyranids because they all have their own plans for the galaxy. In the Tyranid Codex, it mentions how some Eldar Craftworlds have recently taken to using ancient weapons to burn worlds to cinders in order to deny them to the Tyranids.

As with what Kryptmann did, denying the Tyranids biomass be obliterating planets is only shooting yourself in the foot, as it denys you that world as well. This is a really dumb thing to do.

Actually IIRC Necrons are LIVING metal and thus biomass, so Tyranids can consume them, as again IIRC there are scattered reports of metal nids, only reason I remember it at all was I was thinking about doing a metal nid' army after reading it. As far as who wins in the end? Humanity in general would be my bet as there are more human worlds then people realize and not just Imperials either. Keep in mind humans at one time had the biggest empire of all, until thier own fall. The Empire had only reclaimed like 1/5th of the old empire before Horus turned on him....so there is a lot of individual human worlds out there, it's just they don't get codexes. ^-^

Also tyranids aren't invulnerable, and 'IF' the core of the hive mind was ever discoverd...and then severed....then the nids are no more. Or at very base minimum they return to being basic animals/bugs. (which I still wouldn't stand near mind you.) I.E. "It's Afraid!"

Necrons are one special oxidizing virus away from failing (hehe rusted tin men...it amazes me the Imperium hasn't started work on a rust virus to get at them. Machine Cult is probably not helping), or hell if someone rediscovers EMP tech...then boom. Also if you can cut the Crons off from their home tomb they can't self repair. (like blowing up thier central crystals of their tomb) They just fall apart in an empty stasis pod or fall apart to the ground.

On other fronts, if the Empire dies, boom no Imperium of Man. So again a single point weakness like the Nids.

Chaos has a lot of failsafes, and checks and balances, which oddly creates a sort of order, but they at the least don't have a 'if this happens....x happens' problem. And the Chaos gods are actually 'built into' the universe so if one dies...like say Nurgle...then no dieases that trim off the weak, or decomp so if people do die they just take up space, and the universe would rapidly strave itself out and die into a state of perfect preservation. So universal wide annhilation.

Eldar are dieing off slowly but are to put it lightly they have stoped the hemorraghing and 'could' make a comeback.

Dark Eldar have mastered cloneing and live in a place that not many other forces can get to. So supplies are thier biggest problem.

Orks are orks they isn't a way to permeantly remove them, and the harder you try the tougher they get, don't try at all, and they'll still kill ya.

Tau aren't a threat unless the Imperium falls in which case they get ahold of humans and warp capable ships...then they become a very serious threat.

KingmanHighborn wrote:Actually IIRC Necrons are LIVING metal and thus biomass, so Tyranids can consume them

No.

Just because it is called "Living" Metal doesn't mean it's organic. It's not.

The Tyranids deliberately avoid Tomb Worlds for a reason. They get nothing from the Necrons, and Necron Gauss Weaponry in turn is anathema to the Tyranids, they can't replenish their forces with the biomass of their dead because said biomass has been taken apart on the atomic level and suctioned into the Necron's weaponry.

Zoats!

KingmanHighborn wrote:Also tyranids aren't invulnerable, and 'IF' the core of the hive mind was ever discoverd...and then severed....then the nids are no more. Or at very base minimum they return to being basic animals/bugs. (which I still wouldn't stand near mind you.) I.E. "It's Afraid!"

That would be a great tactic if there was a core to the hive mind. There isn't.

It's a psychic collective consiousness made up of the psychic prescence of all Tyranids. Synapse creatures are just a control hub, but all contribute.

1hadhq wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

I would like a source for this. After all, CSM do recruit. They take humans born on Daemon Worlds and give them stolen geneseed. In addition they corrupt and recruit Loyalists. And, with the 13th Black Crusade, it appears the Imperium may be losing, but that's up for debate.

CSM recrut ?
Lets see.
- The IW method: use demons to create a ton of unusable mutants and a few SM. Not that great to reinforce....
- Fab. clone mc bile: claim to be able to create them. Interesting method. No evidence given yet.
- red corsairs & co. "create" CSM from turncoats. May not work that well if the rumor of the split into renegades and legionaires is true, because the turncoats would add to the renegades then...
- steal geneseed. Now, you may need untainted humans so you have to shanghai them too. Turns your Legio pretty fast into "sons of gullyman" methinks. If it works and if the loyality of those is secured, I seem to remember it didn't work that well for IW and their mutants preferred the emperor over perturabo...
- use the few uncorrupted sources you have. May allow the less chaosy marines like NL to recrut some. Wouldn't work for those to deep into the service of the false gods.

So again, a source where humans born on a demon world are usable would be nice.
Plus, the 13th black failsade, isn't such a great success it seems. Look up CSM fluff in 5th ed. What? Can't find much? How so?

You know what, reading your quote, you're right. CSM are doomed. And thinking about it, every none Imperial race is doomed (which the Orks and possibly Dark Eldar as the exception). Because GWs is now ruled by Imperial Fans such as Matt Ward. And I am forcing myself to admit and accept this.

From now on, I will not get into debates about how to interrupt canon anymore, because it will always end in "the Imperium wins." I will just have my own little personal canon which I hide behind.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

On the contrary, Chaos Marines are winning a war of attrition. The Imperium simply doesn't have enough power to hold them at bay anymore.

Source?

Last time i've checked, the IG alone has more regiments than CSM have bullets for their boltguns.
We all thank mr cruddace for these billions of regiments.... so CSM are a little outnumbered...

The 13th Black Crusade. Declared a minor win for Chaos and the forces of Disorder.

LoneLictor wrote:

I would like a source for this. After all, CSM do recruit. They take humans born on Daemon Worlds and give them stolen geneseed. In addition they corrupt and recruit Loyalists. And, with the 13th Black Crusade, it appears the Imperium may be losing, but that's up for debate.

CSM recrut ?
Lets see.
- The IW method: use demons to create a ton of unusable mutants and a few SM. Not that great to reinforce....
- Fab. clone mc bile: claim to be able to create them. Interesting method. No evidence given yet.
- red corsairs & co. "create" CSM from turncoats. May not work that well if the rumor of the split into renegades and legionaires is true, because the turncoats would add to the renegades then...
- steal geneseed. Now, you may need untainted humans so you have to shanghai them too. Turns your Legio pretty fast into "sons of gullyman" methinks. If it works and if the loyality of those is secured, I seem to remember it didn't work that well for IW and their mutants preferred the emperor over perturabo...
- use the few uncorrupted sources you have. May allow the less chaosy marines like NL to recrut some. Wouldn't work for those to deep into the service of the false gods.

So again, a source where humans born on a demon world are usable would be nice.
Plus, the 13th black failsade, isn't such a great success it seems. Look up CSM fluff in 5th ed. What? Can't find much? How so?

Red Corsairs do it by the conventional method. Taking their own geneseed or that of other chapters and implanting it the normal way.

No-one wins. Everybody dies. In the end, the galaxy is a collection of barren rocks and dying stars. Life is dead and the warp is silent.

Come on, it's getting more grimdark. How else can it end?

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

On the contrary, Chaos Marines are winning a war of attrition. The Imperium simply doesn't have enough power to hold them at bay anymore.

Source?

Last time i've checked, the IG alone has more regiments than CSM have bullets for their boltguns.
We all thank mr cruddace for these billions of regiments.... so CSM are a little outnumbered...

The 13th Black Crusade. Declared a minor win for Chaos and the forces of Disorder.

So a "minor win" means that they are winning a war of attrition and all is doomed? Failbbadon can't even get his ass out of Cadia, since no reinforcements can land thanks to the Imperial Navy. They are slowly grinded to dust there. Besides, after 13 crusades of epic failure I would not put my money on Chaos conquering Cadia.

LoneLictor wrote:

I would like a source for this. After all, CSM do recruit. They take humans born on Daemon Worlds and give them stolen geneseed. In addition they corrupt and recruit Loyalists. And, with the 13th Black Crusade, it appears the Imperium may be losing, but that's up for debate.

CSM recrut ?
Lets see.
- The IW method: use demons to create a ton of unusable mutants and a few SM. Not that great to reinforce....
- Fab. clone mc bile: claim to be able to create them. Interesting method. No evidence given yet.
- red corsairs & co. "create" CSM from turncoats. May not work that well if the rumor of the split into renegades and legionaires is true, because the turncoats would add to the renegades then...
- steal geneseed. Now, you may need untainted humans so you have to shanghai them too. Turns your Legio pretty fast into "sons of gullyman" methinks. If it works and if the loyality of those is secured, I seem to remember it didn't work that well for IW and their mutants preferred the emperor over perturabo...
- use the few uncorrupted sources you have. May allow the less chaosy marines like NL to recrut some. Wouldn't work for those to deep into the service of the false gods.

So again, a source where humans born on a demon world are usable would be nice.
Plus, the 13th black failsade, isn't such a great success it seems. Look up CSM fluff in 5th ed. What? Can't find much? How so?

Red Corsairs do it by the conventional method. Taking their own geneseed or that of other chapters and implanting it the normal way.

We still would like to get a source for that.

Blood Reaver. The station Hell's Iris is populated by a large number of pregnant women. It's how they repopulate their numbers, using their own geneseed stored in huge banks or taking from other chapters such as the Marines Errant.

If the Emperors own god children couldn't break the Imperium, what hope do their petty shadows have? Chaos had its chance, and were broken. The Imperium now is weaker than its ever been, but they still hold the line. What chance does Chaos really have against an Empire that stretches across the stars, fighting anything that looks different.

iproxtaco wrote:Blood Reaver. The station Hell's Iris is populated by a large number of pregnant women. It's how they repopulate their numbers, using their own geneseed stored in huge banks or taking from other chapters such as the Marines Errant.

Somehow I always thought that Marines were NOT capable of reproduction, since they are chemically castrated. Besides, geneseed is not sperm.

Not that we want to get onto this topic again, but no, though their children would be normal human beings (or normal warped monstrosities) not Space Marines, there's nothing per se to suggest that the Marines' err... generative organs, are non-functional, merely that they, in established fiction seem to lack the time or inclination to put them to use.

It's far from being canonical proof, but Deathwatch specifically allows Marines the option of being 'chem-gelded' but does not make that the standard.

Now, back to arguing about who will win in a static setting in which the timeline will never advance.

iproxtaco wrote:
The 13th Black Crusade. Declared a minor win for Chaos and the forces of Disorder.

The only "force " of disorder in the 40k verse is M.W.
Created a lot of fluff-chaos.

Still, I would like to suggest you look up what has been implemented from the campaign.
IIRC Tau benefited. Chaos?

Hello? Chaos?

Sounds like chaos got ignored by GW.
Exhibit A: IG codices released after the EoT "incident".
Exhibit B: 5th ed codices and the focus on mr huron B.
Would it be safe to assume certain gamedesigners were kept away from the Legions?
Its not like the design team has a say when the course of the background is set.
A u-turn wouldn't be impossible, but it looks like the power is intended to be split between the "new followers" and the "the long war is our master" faction. Diverted interests and halved power isn't helping to win IMO.

iproxtaco wrote:Blood Reaver. The station Hell's Iris is populated by a large number of pregnant women. It's how they repopulate their numbers, using their own geneseed stored in huge banks or taking from other chapters such as the Marines Errant.
Red Corsairs do it by the conventional method. Taking their own geneseed or that of other chapters and implanting it the normal way.

This isn't going to work forever if they delve into the corruption.
The ruinous powers aren't called ruinous because they preserve...
Some renegades may continue like they had before they turned for a while. But I think its also a point we should consider:
- the NL deem not all of them able to provide usable geneseed. Exactly in that series by ADB.

CSM are stuck in a war they can't win, like we all are...

Hopefully 6th edition will make clear that the 13th Black Crusade's marginal success has left an ongoing battle at Cadia and allowed Abaddon's forces to pass through the gate to strike at hitherto 'safe' Imperial systems. Given that the studio aren't (with good reason) going to extend the timeline, an emphasis in the fluff on Abaddon as an ongoing and widening threat will likely be the best we'll get.

It's a shame the results of the Eye of Terror campaign were not better reflected/more emphasised in subsequent codices - in fairness it is oft-mentioned (albeit in the background) in Black Library's stuff.