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IronfrontAlex wrote:Here's an update. Check it, yo.

2xlash sorc, MOS 250
5 chosen 1 melta 3 plasma, dozer rhino, 185
2x5 PM, Champ fist, 1 melta 1 plas in a dozer rhino 450
2x5 CSM champ fist 1 melta, dozer rhino 360
2x3 oblits 450
5 havocs, 4 missles 155

IMO, dedicated chosen are better - either all plasma or all melta - because they will have different targets. Plasma is best for MCs and decimating expensive long-range /troopers with excellent armor, especially devastator equivalents (fangs, havocs, etc.). Meltas are strictly anti-vehicle for the extra pen dice and upgraded damage. You can use them as safe plasmas but half the shots or half the range means lower effectiveness. So, either or, but not both.

I already said why I do not like fists in many cases. Here it is also because in small squads you are more likely to get killed before even getting to swing back.

In this list, the DPs are still left alone to do the assaulting. Plasma guns means you do not assault or lose the shots (yet another reason not to mix with melta). The lashes may seem like you can pull the enemy to feed it to your guns and DPs, but then your whole army is based on oblits. and what they do. That is not very resilient or flexible. Finally, if you face opponents with psychic countermeasures, the entire plan will fall apart.

Overall, it is a better list than the original one, but I still see issues with it.

What would you suggest for a CSM player hoping to survive in todays tourney then? My local area sees a good nid player, lots of deamons now, a few GK, lots of BA and Mech/swarm IG


here's an update!

2x lash sorc with personal icons 260
3x3 termicide units 315
2x5 PM with 2 plas in dozer rhinos 310
3x5 CSM, melta, rhino 360
2x3 oblits 450
5 havocs 4 missles 155

way i see it sorc can DS termicide or termis quickly, lots of KP but lots of target saturation, (you guys give good advice!)

IronfrontAlex wrote:
2x lash sorc with personal icons 260

First off. I dont care what anyone else says on the interweb... Last Princes are better then Lash Sorcerers everygame, hands down, no matter the opponent. I can list at least 5-10 reason why and if you really want to argue it i will.. but Just get two princes... You know you want to!

CSM are really reliant on the player over the army... You can be a pro player and fail with any codex but you cannot be a bad player and win with CSM like you can with Imp Guard and Grey Knights...

People say that 3 rhinos and 2 princes is too few for 1850? Yet I have won competative tournies with 4 rhinos and 2princes at 2k points... Its all about how you play...

A few examples from Internet players....
"All you rhinoes will die first two turns"
I KNOW ALL MY RHINOES will die the first two turns... So? They only need to move 12 inches to make their points up...

U MUST run two lash pricnes!
Really? I used to... But now I run a Lash prince and Warptime Tzeentch prince, so far that little chance has help me win ard boyz and a few tournies...

Oblits are your only Long range firepower
What? Oblits are bad long range firepower... I run 3x2man squads and RESERVE then everygame... I use my icons everywhere to drop them in melta range. Try a few games using them offencivly, Twin-Meltas and Twin Plasmaguns are their best weapons...

Simple interenet truths are not really always viable.. In ard boyz a few weeks ago I managed to win our local 14 player tourny using my oblits as offencive weapons. No one expects me to use those amazing twin linked Melta guns... But what happens if the squad inside the rhino assaults my poor oblits... So... they are now ready for counter charge, guns, deamon prince, and many other ways of dieing. They are most likely a scoring units vs ur non scoring oblits...

Its time to think outside the box... Chaos suck as long range firepower.... Period... So instead of overspending points on havocs and logn range oblits why not just abuse what chaos are good at, shoot range meta. You just gotta learn to play it.. It can be hard vs imperical guard and other gunlines but doable...

Here is my current 2000pt Tourny Winning army... It looks like a pile, internet players hate it, but it wins 90%+ of its games... RUNS OVER GREY KNIGHTS, BA, Space Wolves... Does better then average vs guard... Dark eldar are a pain,,, but thats dark eldar for ya, they are a pain for chaos anyway you look at it.

2000 Chaos

155 – Daemon Prince – MoS, Lash, Wings
200 – Daemon Prince – MoT, Wings, Warptime, Bolt of Change

215 – Chaos Marines x10 – 2x Melta Guns, IoCG
Rhino
215 – Chaos Marines x10 – 2x Melta Guns, IoCG
Rhino
215 – Chaos Marines x10 – 2x Melta Guns, IoCG
Rhino

269 – Berserkers x9 – Champion, Powerfist, Icon
Rhino

140 – Chaos Terminators
Chainfist, Combi-Melta
Combi-Melta
Reaper Autocannon
140 – Chaos Terminators
Chainfist, Combi-Melta
Combi-Melta
Reaper Autocannon

150 – Obliterators x2
150 – Obliterators x2
150 – Obliterators x2

1999

The onyl reason you ever want to run long range firesupport is Dark Eldar... And all of a sudden you got 2 reaper autocannons and 6 lascannons from 5 squads... Enough to tear apart those damn paper airplanes...

I keep both terms and 90% of the time all three oblits in reserve.. Every once and a while I will deploy oblits to use their plasma cannons right off the bat... Never for lascannons... The army is fail according to netlist spammers and the such, but its the feared army in my area... But I play compleetly different then 99% of CSM players... AKA my CSM support my oblits and my termiantors are not suicide suqds... Most games they are both left standing while the oblits are all dead..

Wow, Informative!

OneMeanDuck is my new hero. I have been thinking along similar lines for sometime now, but he has crystallized it. Certainly meltas are the way to go, and twin-linked meltaguns on the obliterators combined with icons seems a very solid no-brainer once you actually consider it. That list looks very interesting and flexible. My two concerns are:

Reserving so much is dangerous. Coming in piecemeal is such a downer. For some reason, my reserves always come in below average, while the termies seem to wait until the last moment. Last game, they came in on turn 5, and only because they had to! But perhaps others are luckier. On the other hand, if you have many squads, the rolling must revert to the average more reliably.

The CMS are the cheapest and it is nice to have large squads like that, but they are not fearless, which makes them vulnerable to sweeping advance. I would rather see plaguers instead, at the expense of fewer models per squad.

Duck, any thoughts?

I often play against the same guy each week, and Officer of the Fleet makes me pucker.....rolling 5'2 for 2nd turn Reserves sux.

Thankyou OneMeanDuck! A list that ain't PM spam or Havoc ML spam, it's getting predictable and boring and I'm actuallly considering continueing to look at CSM lists now

It's just a shame twin DP's are the only viable HQ, just too much cheese, are there no other 'decent' combos?

Brother-Captain Scotti wrote:Thankyou OneMeanDuck! A list that ain't PM spam or Havoc ML spam, it's getting predictable and boring and I'm actuallly considering continueing to look at CSM lists now

It's just a shame twin DP's are the only viable HQ, just too much cheese, are there no other 'decent' combos?

Nothing in the CSM codex is cheeze when you have the grey knight or imperial guard codex to compare it to. I like them for many reasons... first is that they take shots away from the rhinoes... The troops win the game.. When people see these big buggers flying strait at them they start shooting em... Why? Well cause they can do lots of damage... Another reason why I run a warptime prince... It does do a lot of damage. And poeople used to ignore him untill he would dismantle entire armies himself... Now he is more feared then my Lash Prince... go figure...
But to answere ur question point for point there is no better HQ in this game... Thats why we use those daemon princes... Simple enough.

Necrontyr40k wrote:OneMeanDuck is my new hero. I have been thinking along similar lines for sometime now, but he has crystallized it. Certainly meltas are the way to go, and twin-linked meltaguns on the obliterators combined with icons seems a very solid no-brainer once you actually consider it. That list looks very interesting and flexible. My two concerns are:

Reserving so much is dangerous. Coming in piecemeal is such a downer. For some reason, my reserves always come in below average, while the termies seem to wait until the last moment. Last game, they came in on turn 5, and only because they had to! But perhaps others are luckier. On the other hand, if you have many squads, the rolling must revert to the average more reliably.

The CMS are the cheapest and it is nice to have large squads like that, but they are not fearless, which makes them vulnerable to sweeping advance. I would rather see plaguers instead, at the expense of fewer models per squad.

Duck, any thoughts?

Ah the age old argument, Chaos Space Marines vs Plauge Marines... We will start out with the main reason I dont use PM... I HATE Nurgly.. I own 7000pts of CSM and not a single nurgly model... No Green for me... It has nothing to do with their in game effectiveness.. I just hate the look of them, the fact that all other CSM in my area play Deathguard, and the fluff of the ever loving god of desease...

Now for tactics: Plague marines are T5 FNP, fearless, and can take one hell of a beating. But if I used nurgle would I use plauge marines? Short anwere is no. Long answere is I dont play defencivly. I run all my armies on the attack. (Daemons and Eldar) While Plague marines are super durable they lack numbers, Numbers = more guns, more guns = more bullets, more bullets = more wounds ect ect. I like more guns vs durability... I find that the less return fire is just as good as durability. Also dumps into Close Combat.. More attacks.. Plus with the release of Grey Knights with their STR5 power weapons everywere I find plauge marines not really needed.. They will be ignored untill its time to assault them and they will get their asses kicked... Defence nades or no defence nades... At least the CSM will go down swinging and take a few more with them.
I also dont camp objectives. I seek and destroy then run to objectives turn 3-4... Thats just my play style and it works for me..
9LD rerollable is just fine for the shooting phase, they will rarly run, and in assault a few plauge marines is going to do nothing but hold them in combat. If I am in a losing close combat I would rather my squad run and die so I can return fire next turn... AKA oblits, another CSM squad, or just lash and zerker em.

The Area of deepstriking: Yes its risky, has backfired a few times. But long range you will lose... Imp guard will lascannon your oblits off the table... I figure a few turns they hide in reserve they are not getting shot up. And they can deepstrike where i need them. 4ish Icons is a large area.. And even if you have to scatter them in its reasonably reliable. I find myself often crashing one flank with my deepstriking while my rhinos rush the middle area. I force one half their army to trug through my marines to get to my terminators/oblits... Hit one side hard.. Next turn I can then use long range guns from that side and any more deepstrikers to shoot across the battlefield... Thats the main reason I run reapers in my termy squads. I can drop them, pop a tank. Use zerkers to eat chewy insides from tank... Then autocannon across the table as they rampage around.

I have also found other things pretty fun. A Land raider full of slaanesh termies with melts and claws is one of my personal favorite and I found room for them at ard boyz... More zerkers is great.. So many options, soo little time... Plus when you bring 7000pts of CSM/Daemons I can make any army I want to... As long as there is no green invovled.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mizzri wrote:I often play against the same guy each week, and Officer of the Fleet makes me pucker.....rolling 5'2 for 2nd turn Reserves sux.

One thing to remmeber with imperial guard: they suck as objective games... I have literally forced the imperial guard player in my area to stop using the Officer of the Fleet.. I will reserve my normal stuff and all of a sudden turn 5 comes along, I am most likly losing the shooting battle but winning the objective game, and then a few things that couldnt trudge throught the warp appear RIGHT NEXT TO HIS OBJECTIVE... I have won multiple games with less then 20% of my armie and him have over 50% just because Last turn deepstriking and then run/flamers tople his objectives... He litterally removed Officer of the Fleet from all his tourny armies cause of me... And he is actually doing better cause of it.