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check it, yo. This is my attempting to be competitive and the tournament is in 4 weeks.

HQ
DP: wings, MOS, lash
DP: wings, MON, Warptime

Troops
10 Plague Marines: 1 champ w/ fist, personal icon, 2x plasma guns, rhino with dozer blades
2x10 CSM: Icon of Chaos Glory, 1 champ w/fist, 2x melta, rhino with dozer blades

Heavy Support:
3x3 oblits.


My idea is the rhinos can spearhead (and probably die) while I try my best to hold objectives or killy kill. The lash dp can do his thing with the oblits, the oblits can DS if needed but are gunboat support/anti annoying things. The CSM are in for more models and I actually run a full Word Bearers force so the "lorgars sword" chosen are going to be plague marines. and the MON DP is just a beast at what he does, target saturation too.

Well, looks good. I'd keep it and have some practice with this list.

hmmm maybe people don't respond to good listss? thanks for the heads up tho!

Nah, it's pretty bad. 2 MC, 3 Av11 vehicles and a few Terminators at 1850 points? Not nearly good enough.

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Chaos Terminators (3), 3 x Combi-Melta, Powerfist - 115
Chaos Terminators (3), 3 x Combi-Melta, Powerfist - 115
Chaos Terminators (3), 3 x Combi-Melta, Powerfist - 115
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 130
Havocs (5), 4 x Missile Launcher - 155
Havocs (5), 4 x Missile Launcher - 155
Havocs (5), 4 x Missile Launcher - 155

Something like that. Lots of mobile melta, more lash and more long range shooting. You should be using lash to get disembarked squads into range of the combi-flamers.

Hey there. Im asking for a critique, not a whole different list here.

nonconstructive criticism is nonconstructive

If you're taking 1 lash DP, you should take 2, they work better in pairs. That will be you're basic strategy - rope 1 unit in at a time and shoot the #### out of them with your special weapons.

The fact that I am giving you a whole new list should speak for itself. I already told you why your list was bad, perhaps you should read through my comment again and try to understand why I said it? Then look over the list I gave you and try to understand why it's better?

Having two MC and 3 Av11 vehicles at 1850 points is bad, very bad; how long do you really expect them to last?

My 1850 SM list has 4 Lascannon, 8 Missile Launcher, 18 Autocannon and 12 Heavy Bolter shots per turn, spread out over 17 units, including 12 vehicles and 40 SM. Even with cover, your DP and your rhinos are going to be gone in two turns. From then on it's just a matter of cleaning up your footslogging CSM with my greater mobility and overwhelming your Oblits with masses of firepower.

That's the difference between a balanced list and a bad one that relies on a small number of weak units to function.

Now have a look through what I've given you. See the redundancy, and how every unit is inexpensive and without superfluous upgrades that add nothing to the list? See how the psychic powers can be safely hidden in rhinos rather than being on the table?

Apologies for not saying "Great list, good luck!" like the everyone else here, but that doesn't help anyone.

I will have to agree with unbeliever here. The list doesn't really have target saturation. The DPs are the first target, and if the Oblits deep strike, that just gives more time to mop up the other units. Or, they'd just shoot the rhinos and then force you to walk to them. It just seems that the list might be lacking a bit of something, which might need to be played around with.

Not wanting to start a real debate, but maybe take 1 squad of oblits out for a Vindicator. You'd have a little more armor on the field and the S10 shot can really work nicely with Lash. So just by having the vindi on the board, your other models will live longer.

Yeah I dont think having that many obliterators is a good idea. If your opponents has any deep strike/infiltrate unites theyll probably get chopped up pretty quick. Just have more balance and less reliance on the lash tactics.

On another note, while unbeliever has a balanced list, there is no way I would buy that many rhinos just for 5 man squads is a waste of money and a pain to carry. Tactically it makes sense. Realistically, not so much.

6 rhinos is not that many.
It's 2 more than in the OP, and about what most players have for a 2000 point list.

I second taking 2 lash princes, if one eats it early you'll wish you had 2.
If you drop the dozer blades, IoCG's, personal icon, and swap the PM's to melta guns; you could squeeze in a 3rd rhino.
Break the 10 man PM squad into 2 units of 5 to fill said 3rd rhino. Those PM's won't even need a champ, just use them to hold objectives with a plasma gun or 2.

Why I'd drop the Icons:
Most of the time it's better to start the oblits on the table, in cover. However, if you are going to DS them, you won't be using the icons anyways unlss you want your oblits within 6" of your own guys, and in the open to avoid DS badness. Needless to say, in the open is not where you want your oblits to be, and with all the melta you have, it's looking like you want to be close to your opponent. That's also not where you want your oblits to be.

Lol, the Obliterators are the only long range shooting he's got! Don't tell him to get rid of them so he auto-loses against Dark Eldar, IG, Space Wolves and Grey Knights.

The lists I post are always the 'ideal' way to run them. If you have model limitations then it's up to you how you fill in the gaps, but I won't give you a deliberately bad list just because you might not have the models needed for it yet.

There are probably stronger CSM list out there to be honest (the Terminators especially seem a bit forced), but this one feels nice. It's also incredibly simple and relatively straightforward to run.

Oblits are the only long range we have nowadays, at least ones who can put it down without being rediculously overpriced (which oblits ehhh, sorta are anyways)

that being said yes I do have model restricions, i only have about 4 autocannons, 4 missles, 2 las, 5 plas, 4 melta, 2 flamer marines.

Idk IoCG always seemed like an ok buy for me, call me weird but CSM runnign away bugs me and i thought a re roll would be more efficient than an auto wound or ust dying to DE in cc.

that beign said MSU do turn me on, but im still skeptical about lash all together.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbeliever87 wrote:The lists I post are always the 'ideal' way to run them. If you have model limitations then it's up to you how you fill in the gaps, but I won't give you a deliberately bad list just because you might not have the models needed for it yet

Just wasn't expecting the tough love, I get it though, Playing deamons for a long while i've sort of lost my funk with CSM (running all mono tzeench army rocks but people learn and it becomes a dog and pony show)

That being said, I see the benefits of your example and will try to apply them below, but upon further reading i realize there are no powerfirsts in that army, what becomes of units in combat with things much killier than themselves? or if they wanted to pop a tank and missed with melta


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2x lash sorc
5 chosen with 5 plasmaguns
2x6 PM with dual melta in rhinos w/dozer
2x5 CSM: melta, rhino w/dozer
5 havocs with 4 missles
2x3 oblits.... and im under points!

What to add/remove at 1746/1850?

2x lash sorc
5 chosen with 5 plasmaguns
2x6 PM with dual melta in rhinos w/dozer
2x5 CSM: melta, rhino w/dozer
5 havocs with 4 missles
2x3 oblits.... and im under points!

I'd mount the Chosen into a Rhino and add another unit of Chosen if you have the points.

I would add the Chosen into a Rhino and reduce the plasmas down to two in the squad, after all only two can fire out the hatch.

I would drop a Plague Marine and dozer blade from units. Plague Marines only need 5 dudes to take double special weapons.

I've run Obliterators and Havocs in the past. Oblits have the problem of getting instagibbed and they are very flexible but often that got be a issue. Havocs can asborb more damage but costly for what they do. Question is what do you want over flexible unit or expensive unit with more fire power?

Rest is cool.

@mercer do you think a mix works? like one havok and 2 oblit units?

I'm only throwing down chosen because idk anythign else relevant, was gonna add a las/plas spiky marine unit but eh.

Yeah a mix could work. I would just prefer to take Havocs because more fire power at range.

The list looks ok but im not overky fond of 3 squads of obliterators i would get rid of 2 squads and replace it with some bikes and raptors to make sure that your main assault ( which i assume comes from the 2csm groups and plague marine squad is )but the idea of using rhinos to spearhead is awesome. :-)

Here's an update. Check it, yo.

2xlash sorc, MOS 250
5 chosen 1 melta 3 plasma, dozer rhino, 185
2x5 PM, Champ fist, 1 melta 1 plas in a dozer rhino 450
2x5 CSM champ fist 1 melta, dozer rhino 360
2x3 oblits 450
5 havocs, 4 missles 155

Chosen should have all the same special weapons so can do maximum damage to a target. Don't also need the dozer blade as well, in fact don't need it on all Rhinos.

Don't need the Champions either. The Champions are costing 63 points in total and no Marine with a power fist is worth that. Add in that you will be rarely assaulting and should be sticking inside the Rhino.

Rest is ok.

I get what you mean, really I do! CSM are way too overpriced, hell look at our 4 missle 5 man havocs for 155 next to 6 longfangs with 5 ml for 140 pts... ahaha


that being said, I get why you say no champs and dozer, I can drop dozer and be alright, but those 1's piss me off!

the champs tho... what would i do if anythign got into combat with a walker, MC, etc?

Now i like that list alot better i mean you got those havocs in terrain jus blowin gak up n yh i agree chosen shud have all the same special weapons n let ur troops take the plasma etc there expendible lol

I was also thinking of going 3 deep with the pm units, dropping the csm and chosen to add a full lasplas spiky marine unit with rhino

IronfrontAlex wrote:I get what you mean, really I do! CSM are way too overpriced, hell look at our 4 missle 5 man havocs for 155 next to 6 longfangs with 5 ml for 140 pts... ahaha


that being said, I get why you say no champs and dozer, I can drop dozer and be alright, but those 1's piss me off!

the champs tho... what would i do if anythign got into combat with a walker, MC, etc?

Ask yourself this question; why you letting a walker into close combat when you know it can kill your dudes with dccw or tie your units up. You don't want that, the opponent does though. So you going to take the chances with the 2 attacks power fist or you going to shoot it with your guns? A immobilised result would happliy stop a walker.

I suppose getting rid of a group that is there to get shot is ok. And maybe gettin rid of the chosen is cool but i wouldnt get rid of them they are the guys that are there at the front id rather have a melta up behind enemy lines then las spam far away id get rid of a squad of obliterators for havoc squad full of lascannons

YOU GOT PLENTY C&C!!!...


Im with unbeliever on this one.

darkhorse19 wrote:I suppose getting rid of a group that is there to get shot is ok. And maybe gettin rid of the chosen is cool but i wouldnt get rid of them they are the guys that are there at the front id rather have a melta up behind enemy lines then las spam far away id get rid of a squad of obliterators for havoc squad full of lascannons

awahhhh? like 25 pts a piece!

Hugs-for-the-Hug-God wrote: YOU GOT PLENTY C&C!!!...


Im with unbeliever on this one.

I KNOW RIGHT?! NUTSSSSSS


nobody ever responds to a bland codex on this forum section, im stoked.

Sorry to be blunt but I don't understand how people can believe unbeliever's list is strong. One third of the missions are annihiliation. I counted 20 KP. So, against most armies you actually have to table them in annihilation missions.

What is the point of that many rhinos? Why not get 3x 10 CSM 2x melta in a dozer rhino? That will save 100 pts and make the squads more resilient. At Ld9 and without champ and icon CG, CSMs are vulnerable to leadership/morale problems. So, particularly vulnerable to sweeping advance, especially without power weapons in the squads.

Also, how exactly will the termicide squads come in? DSing without icons is dangerous business. Also, what if they are late? Without them, the princes are the only real threat.

Those havocs are not difficult to wipe out or shot down. Against certain armies, they will be particularly weak.

I appreciate the ideas of keeping the units cheap, inbuilding redundancy, and avoiding unnecessary upgrades, but this list does not scare me at all. I'll use barrage weapons and/or DSers to wipe out the havocs while using anti-tank to kill the DPs. I can ignore the bulk of the army because 6 meltaguns will take some time to reach me and the termies can be late or kill themselves by scatter. It is a trivial list to fight against. And in annihilation, it will be gravy.

Necrontyr40k wrote:Sorry to be blunt but I don't understand how people can believe unbeliever's list is strong. One third of the missions are annihiliation. I counted 20 KP. So, against most armies you actually have to table them in annihilation missions.

What is the point of that many rhinos? Why not get 3x 10 CSM 2x melta in a dozer rhino? That will save 100 pts and make the squads more resilient. At Ld9 and without champ and icon CG, CSMs are vulnerable to leadership/morale problems. So, particularly vulnerable to sweeping advance, especially without power weapons in the squads.

Also, how exactly will the termicide squads come in? DSing without icons is dangerous business. Also, what if they are late? Without them, the princes are the only real threat.

Those havocs are not difficult to wipe out or shot down. Against certain armies, they will be particularly weak.

I appreciate the ideas of keeping the units cheap, inbuilding redundancy, and avoiding unnecessary upgrades, but this list does not scare me at all. I'll use barrage weapons and/or DSers to wipe out the havocs while using anti-tank to kill the DPs. I can ignore the bulk of the army because 6 meltaguns will take some time to reach me and the termies can be late or kill themselves by scatter. It is a trivial list to fight against. And in annihilation, it will be gravy.

and your thoughts of the OP's ?

IronfrontAlex wrote:check it, yo. This is my attempting to be competitive and the tournament is in 4 weeks.
HQ
DP: wings, MOS, lash
DP: wings, MON, Warptime

Troops
10 Plague Marines: 1 champ w/ fist, personal icon, 2x plasma guns, rhino with dozer blades
2x10 CSM: Icon of Chaos Glory, 1 champ w/fist, 2x melta, rhino with dozer blades

Heavy Support:
3x3 oblits.

I like the dozer blades - a wonderful upgrade for just 5 pts!

10 PM is too much and becomes expensive. Realistically, their job is to get stuck in cover near a home objective. Being fearless, they will not run when under 25%, and will not be pinned. So, they just need to sit there and go to ground if hit by something nasty. So, a large squad of them is too expensive for guarding an objective. I would take maybe 7, with 2x meltas. Meltas are cheaper and do not explode in your hands. Granted, PM have FNP which will help with the silly gets-hot, but still, I hate paying 15 points a piece for a weapon that statistically will blow up in my hands by the end of the game.

Finally, I would not give them a champ with a PF, because they will not use it for most of the game. A champ with PF is very expensive, so to get the points back, you have to be doing something with it all game. PMs will be just as effective at camping on my home objective without the champ with the PF. If they do get assaulted by something, they will get to shoot for one turn usually and then they have 3+ and T5 and FNP and fearless to hold off for a bit until other things come to help.

I like the CSM squads. My only concern is the PF on the champ. I would save the points and give him a PW instead. The meltas are enough to pop vehicles and CSMs come with krak grenades as standard equipment, so I am not too worried about punching vehicles without PF.

3x3 obliterators is excessive. I have to agree with unbeliever and other posters here. We are looking at just 9 T4 models costing 675 pt. 2W is offset by instant death. They can be shut down pretty quickly by artillery and DSers. Also, the lack of any heavy armor in the list means all the lances and lascannons will be turned on them, so instant death. They will pop quickly, losing all ranged firepower for the army.

Yet another weakness to the list is that the DPs have no support in CC. Yes, they are MCs and will rip heads, but I'd like to see smaller monsters following in their footsteps, e.g. zerkers. As is, they are naked and will be isolated quickly. Finally, being alone, they will eat all the meltas and plasmas and missile launchers of the enemy, while the artillery and lances decimate the obliterators.

Overall an unbalanced list that will have trouble against certain armies.

One thing to think about is using the obliterators as DSing terminators in support of the DPs. But, their shootiness asks for them to be on the map since turn 1, while DSing means they can be late. Still, if you rush the CSMs forward to support the DPs and use the CSM icons to DS the obliterators, it may be effective. However, if that is the way you will be playing the army, then zerkers may make more sense than CSMs because the oblits will cover the shooting, so the CSM meltas are not needed, but more punch in CC would be good. Also, zerkers are fearless (no sweeping advance if you roll poorly) and are troops ( so they will take objectives). They are more expensive, but cutting the points as described above will pay for the replacement.

I posted a revised list as well.