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Well not death but the dead. As most mythologies will state, there is usually a great difference between the two.
Hades: God of the Dead (Greek)
Odin: God of Death (Norse)
Hel: Goddess of the Dead (Norse)
Anubis and Osiris: Protector and Lord of the Dead respectively (Egyptian)

For the most part (except in Norse mythology) the God of the Dead is more powerful and lords it over the numerous souls, the God of Death is typically more grim reapery, just a collector rather then a lord

Oriallis wrote:Really I think that Slannesh hasn't maintained all that soul energy that the Eldar gave hir during the fall. Most likely he/she used most of it to beat Khaine and secure a semi-stable position among the other chaos gods. Currently Slannesh has to rely on the Dark Eldar and humans, along with the occasional Eldar. Also one of the things about the difference between Slannesh and Ynnead is that Slannesh is actively using energy in corrupting, tempting and doing whatever other perverse thing he/she wants to, meanwhile Ynnead is bidding his time, gathering his power, ready to release it all in a climactic battle in the Ranna Dandra, in other words not unlike when Slannesh bid hir time before the fall and then arose and almost wiped out the Eldar pantheon.

Oh I rather like that idea; and it makes a great deal of since as well. Also how much of the psi energy was just lost is the blast that was hir creation. Slaanesh could not have retained all of that power. Perhaps, a good deal was lost to the other Gods in the "Great Game"; and Slaanesh's fortunes waned.


I still don't get how this Ynnead plan can work though. How does this new God resist Slaanesh's charm's. The Gods are formed from emotional energy, right? Well, what does Ynnead represent exactly? Death is not an emotion. I would think that the opposite of Slaanesh would be a God of temperance, chastity, virtue, etc... Or is that by being emotionless that Ynnead would be immune to the gods powers?

Ynnead is composed of the Path bound Craftworld Eldar. Being composed of souls used to rigid self control and rejection of Slaanesh's ideals, Ynnead would also likely be the antithesis of the wild hedonistic Slaanesh, who was formed from decadent Eldar. Khaine was not absorbed by Slaanesh like the other gods, because the bloodlust and aggression he embodied was so diametrically different from Slaanesh, so they fought instead. Ynnead might not be a very nice god, given how self righteous and self absorbed the Craftworlders can be, but the puritanical ideals embodied by it perhaps mean it is in the same category as Khaine, in being not able to be directlly absorbed by Slaanesh.

You also have to consider that if we assume that Ynnead is at least as Strong as Khaine (which is key if the plan is to work) then Slannesh will definately have a run for hir money. Consider this: after nomming most of the Eldar population and Pantheon (Including Asuayan) Slannesh still couldn't fully destroy Khaine, (although ripping him apart into tons of little pieces was still pretty good) Now the tables are turned, and a good suggestion would be too fuse the Avatars with Ynnead as well (Really I never understood why reuniting the pieces of Khaine isn't one of the Eldar's primary objectives)

Khaine was defeated by Slaanesh the first time and split apart. Since then, Slaanesh has built up a following among humans and amassed more power. Since then, the Avatars of Khaine have only dwindled in number as Craftworlds get destroyed or die off. Any reunited Khaine entering the warp again would likely draw immediate attention from Slaanesh. With Khaine likely weaker than before and Slaanesh stronger, Slaanesh could conceivably finish the job and destroy Khaine completely this time.

Being exiled to the material universe is a form of refuge for Khaine's fragments, as Slaanesh cannot directly act except through agents such as mortal followers or daemonic servants in those cases where the Infinity Circuit is compromised.

Well isn't there an Apoc unit for Eldar that is essentially, two Craftworlds' avatars fused together to form a single entity?

I'd still say that if Ynnead is off to fight Slannesh he should take the Avatar's with him, every bit of power counts in the Ranna Dandra.

Oriallis wrote:Well isn't there an Apoc unit for Eldar that is essentially, two Craftworlds' avatars fused together to form a single entity?

No there isn't. You are misremembering.

Ynnead is a dud plan, anyway. Cegorach is the future of the Eldar race.

Iracundus wrote:

Oriallis wrote:Well isn't there an Apoc unit for Eldar that is essentially, two Craftworlds' avatars fused together to form a single entity?

No there isn't. You are misremembering.

Well considering you can make apoc sheet, yes if not there should be.

I could'e sworn I heard of some unit like that...

Well there definately should be something like that.

It's not much of a far cry to put him back together if he was taken apart, reminds me of Osiris from Egyptian mythology being torn apart by Set and put back together by Isis and Horus (No not the Warmaster, Osiris's eagleheaded son)
Or Cronus the titan from the Greeks being torn apart by the gods and his essence tossed into Taurtarus.

All I'm saying is that mythologies have proven that tearing a god apart into a million pieces is seldom a guarantee of his staying that way.

Imagine this:

1942, a chaosgod takes all of the german population, some 30million at that time.

He has a bank account full of 30million souls.


Up to 2011, there's some 90million people living in germany, in the meantime, 2 generations have come and gone. Any god of death collecting the souls continuously would have outgrown the god of 1942 already, having twice or thrice as many souls in his bank account. Come the next generation, he'll have ten times the souls in his bank account.




This is what the Eldar create with Ynnead. Sure, Slaanesh took 99% or so of the Eldar souls at one point some 10.000years in the past.


So what?

Since then, multiple generations have come and gone, it is easily possible for Ynnead to have grown bigger than Slaanesh already, but for his wakeupcall the last Eldar has to die.



The plan of creating Ynnead to defeat she who thirsts is not a bad one at all, imho.

Slaanesh has not just sat there doing nothing. Slaanesh has a large human following now, and even if human souls are individually less powerful (i.e. less nutritious) for Slaanesh, there are so many more humans than Eldar.

However consider this exspansion on the analogy though. That god of 1942 has been using that bank account of souls, while the other hasn't at all.

The closest thing I could compare it to is that Slannesh fell onto a very large inheritance of souls and went on a shopping spree with it (obtaining a stablish position among the other Chaos god) now the other souls that he/she's getting are more like a regular paycheck (for a god) and he/she's using it to get by. (Play the great game)

Meanwhile Ynnead has a savings account and doesn't use any of it, while it's growing at a slower rate then Slannesh's is, there's no deduction from it. Essentially when he's takes on Slannesh he's cashing in on that eintire bank account. Meanwhile Slannesh would have no more than an average amount of souls (probably less considering that he/she's one of the weaker chaos gods)

My chips are in for Ynnead on this conflict

Oriallis wrote:However consider this exspansion on the analogy though. That god of 1942 has been using that bank account of souls, while the other hasn't at all.

The closest thing I could compare it to is that Slannesh fell onto a very large inheritance of souls and went on a shopping spree with it (obtaining a stablish position among the other Chaos god) now the other souls that he/she's getting are more like a regular paycheck (for a god) and he/she's using it to get by. (Play the great game)

Meanwhile Ynnead has a savings account and doesn't use any of it, while it's growing at a slower rate then Slannesh's is, there's no deduction from it. Essentially when he's takes on Slannesh he's cashing in on that eintire bank account. Meanwhile Slannesh would have no more than an average amount of souls (probably less considering that he/she's one of the weaker chaos gods)

My chips are in for Ynnead on this conflict

Ynnead has lost souls from things like Craftworlds dying or having their Infinity Circuits consumed, such as the incidents in the Tyranid and Chaos Daemons Codices. Also as revealed in the Dark Eldar Codex, only a small number of the total number of Craftworlds that were originally built actually survived the Fall. Ynnead is being formed from a vastly compromised population base.

Saying Slaanesh is the weakest of the Big 4 is like saying someone is one of the poorest of the multi-billionaires. They are still vastly more powerful than just about anything and are only weaker in comparison to a small number of peers. Slaanesh has cults all over the Imperium and daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. How many billions of humans does that add up to? How much stronger does an Eldar soul have to be to have any hope of evening out such a massive difference in numbers? Twice as strong? 10x as strong? 100x? 1000x? 10000x? The Eldar are more psychic than humans but it is far fetched to expect all Eldar souls to be that many orders of magnitude stronger than the human soul.

Slaanesh is like the guy earning a million pennies vs. Ynnead the guy earning a thousand dollars.

Iracundus wrote:
Slaanesh is like the guy earning a million pennies vs. Ynnead the guy earning a thousand dollars.

And Slaanesh spends all of those pennies just as fast as he earns them to maintain his position in the pantheon, while Ynnead puts away some money year after year. Slaanesh is huge and powerful, but mostly fixed in size. If the Eldar can hold out long enough, Ynnead could eventually be powerful enough to challenge Slaanesh.

I believe the bit about Ynnead coming when the last Eldar has died isn't a reference to needing every single Eldar soul, or any specific and exact number either. Ynnead will just wait until it has gathered every last ounce of energy it can possibly get. Once the Eldar race is dead (or at least the Craftworld Eldar), Ynnead is only going to get weaker with time, and there is no choice but to attack.

Iracundus wrote:

Oriallis wrote:However consider this exspansion on the analogy though. That god of 1942 has been using that bank account of souls, while the other hasn't at all.

The closest thing I could compare it to is that Slannesh fell onto a very large inheritance of souls and went on a shopping spree with it (obtaining a stablish position among the other Chaos god) now the other souls that he/she's getting are more like a regular paycheck (for a god) and he/she's using it to get by. (Play the great game)

Meanwhile Ynnead has a savings account and doesn't use any of it, while it's growing at a slower rate then Slannesh's is, there's no deduction from it. Essentially when he's takes on Slannesh he's cashing in on that eintire bank account. Meanwhile Slannesh would have no more than an average amount of souls (probably less considering that he/she's one of the weaker chaos gods)

My chips are in for Ynnead on this conflict

Ynnead has lost souls from things like Craftworlds dying or having their Infinity Circuits consumed, such as the incidents in the Tyranid and Chaos Daemons Codices. Also as revealed in the Dark Eldar Codex, only a small number of the total number of Craftworlds that were originally built actually survived the Fall. Ynnead is being formed from a vastly compromised population base.

Saying Slaanesh is the weakest of the Big 4 is like saying someone is one of the poorest of the multi-billionaires. They are still vastly more powerful than just about anything and are only weaker in comparison to a small number of peers. Slaanesh has cults all over the Imperium and daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. How many billions of humans does that add up to? How much stronger does an Eldar soul have to be to have any hope of evening out such a massive difference in numbers? Twice as strong? 10x as strong? 100x? 1000x? 10000x? The Eldar are more psychic than humans but it is far fetched to expect all Eldar souls to be that many orders of magnitude stronger than the human soul.

Slaanesh is like the guy earning a million pennies vs. Ynnead the guy earning a thousand dollars.

It's still a very rare occurance for a craftworld to fall, and even when they do it doesn't always mean their infinity circuit is wiped out. Eldar would consider recovering a craftworld's infinity circuit as a very high priority, heck they don't even need to do it alone. The Grey Knights shave helped them out before because of the whole Covenant of Isha (or whatever their pact is called)

You're also still ignoring that Slannesh uses those souls on a daily basis, and most likely can't even spare to save up those souls (since while he/she's, still a chaos god, the other chaos gods still consider hir to be something of a lesser opponent) he/she needs to use those souls to keep hirself in the game. Meanwhile Ynnead doesn't need to do a thing with the souls but wait, it's like a savings account.

If you have two individuals, one has a larger income then the other, however the one with the smaller income doesn't need to worry about upkeep, it's not going to take long at all for him to surpass the other's amount saved.

Slaanesh isn't stronger for all the human followers, hirs weaker for not having had a huge overdose of rich Eldar souls to devour. Humans do not generate nearly the same power as an Eldar soul does, and a vast majority of humans go to the other three chaos gods (whom I believe were created by humans to begin with, no?)

As for Khaine, he's weak. He no longer has a vast amount of Eldar worshipping him. The Dark Eldar are an unknown factor in devotion to him, and non-Dark Eldar are as they always were distant to him.
Khaine is in pieces to avoid being devoured by Slaanesh (or one of the other Gods). As he cannot exist in larger quantities on the material plane and the immaterial plane is far too lethal for him he resides as molten statues on the Craftworlds

Mahtamori wrote:Slaanesh isn't stronger for all the human followers, hirs weaker for not having had a huge overdose of rich Eldar souls to devour. Humans do not generate nearly the same power as an Eldar soul does, and a vast majority of humans go to the other three chaos gods (whom I believe were created by humans to begin with, no?)

As for Khaine, he's weak. He no longer has a vast amount of Eldar worshipping him. The Dark Eldar are an unknown factor in devotion to him, and non-Dark Eldar are as they always were distant to him.
Khaine is in pieces because he couldn't devoured by Slaanesh (or one of the other Gods). As he cannot exist in larger quantities on the material plane and the immaterial plane is far too lethal for him he resides as molten statues on the Craftworlds

Fixed that for you, Understand that Kaela mesha Khaine is not weak by any means Avatars are nasty creatures that will gladly turn champions into molten slag.

Also considering that he's one of the only gods that the Eldar knows is alive (In a way), there's not exactly many other gods for the Eldar to worship. Harlequins worship Cegorach, DE the Dark Muses (And Kahine for the Incubi). Eldar don't know Isha is alive and they know the other gods are dead.

If there's one thing that Khaine is lacking in its competition among the Eldar.

FlammingGaunt wrote:Fixed that for you, Understand that Kaela mesha Khaine is not weak by any means Avatars are nasty creatures that will gladly turn champions into molten slag.

They should be powerful and nasty creatures but somehow they've become the punching bags of SM champions. I mean if you want to show how good and shiny hero is - let him kill Avatar in some humiliating fashion. They've really became Worfs of wh40k..

Agreed, just once I'd like to read somewhere about some cocky ultramarine or Blood Raven or whatever going toe to toe against an Avatar of the Eldar God of War, the Great Khaela Mensha Khaine... and failing. Preferably in a gruesome fashion involving them being fused into a solid piece with their power armor melted to slag.

Oh yeah that would be awesome...

Unfortunately that's never going to happen since Avatars are just another trophy for the great all powerful Space Marines...

No I'm not bitter or anything...

Oriallis wrote:Agreed, just once I'd like to read somewhere about some cocky ultramarine or Blood Raven or whatever going toe to toe against an Avatar of the Eldar God of War, the Great Khaela Mensha Khaine... and failing. Preferably in a gruesome fashion involving them being fused into a solid piece with their power armor melted to slag.

Oh yeah that would be awesome...

Unfortunately that's never going to happen since Avatars are just another trophy for the great all powerful Space Marines...

No I'm not bitter or anything...

Note the burning Space Marine at the bottom of the picture.

Macok wrote:

FlammingGaunt wrote:Fixed that for you, Understand that Kaela mesha Khaine is not weak by any means Avatars are nasty creatures that will gladly turn champions into molten slag.

They should be powerful and nasty creatures but somehow they've become the punching bags of SM champions. I mean if you want to show how good and shiny hero is - let him kill Avatar in some humiliating fashion. They've really became Worfs of wh40k..

Well ya in the fluff space marines can do anything, Literally one story a librarian takes on 3 zoanthropes and a hive tyrant in a psychic duel. Bad Fluff is bad some of it is best ignore I'm looking at you BA and Necrons.

So could it be possible that Cegorach and Ynnead are, in one form or another, the same?

This would give the Eldar race a better chance facing off against Slaanesh.

Thom wrote:So could it be possible that Cegorach and Ynnead are, in one form or another, the same?

This would give the Eldar race a better chance facing off against Slaanesh.

Well that would make Ynnead the creepiest god of all, laughter and death..... so he'd be the killer clown god.

While there are a few points that could support this, I doubt it.
Simply because it just doesn't feel right and I would probably hate it if it were true.

archont wrote:Imagine this:

1942, a chaosgod takes all of the german population, some 30million at that time.

He has a bank account full of 30million souls.


Up to 2011, there's some 90million people living in germany, in the meantime, 2 generations have come and gone. Any god of death collecting the souls continuously would have outgrown the god of 1942 already, having twice or thrice as many souls in his bank account. Come the next generation, he'll have ten times the souls in his bank account.




This is what the Eldar create with Ynnead. Sure, Slaanesh took 99% or so of the Eldar souls at one point some 10.000years in the past.


So what?

Since then, multiple generations have come and gone, it is easily possible for Ynnead to have grown bigger than Slaanesh already, but for his wakeupcall the last Eldar has to die.



The plan of creating Ynnead to defeat she who thirsts is not a bad one at all, imho.

Yes, but what you're not considering is that since 1942, the chaos god has been going all over Europe taking souls, and Germany's population is a fraction of what it once was, since most of it is now a rift in the Space-Time Continuum. Then there's the Germans who loose their Spirit stones before death, or which are destroyed before being united with the Infinity Circuit. And of course, the Chaos God also absorbed the gods of Germany.

So even if Ynnead gets every soul of each dead Eldar that Slaanesh doesn't nom, and every Eldar soul is worth a hundred of every other race, Slaanesh still wins, because it can feed off the pleasure of living souls as well as the death of its servants.

Also, Tzeentch is unlikely to let Slaanesh be killed, since it would mean Khorne would have no one to focus his aggression on but Tzeentch himself.

Ok couple of things I'd like to contribute, some less helpful then others, but oh well.

Firstly reading the codex it doesn't seem like Ynnead is a "plan" as everyone seems to be making him out to be, it looks to me more like some powerful farseers have looked ahead and gone "WTF! Hey everyone, guess what may happen...", also as for if Dark Eldar and Harles count, I think you'd need to take it from the Farseer perspective (as they're the ones saying "when every Eldar are dead"). So if Farseers disown Dark Eldar and Harles as "Eldar" the it's just the craftworld Eldar that count. To my understanding Dark Eldar are considered Dark Kin, and therefore still Eldar.

Likewise, the Chaos gods are keeping the power balance between them, so either all of them are getting more powerful or Slaanesh is maintaining the same level of power (giveing Ynnead a chance to catch up). I'll leave others more well versed on Chaos lore to answer that.

As for how Ynnead may win? Cegorach may possibly throw is hand in to help. Isha is thought to be dead by the eldar, is stated to be in Nurgle's, um, er... "care" in the chaos fluff, so she may directly help, or somehow convince Nurgle to focus on Slaanesh. Also seeing as he'll be the god of the dead made up of the entire Eldar race, he may very well be able to go "Oh hi Slaanesh, I'm Ynnead. Oh and you know all those Eldar souls you currently have? Well they're mine now, 'kay. Thanks. Bye." This would mainly be based on the whole "like attracts like" principle.

Now if we want to put Khaine back together, how about giving all his shards to the Harles? They and the Laughing God seem to have done well hiding from Slaanesh in the webways thus far.

Durza wrote:

archont wrote:Imagine this:

1942, a chaosgod takes all of the german population, some 30million at that time.

He has a bank account full of 30million souls.


Up to 2011, there's some 90million people living in germany, in the meantime, 2 generations have come and gone. Any god of death collecting the souls continuously would have outgrown the god of 1942 already, having twice or thrice as many souls in his bank account. Come the next generation, he'll have ten times the souls in his bank account.




This is what the Eldar create with Ynnead. Sure, Slaanesh took 99% or so of the Eldar souls at one point some 10.000years in the past.


So what?

Since then, multiple generations have come and gone, it is easily possible for Ynnead to have grown bigger than Slaanesh already, but for his wakeupcall the last Eldar has to die.



The plan of creating Ynnead to defeat she who thirsts is not a bad one at all, imho.

Yes, but what you're not considering is that since 1942, the chaos god has been going all over Europe taking souls, and Germany's population is a fraction of what it once was, since most of it is now a rift in the Space-Time Continuum. Then there's the Germans who loose their Spirit stones before death, or which are destroyed before being united with the Infinity Circuit. And of course, the Chaos God also absorbed the gods of Germany.

So even if Ynnead gets every soul of each dead Eldar that Slaanesh doesn't nom, and every Eldar soul is worth a hundred of every other race, Slaanesh still wins, because it can feed off the pleasure of living souls as well as the death of its servants.

Also, Tzeentch is unlikely to let Slaanesh be killed, since it would mean Khorne would have no one to focus his aggression on but Tzeentch himself.

Why does everyone think that the chaos are friends in any aspect, they loathe each other just others more so. Also who knows Ynnead might be part of Tzeench's grand schism. The ponint is Ynnead could somehow absorb all Elar soul energy upon birth just like Slaanesh did. Didn't think about that did you?

Durza wrote:

archont wrote:Imagine this:

1942, a chaosgod takes all of the german population, some 30million at that time.

He has a bank account full of 30million souls.


Up to 2011, there's some 90million people living in germany, in the meantime, 2 generations have come and gone. Any god of death collecting the souls continuously would have outgrown the god of 1942 already, having twice or thrice as many souls in his bank account. Come the next generation, he'll have ten times the souls in his bank account.




This is what the Eldar create with Ynnead. Sure, Slaanesh took 99% or so of the Eldar souls at one point some 10.000years in the past.


So what?

Since then, multiple generations have come and gone, it is easily possible for Ynnead to have grown bigger than Slaanesh already, but for his wakeupcall the last Eldar has to die.



The plan of creating Ynnead to defeat she who thirsts is not a bad one at all, imho.

Yes, but what you're not considering is that since 1942, the chaos god has been going all over Europe taking souls, and Germany's population is a fraction of what it once was, since most of it is now a rift in the Space-Time Continuum. Then there's the Germans who loose their Spirit stones before death, or which are destroyed before being united with the Infinity Circuit. And of course, the Chaos God also absorbed the gods of Germany.

So even if Ynnead gets every soul of each dead Eldar that Slaanesh doesn't nom, and every Eldar soul is worth a hundred of every other race, Slaanesh still wins, because it can feed off the pleasure of living souls as well as the death of its servants.

Also, Tzeentch is unlikely to let Slaanesh be killed, since it would mean Khorne would have no one to focus his aggression on but Tzeentch himself.

You keep ignoring the simple fact that Slannesh is using the souls, Ynnead is not...
A smaller amount that you don't need to draw upon will always grow beyond a larger amount that you do need to draw upon.