Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Personally, I don't think every single Imperial Guard regiment that comes into contact with daemons is exterminated. Mainly because there is so much conflicting evidence that suggests otherwise, but also because that would make every battle against daemons very, very pointless.

I never liked that piece of fluff, where inquisition and grey knights go about committing genocide. I know the Imperium of Man is grimdark, but it still doesn't feel correctly placed in the fluff. It just doesn't make sense, mostly because no one ever executes their own soldiers to keep themselves secret, not when you have a galaxies worth of territory to defend, you are going to be known sooner or later no matter what, the trillions of Imperial citizens make sure of that. Two because if allied forces have fought and emerged victorious over Daemons serious enough for the Inquisition or Grey Knights to be called in, then I think they just proved themselves to be hardy enough to not go insane or fall to heresy.

LumenPraebeo wrote:I never liked that piece of fluff, where inquisition and grey knights go about committing genocide. I know the Imperium of Man is grimdark, but it still doesn't feel correctly placed in the fluff. It just doesn't make sense, mostly because no one ever executes their own soldiers to keep themselves secret, not when you have a galaxies worth of territory to defend, you are going to be known sooner or later no matter what, the trillions of Imperial citizens make sure of that. Two because if allied forces have fought and emerged victorious over Daemons serious enough for the Inquisition or Grey Knights to be called in, then I think they just proved themselves to be hardy enough to not go insane or fall to heresy.

If anything I think knowledge of the Grey Knights would bolster morale in the Imperium. Why give up the fight when help could be just around the corner?

Emperors Faithful wrote:If anything I think knowledge of the Grey Knights would bolster morale in the Imperium. Why give up the fight when help could be just around the corner?

Because they frequently do not show up in time, and would eventually get a reputation of being the FEMA of the grimdark future.

Ouze wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:If anything I think knowledge of the Grey Knights would bolster morale in the Imperium. Why give up the fight when help could be just around the corner?

Because they frequently do not show up in time, and would eventually get a reputation of being the FEMA of the grimdark future.

Of course they often don't show up just in time to show the day, but really who's going to tell everyone else that? Either the survivors tell others about the mystical Astartes-like beings that showed up to save the faithful Imperial servants from the wicked and daemons, or there are no survivors.

A more reasonable explanation I think would be that IG that fight Chaos and survive, keep getting sent to more Chaos related warzones until they whittled away and eventually destroyed. That way they can be safely written off as "KIA" and still accomplish some good for the Imperium. A few survivors or veterans might be siphoned off in the process for Inquisitors' retinues.

Of course the downside is that they may like the Volscani Cataphracts despair of the seeming hopelessness of their struggle and defect.

I think the GK should just get new armor, so people for example think they are ultramarines.

Tanith first have faced chaos and wast purged....

The thing I don't get about Armageddon is the Steel Legion.

When were they founded? Before the first war, second war or third war?

It can't be the first, as the GK's wiped all evidence of the previous settlers.

The second makes reference to Imperial Guard.

I can only see sources that seem to indicate that they have only taken part in the Third War, which is at the close of M41.

Seems like a very short time to raise an efficient mechanised legion.

Medium of Death wrote:The thing I don't get about Armageddon is the Steel Legion.

When were they founded? Before the first war, second war or third war?

It can't be the first, as the GK's wiped all evidence of the previous settlers.

The second makes reference to Imperial Guard.

I can only see sources that seem to indicate that they have only taken part in the Third War, which is at the close of M41.

Seems like a very short time to raise an efficient mechanised legion.

I'm not sure when the Steel Legion came about, but even if it was between Armageddon 2 and 3 that's a 57 year window. If we compare that to modern times it is readily apparent that a mechanized army can be raised in less time than that. Most of the nations fighting in the second world war had large mechanized formations operating at efficient, practiced levels in less than 10 years. Even if you call the late Cold War period the height of mechanization, that is still within 50 years of the first fully mechanized formations of early ww2.

Remember the timeframe of the 40k universe is huge. A lot can happen on a single planet in 50 years time.

The background is inconsistent on the subject; the simplest way to get around that inconsistency is to presume it exists in-game. Either it's the letter of the law but commonly ignored, or it's down to the judgement of individual inquisitors exercised case by case.

The Imperium is so vastly vast that many conflicts are resolved before significant Inquisition forces can arrive to force a purge or exterminatus.

The Inquisition is the be all and end all, at least according to them, but what rank of inquisitor actually has the authority to declare the purging of a population or battle group, or the complete destruction of a planet? Most imperials are conditioned to obey (and fear) the Inquistion blindly, but some officers with enough willpower or survival instinct would fight back if their entire regiment(s) were consigned to die. Add in those Astartes with some sense of honor who would oppose culling fellow warriors. Even non-Astartes allies are still allies.

Also the Inquisition itself is completely fractured, with various ordos, factions, and individual Inquisitors pushing their plans and agendas. High lords of Terra, sector and sub-sector governors, the Mechanicum....all of these elements in precarious balance, all the time. When the Inquistion acts, they must consider the ramifications very carefully. Not all do, in one instance the Space Wolves nearly declared war on the Inquisition, and in fact they knocked the snot out of a couple of Inquisition forces that tried to get pushy coming to Fenris. Granted, most Astartes are not as reactionary as the Wolves, but no Space Marine chapter is fond of outside Imperial meddling in whatever stretch of space they protect.

The purge on Armageddon happened because the conflict went on long enough, and was important enough, to warrant an immediate response from the Inquistion. The Inquistion recognized they couldn't blow up the planet, as it is critical for the ongoing wars. They could however, get rid of all the humans without enough power to avoid it, and ship in new populations to continue making war materials. Human beings are cheap and breed like rabbits, but gargantuan industrial infrastucture on a planetary scale, well, that's why everybody else keeps invading, right? If you are the Inquistion, it's the obvious choice. Chaos tainted revolt is often much harder to win against than outside invasion.

My point is that even the Iquisition has to tread carefully sometimes. Mostly they just keep their works as secret as possible. Occasionally they have to flash the Inquisitorial rosette and order it done, but the smart ones make sure they have the muscle AND authority to push it through. Nothing could be worse for the Inquistion than open defiance. Once that happens things spin further out of control, ultimate sanctions are used, and nobody wins....but the archenemy...

Kyrolon wrote:
I'm not sure when the Steel Legion came about, but even if it was between Armageddon 2 and 3 that's a 57 year window. If we compare that to modern times it is readily apparent that a mechanized army can be raised in less time than that. Most of the nations fighting in the second world war had large mechanized formations operating at efficient, practiced levels in less than 10 years. Even if you call the late Cold War period the height of mechanization, that is still within 50 years of the first fully mechanized formations of early ww2.

Remember the timeframe of the 40k universe is huge. A lot can happen on a single planet in 50 years time.

Didn't realise that the difference in years between 2 and 3 was so great.

Thought it would only be a couple at best.

Cheers Sir!

Krak_kirby wrote:The Inquisition is the be all and end all, at least according to them, but what rank of inquisitor actually has the authority to declare the purging of a population or battle group, or the complete destruction of a planet?

Though Inquisitors have varying titles within the Inquisition that carry their own weight, obligations and references, to the Imperium at large, there is only one rank: Inquisitor.

By the book, any Inquisitor (whether called, within the Inquisition, "Inquisitor", "Lord Inquisitor", "Grand Master", "Order Master" or whatever) can order the deaths of entire worlds, entire battlegroups, entire armies, whoever. In the reality of the situation, though, such orders are not given lightly, and almost never without the leave of that Inquisitor's own Ordo officials giving it the nod, as well as the Inquisitorial Conclave of that Sector (representing all 3 major Ordos as well as the local minor ones) giving it their seal of approval.

Any Inquisitor's authority, to the Imperium at large, is unimaginably vast and far-reaching. If his cause is true, and his Conclave supports him, then none but the Emperor Himself can countermand his word.

Psienesis wrote:Any Inquisitor's authority, to the Imperium at large, is unimaginably vast and far-reaching. If his cause is true, and his Conclave supports him, then none but the Emperor Himself can countermand his word.

To the average Imperial citizen, the Inquisition holds absolute power of life and death, I agree. However just as you qualified your statement about true causes and conclave support, the machiavellian labyrinth that is the Imperium is all about backroom deals, power brokering, information spin, and knowledge aquisition. Just like the real world...

Basically, if an Inquisitor (of any rank) wants to exterminate a world, consequences be damned, they have the authority to make the order.

I also agree they have the authority. Of course, if said Inquisitor is a fruitcake radical or doesn't cover his butt, said consequences may be that he and his retinue mysteriously disappear...

All I am saying is this: One who wields power and wants to keep it has to work within the system. The king is only king if everyone else believes it to be so. If a junior interrogator inquisitor orders an exterminatus, where does he go first? Above his superior, or above the superior's superior? Does he teleport straight to a warship and tell them to load cyclonic torpedos? Knock down the planetary governors door and demand he detonate stockpiles? He would certainly be within his authority, but who would recognise it? How long would the Imperium last if every half intelligent cultist that could fake an Inquistion rosette ordered exterminatus? Power doesn't exist in a vacuum. Everybody has power over something or someone, everybody is under the power of someone else...

AFAIK Inquisitorial Rosettes are very difficult to fake...
That said maybe the shock factor would work.

I think it is standard operating procedure to purge Guardsmen after contact with daemons but more often than not Inquisitors don't enforce this rule. Maybe they find it impractical or they're old softies and can't bring themselves to do it.

Contact with Grey Knights on the other hand - consider yourself dead. No mercy ever as far as they're concerned.

The truth is that the IoM purges IG regiments and civillians when certain authors write the fluff, and it ignores the whole "Chaos is the deepest and darkest of grimdark secrets" when other, more rational authors write the fluff.

Think about it... how many people in the IoM MUST know about Chaos just to do their jobs?

Navigators, Astartes, Every man, woman, and child on Cadia, every single Sanctioned Psyker... too many people have to know some facet of the daemonic, the chaotic, and the Warp-otic. Okay, that last one isn't a word, but you get my point.

Also, when you read the fluff it seems that 90% of all IG battles are against rebellions, and 90% of all rebellions in 40K are sponsored by Chaos, which means 90% of the IG would get killed after every single battle. Common sense makes that impossible.

Since both answers are technically correct, the correct answer is whichever you like the most. Nobody can prove you wrong because both sides can point to evidence that supports them.

squidhills wrote:The truth is that the IoM purges IG regiments and civillians when certain authors write the fluff, and it ignores the whole "Chaos is the deepest and darkest of grimdark secrets" when other, more rational authors write the fluff.

Basically, what Andy Hoare said:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

Although I would have to point out that a termination of troops that came into contact with a daemonic incursion is sensible simply to avoid the threat of corruption. This has been an element in 40k for ages. Some authors don't care at all about it, whereas others go to the extreme to say that the very knowledge of Chaos is grounds for execution. Personally, I prefer the middle ground, as that shouldn't happen too often.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think it is standard operating procedure to purge Guardsmen after contact with daemons but more often than not Inquisitors don't enforce this rule. Maybe they find it impractical or they're old softies and can't bring themselves to do it.

Actually, it's probably that they think the surviving guardsmen whose sanity isn't shattered are useful.

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

It seems fitting that GK purge the guard after a conflict with chaos, they dont seem like the type to take chances.