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Not really. It raises the how can not everyone in Ravenwing know? These guys aren't exactly rookies. And I don't think you can be in Ravenwing and Deathwing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not really. It raises the how can not everyone in Ravenwing know? These guys aren't exactly rookies. And I don't think you can be in Ravenwing and Deathwing.

You can be initiated into both. Azrael was, even prior to being the Supreme Grand Master.
Sergeant Naaman was a member of the Deathwing AND Ravenwing as well.

Not simultaneously though I'd guess.

Being made a member of one does not mean you lose your membership in the other.

The Deathwing, Ravenwing, and the Inner Circle is essentially the Dark Angels' veterancy markers. The more combat effective you are and the more trusted you are--the more seniority you gain.

It does though. They're simply moving from one company to another. When you are transferred from 10th company to 4th you don't retain your scout company designation. The secrecy tiers run throughout the chapter regardless of company or rank.

Presumably in the Dark Angels those who have served in the Deathwing or Ravenwing and moved on to other posts (generally to become sergeants in other companies, I would infer, since they are the chapter's elite) retain their membership of the appropriate circles of mystery and remain sworn to secrecy. If it's not exactly make perfectly clear in the fluff, it doesn't require large or improbable assumptions to make sense of it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It does though. They're simply moving from one company to another. When you are transferred from 10th company to 4th you don't retain your scout company designation. The secrecy tiers run throughout the chapter regardless of company or rank.

So by that logic then, when a member of the Sternguard is elevated to a Terminator squad--he loses his veterancy.

Sternguard isn't a company designation and neither is Terminator. Both imply membership in the 1st company I believe.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sternguard isn't a company designation and neither is Terminator. Both imply membership in the 1st company I believe.

And guess what?
Veteran Sergeants are members of the First Company in "Codex" Chapters.
Most of them have earned Crux Terminatus, uncountable battle honors, etc etc etc.

When you've "transferred" from the Tenth Company to the Fourth Company it marks your ascension from an Initiate to a full Battle-Brother.
Just like when, in the Dark Angels, you go from the Ravenwing to the Deathwing--you still retain your membership in the other.

I think you're thinking of Space Wolves. The wolf guard are loaned out everywhere.

Vetern Sergeants are just.... veteren sergeants...of their squad. Terminator honours doesn't mean you're 1st company it's just an honour, like a medal. All Marines in 1st company have Terminator Honours but not all Marines with Terminator honours are 1st company.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think you're thinking of Space Wolves. The wolf guard are loaned out everywhere.

And? The Wolves are not the only ones who do this. Almost every Chapter does this--it's just that Wolf Guard are an example of it simply because they earn a noticeable title.

Veteran Sergeants are just.... veteran sergeants...of their squad.

In some cases? Yes. In most cases though, no that's not the case.

Terminator honours doesn't mean you're 1st company it's just an honour, like a medal.

Because Terminator Honours are earned based on the deeds of the individual. If you've earned Terminator Honours, you are actually considered a 'veteran' and are feasibly part of the First Company.

All Marines in 1st company have Terminator Honours but not all Marines with Terminator honours are 1st company.

That's not entirely correct. All Marines who have Terminator Honours have served in the First Company.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think you're thinking of Space Wolves. The wolf guard are loaned out everywhere.

And? The Wolves are not the only ones who do this. Almost every Chapter does this--it's just that Wolf Guard are an example of it simply because they earn a noticeable title.

Veteran Sergeants are just.... veteran sergeants...of their squad.

In some cases? Yes. In most cases though, no that's not the case.

Terminator honours doesn't mean you're 1st company it's just an honour, like a medal.

Because Terminator Honours are earned based on the deeds of the individual. If you've earned Terminator Honours, you are actually considered a 'veteran' and are feasibly part of the First Company.

All Marines in 1st company have Terminator Honours but not all Marines with Terminator honours are 1st company.

That's not entirely correct. All Marines who have Terminator Honours have served in the First Company.

- You were saying Codex chapters do such and such. Space Wolves are obviously not codex.
- Where are you getting this from? Every squad has a sergeant. They are part of the squad. They're not on secondment from 1st. What if you had 90 veteran sergeats? There'd be no 1st company.
- There a difference between being a veteran (small v) and Veteran Company. Just because someone says you're a veteran doesn't mean they're saying your first company.
- source? A veteran sergeant's +1 A is just there to represent his veterancy. Not his 1st companyness

Now sure why you're arguing this. How does it make sense for a marine to be a member of both the 1st company and the 2nd company at the same time? How is that fair to either company? If you mean in an honourary way like "Once Ravenwing always Ravenwing" or something like that, fine. But organizationally it makes no sense.

The Deathwing is not the 1st company. Everyone in the 1st company is also in the Deathwing, but the reverse is not true.

There are members of the Deathwing scattered about all levels of the Dark Angels organization.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Deathwing is not the 1st company. Everyone in the 1st company is also in the Deathwing, but the reverse is not true.

There are members of the Deathwing scattered about all levels of the Dark Angels organization.

Deathwing is the name for 1st company! http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwing

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Deathwing is not the 1st company. Everyone in the 1st company is also in the Deathwing, but the reverse is not true.

There are members of the Deathwing scattered about all levels of the Dark Angels organization.

Deathwing is the name for 1st company! http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwing

Deathwing is ALSO the name of the 1st company. There a lots of guys in the Deathwing who are not in the 1st company.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Now sure why you're arguing this.

Who's arguing? You have no clear what I'm saying, despite me being fairly clear about it.

How does it make sense for a marine to be a member of both the 1st company and the 2nd company at the same time? How is that fair to either company? If you mean in an honourary way like "Once Ravenwing always Ravenwing" or something like that, fine. But organizationally it makes no sense.

"Organizationally" having been a member of the Ravenwing or Deathwing means nothing, because members are not simply being transferred into the Company itself. They're being inducted into a level of the Chapter's secrets alongside of this. You don't get inducted into the Ravenwing or Deathwing based upon a rotational cycle like in Chapters adhering to the Codex strictly.

Veterancy within the Dark Angels by itself does not mean anything. Veterancy and being trustworthy and being able to keep your mouth shut or operate independently without any faltering in terms of loyalty to the Chapter will get you somewhere.


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DarknessEternal wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Deathwing is not the 1st company. Everyone in the 1st company is also in the Deathwing, but the reverse is not true.

There are members of the Deathwing scattered about all levels of the Dark Angels organization.

Deathwing is the name for 1st company! http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwing

Deathwing is ALSO the name of the 1st company. There a lots of guys in the Deathwing who are not in the 1st company.

Who are not currently in the 1st Company, specifically.

Let's get the tone a little more polite and friendly guys, shall we? I've just pruned some posts off the thread. Let's take this opportunity to re-calibrate and treat our fellow fans like friends, okay?

Thanks.