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So I was reading about the inner circle of the Dark Angels and how that inner circle has an inner circles and that one has an inner circle too and I don't get it. I mean, what's to know? When you're told your first story about heroic Dark Angels coming home to comrades who've become monsters you should be able to put 2 and 2 together. Not to mention that thing were you're an original Legion that doesn't have a home planet but flies around on a giant fragment of a planet...
What's with the trust tiers? I suppose there must be tiers to the secrets too but the main one about the half heresy - seems like that should be pretty well known throughout the chapter.

There is no secret - trust me....

Yes, that's what they keep telling the new guys after the keep telling them more interations of that story where the heroes come back from battle to find their comrades changed.....

Since the Dark Angels are in general good enough to know how to keep secrets from the rest of the Imperium, it doesn't seem too strange to me that the more senior members would be amazing at keeping secrets even from the other Battle Brothers.

The lowest members could just know that Luther, and allied Dark Angels, attacked the Lion out of Jealousy.

While the lowest member of the secret ladder slowly climbs(assuming he hasn't been killed), He could learn that is was because Luther was tainted by Chaos

On the next rung(ladder metaphor is still going), he could learn that Luther muttered some nonsense of "watchers of the Dark" taking the Lion\

and he just keeps climbing the ladder of Secrets, until he learns that Luther Spoke the truth and the Lion is within the rock, sleeping and waiting for the moment where he will return and lead the Dark Angels in a New Crusade.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

and he just keeps climbing the ladder of Secrets, until he learns that Luther Spoke the truth and the Lion is within the rock, sleeping and waiting for the moment where he will return and lead the Dark Angels in a New Crusade.

Maybe we need to get more into the secrets. What do mean Luther spoke the truth? Also in the latest codex doesn't say that Luther is alive within the rock? Where does it say The Lion is still alive?

Somewhere in the many fluff articles for Dark Angels (don't know the source) there is a story that Azrael (the current Supreme Grand Master) is the only one to know (besides the Watchers that care for him) that the Lion is in the Rock. That is why Luther keeps saying the Lion is close and shall return.

Now this may have been retconned, or misremembered, or a lie, but that's what I recall.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
The lowest members could just know that Luther, and allied Dark Angels, attacked the Lion out of Jealousy.

The lowest ranking Dark Angels aren't even aware there was a secession.

I guess you learn that when you join the Deathwing (once again don't see how you couldn't know for that long) but just because you're Deathwing doesn't mean you're part of the inner circle. Who knows what separates those two tiers.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
The lowest members could just know that Luther, and allied Dark Angels, attacked the Lion out of Jealousy.

The lowest ranking Dark Angels aren't even aware there was a secession.

Even better! More rungs to the Ladder of Secrets!

@ kamikaze, 1. Luther spoke the truth about The Lion being in the rock, since a Previous rung was Luther went batty and made stuff up about the Lion.
2. in the Second edtion Codex Angels of Death ( Another wonderful find at a flea Market. Friend Bought it, not me. Regret it so much) they had a passage about the Lion still being in the Rock and it was a secret that very few, including the Emperor, knew.

When do they find out about 'the fallen' and Cypher?

Howard A Treesong wrote:When do they find out about 'the fallen' and Cypher?

After they become Deathwing.

I think you have to take into account that people are considerably more stupid in the 41st millenium.

In the grim dark future of the 41st millenium, there is no deductive reasoning.

For what it's worth, Kam, I don't get it either.

Primarch Bloodcup has an interesting story to tell about the "secrets" of the Dark Angels.

It's all a lie.

For a Legion of my minions have brainwashed them about the origins and shame of their proud organization. They think what they want because of my will.

All bend before the might of Primarch Bloodcup.

Tee-hee!

All Pre-Deathwing members are only told fables that illustrate some aspect of the true story. When they join the the Deathwing, they are told about the Fallen. Only The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows about Luther, and no one knows about the Lion resting in The Rock except the Watchers in the Dark.

Each successor chapter has it's own Inner Circle, but they are all subordinate the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels (In essence, the DA are still legion strength and each chapter acts as more of a grand company). That is why Azrael has the title SUPREME Grand Master of the Dark Angels.

The Mad Tanker wrote:All Pre-Deathwing members are only told fables that illustrate some aspect of the true story. When they join the the Deathwing, they are told about the Fallen. Only The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows about Luther, and no one knows about the Lion resting in The Rock except the Watchers in the Dark.

Watchers and the Emperor.

Jimsolo wrote:For what it's worth, Kam, I don't get it either.

Ya, other chapters have had trouble with heretics within the ranks but they don't form a secret society around it. What they've done to cover it up is worse than the original problem in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Mad Tanker wrote:All Pre-Deathwing members are only told fables that illustrate some aspect of the true story. When they join the the Deathwing, they are told about the Fallen. Only The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows about Luther, and no one knows about the Lion resting in The Rock except the Watchers in the Dark.

Each successor chapter has it's own Inner Circle, but they are all subordinate the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels (In essence, the DA are still legion strength and each chapter acts as more of a grand company). That is why Azrael has the title SUPREME Grand Master of the Dark Angels.

Right but after putting in 200 years of service into the chapter you start to realize your chapter is quite secretive. Then you hear the 20th interation of the fable....hello? Pretty sure you know what's up. There's still a lot of downtime to think about things on the insteller planet fragment ship.

Actually I like the theory that the unforgiven are all secretly still working under Azreal's direct command. That would definitely be a secret kept to only the chapter master tier.

They "don't know" because quite likely the Tale of Two-Heads Talking and the various iterations that they're told are not told like "Oh hey, you know that story we told you? Here's what really happened..."--especially considering that the Tale of Two-Heads Talking did actually happen.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:For what it's worth, Kam, I don't get it either.

Ya, other chapters have had trouble with heretics within the ranks but they don't form a secret society around it. What they've done to cover it up is worse than the original problem in the first place.

The bastards! It's like the back half of 24, Season 8

I think it's more the issue that half the chapter turned to the dark side ("Hey, weren't we good guessers when we chose the name of our chapter?") rather than the odd individual here or there. That's what they keep secret.

The whole inner circle thing falls apart when you consider that the Ravenwing are sent to hunt down the Fallen.

"Ok guv, what are we hunting?"
"A cursed heretic space marine!"
"Cracking stuff, what does he look like?"
"Erm... well he will have black armour and his chapter badge is a winged sword."
"Hey, wasn't that what we looked like before The Horus Heresy?"
"Right Jenkins, report to the Chaplains for self flagellation."

As of right now, like I have to say every bleedin' time this topic comes up, we did not see "half the Chapter turn to the Dark Side".

We have seen the Lion's trusted confidante and mentor lead a violent secession from the Imperium, and likely taking the new recruits to the Legion with him.

Meh, I haven't got to the DA books in the HH series yet. I'm going on what JJ said in the last codex

Which is what was in the mini-dex from two editions prior.
And another edition prior to that.

The Dark Angels Codex is a fething joke. It's copy/paste of the worst fething caliber, and annoys me endlessly because no work worth mentioning went into it outside of Alessio fething Cavatore making everything not Terminator or Biker overcosted and undereffective.

So yeah. Feth you Cavatore.

Flashman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:For what it's worth, Kam, I don't get it either.

Ya, other chapters have had trouble with heretics within the ranks but they don't form a secret society around it. What they've done to cover it up is worse than the original problem in the first place.

The bastards! It's like the back half of 24, Season 8

I think it's more the issue that half the chapter turned to the dark side ("Hey, weren't we good guessers when we chose the name of our chapter?") rather than the odd individual here or there. That's what they keep secret.

The whole inner circle thing falls apart when you consider that the Ravenwing are sent to hunt down the Fallen.

"Ok guv, what are we hunting?"
"A cursed heretic space marine!"
"Cracking stuff, what does he look like?"
yeah, there's that little reoccurring problem too. Yet, somehow Ravenwing are a tier below Deathwing in the giant convoluted ladder of secrets.

"Erm... well he will have black armour and his chapter badge is a winged sword."
"Hey, wasn't that what we looked like before The Horus Heresy?"
"Right Jenkins, report to the Chaplains for self flagellation."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry having some technical difficulties with the quotes and iOS. Was just going to say basically I agree and that's quite the reoccurring problem yet somehow Ravenwing is a tier below the Deathwing.

Well, if you read the Angels of Darkness book, it explains a lot about the fallen, Luther's betrayal, El'Johnson, and who/how many know about them. Also hints that Luther didn't necessarily turn to chaos (as far as the interrogated one believes), and that Lyon was 'on the fence' when it came to picking a side in the HH. Basically he wanted to see who was winning, and be on their side. Stupid emo-half traitor-psychopathic-shoot-your-own-planet-into-oblivion-then-fall-asleep-in-the-biggest-piece primarch...

With how the Horus Heresy is playing out currently, this whole thing about Jonson being "on the fence" is a crock. Read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's "Savage Weapons" short story for a good example of this. Jonson was far from sitting "on the fence", he was far out from Terra and hunting some of the other Traitor Legions alongside of the other Loyalists who knew they could not make it to Terra.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:yet somehow Ravenwing is a tier below the Deathwing.

What?

The Ravenwing operate independently of the rest of the Dark Angels for the most part. They have their own cadre of veteran Scouts, Bikers, etc that are dispatched to areas where the Fallen are reported. They know what and who the Fallen are, but not the specifics of the Fall of Caliban itself.

You don't need to know one to know the other.

Basically,

Supreme Master man knows everything, except that Lion is chilling in the rock, because only Luther and the Watchers know, and who believes their ramblings.

The Deathwing knows everything except that Luther is still alive.

The ravenwing know what happened, except that Luther led it, they are just hunting down chaotic ex-bros.

The rest of the chapter knows there was a big nasty back way back, and that the ravenwing and deathwing are too important to do regular marine missions, and seem to have a really important prerogative.

Tada.

@Kan.
Yes, Ravenwing doesn't know as much as Deathwing. Yet they are the "first responders" to Fallen alerts.

Anyways, if indeed that part Gav Thorpe put out about Johnson not really being loyal and Luther was. The old switcharoo if you will. (I haven't read the book so that's just what I heard). Now that would be a secret! That would justify everything they've done! However, like you said the HH books have elaborated that that's not the case.

You missed the point Canuck.

The Ravenwing know who and what the Fallen are. They know that they're Dark Angels who abandoned the Legion and threw their lot in with the Enemies of Mankind.

They don't need to know why or how it happened. They just need to know that the honor of the Dark Angels has been stained.

Plus, many members of the Ravenwing are also members of the Deathwing. You don't necessarily need to be wearing Terminator Armour to be a member of the Deathwing.

Actually i think most, if not all, Ravenwing sergeants are full blown inner circle members.

Which negates the "How does the Ravenwing not know?" part, in either case.