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They were so much better before they became mainstream.

I like BoW but they never admit when they are wrong and there reporting standards are super low. I wish them well and I hope the channel is a success.

The massive facepalm for me was when the Chibihawk madness swept across the internet (this was before the model was unveiled) and they did a serious hard look at the old Land Raider box art of 10+ years ago, declaring that yes, it could be a Chibihawk flying there in the background!!!!

I like their painting vids, I just don't like paying for something that was free before.

I suppose I'd like to hop in here and say we (and I especially) welcome constructive criticism as we're always looking for areas of improvement (some do take time to improve though) and again I'll provide my email addres here for anyone who would like to provide it, especially for the one or two of you that believe you have untapped talent for presenting, as I'm sure you are aware I will definitely want to snap you guys up before CNN or the BBC spot you guys! ;o)

On a serious note you can get me on warren (at) beastsofwar (dot) com - however you will probably not be surprised that few ever actually use the email and prefer to remain faceless, the few who have though have become valuable friends and advisors who I take great pride in working with.

The expansion to TV is a commitment we have made to continue pushing wargaming into the mainstream (long ways to go though!)

We care deeply about the hobby, and sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we deliberately stir things up, always we have fun and try to show our passion for the greatest hobby in the world.

It's easy to criticise what we have undertaken (trying to build knowledge and presentation of a multitude of game systems) especially when we are completely in the open and you can stay anonymous - but that comes with what we have chosen to do )

But to be fair, we have been at this for two years and hope on the whole we have helped inspire gamers and show them the massive amounts of F*****ing cool stuff our industry is creating D

@brookm I understand that backstage is not your thing but it's nessisary to fund what we do - and bar gamescape every show type we produced before is still free, we created only new formats for backstage.

Warren - BoW Team

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:I suppose I'd like to hop in here and say we (and I especially) welcome constructive criticism as we're always looking for areas of improvement (some do take time to improve though) and again I'll provide my email addres here for anyone who would like to provide it, especially for the one or two of you that believe you have untapped talent for presenting, as I'm sure you are aware I will definitely want to snap you guys up before CNN or the BBC spot you guys! ;o)

Don't get me wrong. I don't think I'm CNN material (at least, not without working on it for quite a while first), but I've done several things that have really helped my ability to present. I don't know what you're already doing, but have you considered public speaking classes, or Toastmasters, or anything like that? While most of that stuff is about speaking in front of live crowds, a lot of the skills learned should transition well.

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:@brookm I understand that backstage is not your thing but it's nessisary to fund what we do - and bar gamescape every show type we produced before is still free, we created only new formats for backstage.

Warren - BoW Team

3 Colors up used to be free... I can't learn how to paint white on space marine cloaks without paying 6.25 a month

We are living a moment in the wargaming hobby, right now, when internet stores are KILLING local gaming stores, when books and rules and information are available illegally for free, when the videogame industry is growing bigger than ever, becoming the unique gaming hobby platform...

... and you are criticizing the only TV program about OUR hobby ever?! the only youtube proffesional channel about wargaming ever?!

Beasts of War are making noise, people, that is what we need. Miniature Wargaming is fething dying every week. Next generation of kids would only play videogames, and these people is promoting wargaming. This is necessary. Make wargaming look cool on TV, making it interesting for all the casual viewers.

LGS are dying. If you don´t see this you are probably blind. They need TV programs and promotion.

Absolutely. Public awareness of the existence of 'the hobby' (whatever that means) is essential. It is imperative that anyone who steps up to make this happen is the absolute best they can possibly be. Anything less will result in failure.

That's the value of criticism.

@bobbafett I too have mixed feelings about the current state of affairs in the industry.

We see this as a crossroads, we have a young and burgeoning industry of developers now who are doing such cool stuff that we could be seeing the golden age of wargaming starting now. We have the inter web connecting anyone who enjoys the hobby and is extending our reach into every community in the world - even third world communities can learn the concepts of tabletop gaming now.

Yet we have to decide what the bricks and mortar stores are worth to us - do we let them just die off and hope a thriving club scene fills in the gap, or do we need to support and protect them and see tham as cornerstones to our hobby.

We are opting for the latter and having piloting 'initiatives' with the hobby stores and distributers to see if we can do our bit to help what I see as a potentially hugely valuable part of the whole chain.

This hobby probably more than most has a lot of naysayers and professional complainers - and let's not shy from the fact that our roots are with geeks and nerds who do infact find human interactions a bit of a strain - but hey video gaming was exactly the same back in '96.

It's quite ironic that one of the biggest threats to the growth of our hobby is the perception of the community itself, moaners who grind down the folks who get up and try are not helping things, and I'm not trying to be smart or rude when I say I'm looking forward to the day when you become the very silent minority when the majority is made up of folks from all walks of life who just love the cool shiney things, love the risks and innovations others embark on and love to enjoy their hobby.

Pipe dream perhaps - but certainly helps motivate me every day!

@alfndrate What your referring to is a new show type called '3 Colours Up Tips' is a short 10 minute format taking one small elements of painting - designed just for backstage.

3 Colours Up is a 3 hour full tutorial on a minature and is still free, infact a 5 part series on an infinity minature has just finished - did you watch it?

For those who have watched one show or haven't watched in months perhaps you fancy coming over to see exactly what we're doing and then emailing me with your ideas and suggestions and I will do my very best to try and make them happen.

Warren



Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:Absolutely. Public awareness of the existence of 'the hobby' (whatever that means) is essential. It is imperative that anyone who steps up to make this happen is the absolute best they can possibly be. Anything less will result in failure.

That's the value of criticism.

True to a point.

Constructive criticism has immense value.

And in a hobby this niche you have to start somewhere, people and projects 'become' the best they can be they rarely start out as the best they can be.

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:@alfndrate What your referring to is a new show type called '3 Colours Up Tips' is a short 10 minute format taking one small elements of painting - designed just for backstage.

3 Colours Up is a 3 hour full tutorial on a minature and is still free, infact a 5 part series on an infinity minature has just finished - did you watch it?

No, as I have not been able to visit the site more than a cursory glance in the past week... I saw it was up... I might peruse it.


I do hope that my words in this thread don't come across as negative as you guys at BoW got me into 40k, I just haven't been the biggest fan of the changes to backstage, and work and life have prevented me from watching videos I used to catch daily.

I did have a question for you though: Is the 7 Days of Sanguinius back up on the site? I was kinda hoping to catch the 3 colors up you did for that week.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

lukewild1982 wrote:ph34r can not wait to see your online show concerning wargames, sure it will be insightful, funny and and an all together polished piece of media entertainment . . . oh wait your not doing one . . . .oh well i guess I will go and watch the only people who had the bollocks to actually give it a go.

This is the oldest fething trick in the book when it comes to shooting down criticism, and I for one am fething tired of it. So shut the hell up with your pathetic mewling if this is the best you can manage.

Oooh, someone's got sand in their girly parts.



Beasts of War is OK. I wouldn't pay for their backstage pass and I don't really watch their tactica videos. I generally just watch Turn 8 and their unboxing videos. I don't think I'd go out of my way to watch their TV show, but if I was channel surfing and there wasn't much else on, I might. I would expect it to be slightly higher in production values and I would definitely expect a little more preparation from the guys reporting. Either way, it won't be on TV in the States, I'm sure.


Overall, though, I appreciate what they're trying to do and I wish them the best.

daedalus wrote:Absolutely. Public awareness of the existence of 'the hobby' (whatever that means) is essential. It is imperative that anyone who steps up to make this happen is the absolute best they can possibly be. Anything less will result in failure.

That's the value of criticism.

I think we need to consider the product though. DO people really want to have a super polished "day-time T.V." presentation, or do we want something more.....real.

Personally, I like the stuttering, the mis-pronounciation, the beer drinking, the swearing.....and to a point, even the inaccuracy......because it makes the show feel real. The thing about Turn 8, which in my opinion, makes it superior to On the Table, is the fact that the guys are sitting around chewing the fat. On the Table looks rehearsed and because of that comes across as a little "life-less".

If / when BoW go mainstream T.V. I would want to see more Turn 8 stlye then News at Ten.

"I did have a question for you though: Is the 7 Days of Sanguinius back up on the site? I was kinda hoping to catch the 3 colors up you did for that week."

Backstage was as a direct result of the YouTube fiasco, and is hugely helpful in keeping BoW moving and growing, and the reality is a big number of the subscribers do it to support us and ensure that those who don't want to support us still get free content.

All the over 1000 videos are gradually making their way back up, we have a reruns section where you can see what's been added again. I'll mention to the team though that the blood angels stuff should get pushed up the list a bit if it's not already.

Despite what has been said, the range and diversity of models and games that BoW brings to my attention has really opened my eyes to the wide horizons in the hobby.

BoW will in all likelihood carry that diversity over into TV broadcasting and the hobby will benefit from that imho

Delephont wrote:Personally, I like the stuttering, the mis-pronounciation, the beer drinking, the swearing.....and to a point, even the inaccuracy......

And the remnants of Cheetos on the fingers

Cheetos, should be the least favorite snack of wargamers.
but sadly seem quite popular!

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:

daedalus wrote:Absolutely. Public awareness of the existence of 'the hobby' (whatever that means) is essential. It is imperative that anyone who steps up to make this happen is the absolute best they can possibly be. Anything less will result in failure.

That's the value of criticism.

True to a point.

Constructive criticism has immense value.

And in a hobby this niche you have to start somewhere, people and projects 'become' the best they can be they rarely start out as the best they can be.

Sure. I'm not saying, "hang it up and go home," I'm just saying that mainstream television is a vastly different thing than releasing videos online. I just watched a handful of your videos and they are better than I remember.

My biggest concern is that the show becoming mainstream, instead of drawing positive attention and interest, only results in alienating people who might happen to flip to it. I think back to the glory days of TechTV, and how they managed to be interesting, but still kept things "cool". Just food for thought.

It's like I said, you guys are pioneers in an untouched field. It's a step in the right direction. Just please, please, please vet the tactics advice before broadcasting it. We don't need 12 year olds misusing templates because it was on the show.

OK here's some constructive criticism

I do like the idea behind the backstage pass, but I feel it should be either really cheap (like half the price it is now, if not even less) or provide more worthwhile content and goodies. Warpath alpha rules weren't worth it to sign up, but i did anyway. The papercraft terrain is a nice idea, but still not quite there yet. I'd rather see something more like, buying the pass gives you totally, 100% ad-less videos. No commercials added on whatsoever.

There shouldn't be any videos that are ONLY for the backstage pass. Especially when there's a bazillion other free model painting videos on YouTube. I'd suggest if you want that kinda thing, maybe you have em in there for the first couple days, then they become public.

I know this would require more on the techie side, but have you considered doing a subscription based thing for iPads and tablets? Get yourself listed in the Apple store and Android store and have people watching your videos on their tablets and iphones, downloading them like a weekly e-newspaper. Even if you did it like a "everything that happened last week" kind of thing, you'll get people who never, ever go to beastsofwar.com, but get their subscription delivered to them every week instead. I've been messing with this kinda thing at work lately.. it could be as simple as building interactive PDFs and embeding videos in em. I really think that's where the web is heading, slowly but surely...

BobbaFett wrote:We are living a moment in the wargaming hobby, right now, when internet stores are KILLING local gaming stores, when books and rules and information are available illegally for free, when the videogame industry is growing bigger than ever, becoming the unique gaming hobby platform...

... and you are criticizing the only TV program about OUR hobby ever?! the only youtube proffesional channel about wargaming ever?!

Beasts of War are making noise, people, that is what we need. Miniature Wargaming is fething dying every week. Next generation of kids would only play videogames, and these people is promoting wargaming. This is necessary. Make wargaming look cool on TV, making it interesting for all the casual viewers.

LGS are dying. If you don´t see this you are probably blind. They need TV programs and promotion.

Maybe in England... it seems like here in the states we have new folks expressing interest and diving into the hobby every week. My group has players from the very early teens/pre teens all the way up to the grognard age range. BTW< last I checked the video game industry worldwide is actually struggling, so its not like the issue is unique to tabletop gaming (if there even is an issue).

As for criticizing BoW, the fact that they are the 'only' program is NOT a reason to put them above criticism. Having watched a few segments of BoW, I can't really see it becoming a tv program that will seriously build hobby awareness and bring in new players, etc. The only real appeal of the show is to existing gamers (and if this thread is any indication, only a very small subset of those gamers), otherwise its about as exciting as watching paintball on television, an experiment for THAT hobby/community which never really took off or did anything to promote it.

BobbaFett wrote:We are living a moment in the wargaming hobby, right now, when internet stores are KILLING local gaming stores, when books and rules and information are available illegally for free, when the videogame industry is growing bigger than ever, becoming the unique gaming hobby platform...

... and you are criticizing the only TV program about OUR hobby ever?! the only youtube proffesional channel about wargaming ever?!

Beasts of War are making noise, people, that is what we need. Miniature Wargaming is fething dying every week. Next generation of kids would only play videogames, and these people is promoting wargaming. This is necessary. Make wargaming look cool on TV, making it interesting for all the casual viewers.

LGS are dying. If you don´t see this you are probably blind. They need TV programs and promotion.

Yeah, and these guys are Miniature Wargaming's representatives to the entire TV watching world. If they can't get their act together enough to report accurately (their *shudder* tactica), professionally (make a script, do multiple takes), and non-awkwardly, in the eyes of a wargamer, how do you think a "mainstream" "normal" not-wargamer is going to view them? They will judge the entirety of the wargaming community on what they see.

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:@bobbafett I too have mixed feelings about the current state of affairs in the industry.

We see this as a crossroads, we have a young and burgeoning industry of developers now who are doing such cool stuff that we could be seeing the golden age of wargaming starting now. We have the inter web connecting anyone who enjoys the hobby and is extending our reach into every community in the world - even third world communities can learn the concepts of tabletop gaming now.

Yet we have to decide what the bricks and mortar stores are worth to us - do we let them just die off and hope a thriving club scene fills in the gap, or do we need to support and protect them and see tham as cornerstones to our hobby.

We are opting for the latter and having piloting 'initiatives' with the hobby stores and distributers to see if we can do our bit to help what I see as a potentially hugely valuable part of the whole chain.

This hobby probably more than most has a lot of naysayers and professional complainers - and let's not shy from the fact that our roots are with geeks and nerds who do infact find human interactions a bit of a strain - but hey video gaming was exactly the same back in '96.

It's quite ironic that one of the biggest threats to the growth of our hobby is the perception of the community itself, moaners who grind down the folks who get up and try are not helping things, and I'm not trying to be smart or rude when I say I'm looking forward to the day when you become the very silent minority when the majority is made up of folks from all walks of life who just love the cool shiney things, love the risks and innovations others embark on and love to enjoy their hobby.

Pipe dream perhaps - but certainly helps motivate me every day!

@alfndrate What your referring to is a new show type called '3 Colours Up Tips' is a short 10 minute format taking one small elements of painting - designed just for backstage.

3 Colours Up is a 3 hour full tutorial on a minature and is still free, infact a 5 part series on an infinity minature has just finished - did you watch it?

For those who have watched one show or haven't watched in months perhaps you fancy coming over to see exactly what we're doing and then emailing me with your ideas and suggestions and I will do my very best to try and make them happen.

Warren



Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:Absolutely. Public awareness of the existence of 'the hobby' (whatever that means) is essential. It is imperative that anyone who steps up to make this happen is the absolute best they can possibly be. Anything less will result in failure.

That's the value of criticism.

True to a point.

Constructive criticism has immense value.

And in a hobby this niche you have to start somewhere, people and projects 'become' the best they can be they rarely start out as the best they can be.

So do you want a recommendation?

Get one of these games you talk about on the show and do something about how to get into it.

An example would be to take a camera down to your local shop, go in, look over the shelves and pick one on one month, another on the next month and so on.

After you do the bit on the game, go back to your game area, pop open the box and get into the discussion parts.- "This is a ------- It does ----------. It is good for ----------- It is ok, sucks, greatestest unit ever." Then you go down and discuss the game in depth. "Heres the rules, this is what they do, this is a unit, this is what they do. Here is some scenery that we found was cool to use for it... this is XYZ wargame.

Do that for a few different games, and put it out there about the units, cost, etc. Then we can get into the panting and unit building shows.
After a few of these shows, you could go and do a war show where you play the game, discuss different things, or even get the game makers to come on and discuss the games while you get a couple of players together to give some feedback.

"I liked this about unit XYZ, I like these rules because."

There are more games out there aside from the "Big Three" that need this sort of attention more then GW's B.S. Lickies and Chewies., Or PP's overpricing shinagle.

The current show is ok. People can pee and moan about anything on the internets, but for what it's worth, there are not a lot of organized serious discussionary shows on the net that are in the same vien as BoW do. I have a few things on there that are not my thing, some of the wasted hoo um.. er... time, some of up to a few minutes while you look at each other and try to figure out whos suppposed to talk, but other then that, that kind of stuff is petty. All in all, there are no serious shows out there trying to do what you are doing.

I wouldn't mind you showering some of the industry with some negative attention, and putting the brick to a few of those so called" Game Designers" fasces that think thier all that, and cut a little of that smug out of thier butt, either.

I'd like to see you call them out on thier pricing, ask them about how they think they can overcharge for a hunk of plastic, and expect to stay relevent.
other then that though, the Thursday show is not all that bad. I like the open the box shows, and some of the discussions are very entertaining.

ph34r wrote:Yeah, and these guys are Miniature Wargaming's representatives to the entire TV watching world. If they can't get their act together enough to report accurately (their *shudder* tactica), professionally (make a script, do multiple takes), and non-awkwardly, in the eyes of a wargamer, how do you think a "mainstream" "normal" not-wargamer is going to view them? They will judge the entirety of the wargaming community on what they see.

Maybe sexy gamer chicks in tight clothes made from rulebooks, whippy sticks, and dice?

I agree. Without hot chicks I could never watch something about wargamming.

daedalus wrote:

ph34r wrote:Yeah, and these guys are Miniature Wargaming's representatives to the entire TV watching world. If they can't get their act together enough to report accurately (their *shudder* tactica), professionally (make a script, do multiple takes), and non-awkwardly, in the eyes of a wargamer, how do you think a "mainstream" "normal" not-wargamer is going to view them? They will judge the entirety of the wargaming community on what they see.

Maybe sexy gamer chicks in tight clothes made from rulebooks, whippy sticks, and dice?

Thats a good begining.

How about just whippy sticks and dice. Don't want to get my rule book dirty.

@Grot 6

Thanks for that! It's quite like a concept we're working on, and I think it could work on TV quite well

We understand only to well the difference and challenges of each medium - so all tv concepts are being looked at just for that format.

Some nice touches in there though and I'll get the rest of the team to read over it on monday )

Thanks Again

Warren

I love the unboxing calm videos and the events coverage like gencon and salute and also turn8, on the table... but I dislike backstage.

I dislike backstage because my budget for NET is filled with Photobucket Pro accounts, a couple sites/ host/ maintenance and other services that really make things a lot different and easier for me... As much as I understand the need for backstage and I'm totally OK with BOW folks trying to make some money to improve BOW I just cannot justify that kind of service in my budget.

Also I don't want news delivered in a totally cold professional way, that really sucks big time!!! I enjoy a lot more the relaxed way things are delivered today at BOW.

Suggestions? Well some kind of rolled up vids that I just need to click once on say Unboxing vids and all of them are linked and uploaded automatically after the previous one ended... Also I prefer the calm aproach of some of the bow members instead of the PUMPED UP ON RED BULL style For example on turn 8 all guys are in and they usually are debating on one level of decibels but then one goes all crazy and crashes my windows at long hours at night with some screams at unimaginable decibel levels Sounds funny but annoying to keep changing volume when your hands are full of greenstuff.

I also think BOW should really start to tap in 15mm universes more deeply, there are tons of things going on there and they seem a bit forgotten.

So in short, keep it going and if possible in a calm way, after a day work and starting a night of sculpting the last thing I need is someone screaming about minis

BEASTSOFWAR wrote:@Grot 6

Thanks for that! It's quite like a concept we're working on, and I think it could work on TV quite well

We understand only to well the difference and challenges of each medium - so all tv concepts are being looked at just for that format.

Some nice touches in there though and I'll get the rest of the team to read over it on monday )

Thanks Again

Warren

Hey Warren, you've got our endorsement to use our products for the full extent of what Grot 6 said. Just yell at Andy to get around to assembling the pile of Models we've sent over.