Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I was reading some backstory on the Ordo Malleus. Lexicanicum makes it clear that non-astartes forces that participate in fighting off a Chaos incursion are liquidated.

In the Grey Knights codex, Draigos entry indicates he held off a giant force so the Cadian 912th could fall back.

Granted, these things are necessarily incompatible; he certainly could have engaged in superhuman heroics to save cannon fodder simply because there were other cannons they were needed to fodder for later previous to being shot in the head and being tossed in a dumpster honored by the imperium for their selfless sacrifices. But I'm wondering from other, non-codex fluff (of which I have read none) how common/accurate this purging in?

Granted, looking for consistency from a codex which indicates on one page, how incredible it was for Draigo to survive in the warp; while on another indicating all of Titan was sent to the warp for an unknown time with 8 brothers and some recruits and came back with 1k battle brothers, is possibly a fruitless endeavor.

Grey Knights ( The Ordo Malleius in general ) purge Guard, PDF and civilian population after every their campaign because Chaos Gods and their true power are BIG SECRET that must be keep out of public at any cost. And Grey Knight are secret to, so even seeing one in person meaning you will be dead soon enough.

Space Marines are not purged because they are to valuable ( they are battle brothers after all ), and they just erase their memories. Of course, if they rebel to this decision they are killed on spot ( secret is still a secret ).

Deathwatch and Hereticus do entirely different things, and may in some occasion initiate purge if they must ( like alien or Chaos infection or infiltration ).

Ouze wrote:So, I was reading some backstory on the Ordo Malleus. Lexicanicum makes it clear that non-astartes forces that participate in fighting off a Chaos incursion are liquidated.

In the Grey Knights codex, Draigos entry indicates he held off a giant force so the Cadian 912th could fall back.

Granted, these things are necessarily incompatible; he certainly could have engaged in superhuman heroics to save cannon fodder simply because there were other cannons they were needed to fodder for later previous to being shot in the head and being tossed in a dumpster honored by the imperium for their selfless sacrifices. But I'm wondering from other, non-codex fluff (of which I have read none) how common/accurate this purging in?

Maybe not. Perhaps they still had a use for the Cadians. Just because they're going to dumpster them anyway doesn't mean that they did it five minutes after getting back home safe. They might have participated in a few other battles of that particular campaign before being binned.

Also, they're Cadians, the Ultras of the IG. I'm sure if there was going to be 'special provisions' made, it would be with them. I'm guessing it's one of those things where there is a lot of unspoken grey area in between all of the hyperbole that is the fluff.

Granted, looking for consistency from a codex which indicates on one page, how incredible it was for Draigo to survive in the warp; while on another indicating all of Titan was sent to the warp for an unknown time with 8 brothers and some recruits and came back with 1k battle brothers, is possibly a fruitless endeavor.

I think that the Sigilite used his plot magics to Geller field Titan so that it would be safe. Draigo is just skipping through pestilent gardens and past arcane horrors beyond space and time like it's the Sunday walk through the park.

It's the difference between watching hungry lions in a cage, and being WITH hungry lions in a cage. That is kind of incredible.

Oh I forgot about Cadians... They don't purge them because they know all there is to know about Chaos ( they are after all living 5 meters from the Eye of Terror ). And it seems that they have some secret deal with GK, since I never heard about their Regiment being purged. And again, I never heard about any Cadian talking about horrors from the Warp.

Brother Coa wrote:Oh I forgot about Cadians... They don't purge them because they know all there is to know about Chaos ( they are after all living 5 meters from the Eye of Terror ). And it seems that they have some secret deal with GK, since I never heard about their Regiment being purged. And again, I never heard about any Cadian talking about horrors from the Warp.

And why do you thik that is?

It depends on how important the regiment of guard is, like if the Lord Castellan suddenly is missing a lot of people are going to be wondering where did he go? Generally though it will vary from regiment to regiment, while I'm not entirely sure it would make the most sense to me that if a regiment performs valiantly in the field with the Grey Knights, any who show signs of chaos are obviously killed on the spot, while those who show no signs of corruption are sent off to continous warfare until the whole regiment is wiped out, and thus the knowledge of the GK erased as well. Feel free to poke holes in my theory

Zalmout wrote:It depends on how important the regiment of guard is, like if the Lord Castellan suddenly is missing a lot of people are going to be wondering where did he go? Generally though it will vary from regiment to regiment, while I'm not entirely sure it would make the most sense to me that if a regiment performs valiantly in the field with the Grey Knights, any who show signs of chaos are obviously killed on the spot, while those who show no signs of corruption are sent off to continous warfare until the whole regiment is wiped out, and thus the knowledge of the GK erased as well. Feel free to poke holes in my theory

I think it depends on the person in the field.
Regiments have been wiped out merely for having fought daemons and won.

They get purginated after fights against Chaos Daemons. The same guys that helped defeat Angron and his 50,000 World Eaters on Armageddon were hauled off to slave labor camps or mind wiped into servitors. The Space Wolves have never forgiven the Ordo Malleus/Administratum for it.

Yes the inquisiton does purge imperial forces who worked with them.

And really, dont worry about the scary, scary lore Matt Ward whips up

purplefood wrote:
And why do you thik that is?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377384.page

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
And why do you thik that is?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377384.page

Actually i was kinda going more for the "If they did it they wouldn't aexactly go around telling everyone would they?" angle...

Depends on the situation and if the Inquisition thinsk any of them will be more useful not purged.

since when do Astartes not know about chaos?, and what about when theres a black crusade, you think they would really whipe out every IG regiment that is fighting them. I was under the assumption that the Imperiums military foeces were all aware of the existance of chaos and it was just the civillian population who was forbidden from knowing. After all when they have to fight chaos its bet that they know their enemy.

Master of Arms wrote:since when do Astartes not know about chaos?, and what about when theres a black crusade, you think they would really whipe out every IG regiment that is fighting them. I was under the assumption that the Imperiums military foeces were all aware of the existance of chaos and it was just the civillian population who was forbidden from knowing. After all when they have to fight chaos its bet that they know their enemy.

No one said they didn't know. They're unaware of its true scale and power, like most other civilians and Imperial Guard. The ones that do are the Grey Knights and certain members of the Inquisition, as well as several Chapter Masters and likely the highest ranking members of most factions and the Guard.
Why are they purged? For multiple reasons. An encounter with a Daemon is a harrowing experience, it leaves many vulnerable to corruption in the future, hence why large numbers are purged, to stop large numbers of people from being used as tools. They are also purged to keep the extent of Chaos hidden from the masses. Thin about it, how many people in a realm where people have little prospects bar signing up for the military or working your entire life in a munitions factory, would throw their lot in with a unimaginably powerful force who with they have the chance of being rewarded? I'd guess entire planets or systems would rebel, the Imperium would break under the strain. Combining the first two points is a third; to stop the spread of corruption and rebellion. Those Imperial Guard that survived such an mind numbing encounter will be shipped off to dozens of other planets to possibly spread corruption.
Space Marines are not exempt from this. Despite being the most loyal servants of the Emperor, they're not immune to the draw of Chaos, plenty of evidence for this of course. As I've said, select Chapters are allowed to know the existence of the Grey Knights, like the Silver Skulls, probably not their full purpose though, and Dante of the Blood Angels knew whilst his Astartes were mind-wiped. I would postulate that higher ranking Imperial Guard commanders who can't easily be replaced or who show great worth of competency would be spared execution and would be subjected to the same process as the Space Marines. Unfortunately most Imperial Guard units are also killed, but perhaps only after their worth has run out, then they might be given a much more painful process which is likely to kill them.

The citizens and militia of Armageddon were sterlized and placed in massive work camps until they were dead.

The Imperium believed it better to be fully rid of the taint of chaos.

Logan Grimnar was might peeved by that decision.

The Imperiums purgings keeps its citizens ignorant of the very real threat of Chaos. This ignorance makes it easier for corruption to spread.

Full knowledge is more dangerous.

Yeah, that would be quite bad. Because if True Chaos power was to ever be known among the Imperium's population...

Let us just say that there are many, many stupid people out there. And many of them would start worshiping Chaos Gods. And that would be give strength to Chaos gods and open a gateway to Daemons into our dimension. Let us just say that war that would be fought in that moment would make Necron - Old Ones war look like little child...

Cadia is constantly fighting Chaos, with more and more troops send there for replacement. All these troops are not killed by the Imperium, neither is the planet's population killed.

During the Horus Heresy, Holy Terra was attacked. The population wasn't culled either. So your claim is proven wrong in general. of course there might be single cases where Chaos corruption is fought with killing suspicious people, and the inquisition takes its time to find Chaos cultists. And Chaos corruption is not that contageous as a tyranid infestation.

Mat Ward claims that Grey Knights kill everyone helping them fight Chaos, not because of Chaos corruption but to keep the existence of grey Knights a secret. But that doesn't make sense either. Will take GW some time to clean up Mat's mess, as it took GW some time to clean up Goto's mess.

I should have added that things get complicated when Mat Ward appears. As Kroothawk has already detailed, there are instances of Daemonic incursions where procedure isn't followed, these usually pre-date the new Grey Knight Codex. Contradictions abound in that book, this is one of many.

Generally speaking, the Inquisition does not purge Imperial forces after a battle or war is concluded, no. The Inquisition fights more than just Chaos, after all.

This wasn't just matt ward's fluff. The culling of populations exposed to chaos was in WH40K:RT. The whys/wherefores obviously were more murky in 1st edition, but the idea that non marine's were liquidated fit into the whole 'soviet' mentality of the guard as originally designed.

warpgrenade wrote:This wasn't just matt ward's fluff. The culling of populations exposed to chaos was in WH40K:RT. The whys/wherefores obviously were more murky in 1st edition, but the idea that non marine's were liquidated fit into the whole 'soviet' mentality of the guard as originally designed.

No, it isn't, but the whole I idea is made more complicated due to his tinkering.

I would have to say no.

Mostly because there's a Eisenhorn short story dealing with Retired Guardsmen from a Chaos Campaign


The story was simply too cool not to be cannon.

iproxtaco wrote:

Master of Arms wrote:since when do Astartes not know about chaos?, and what about when theres a black crusade, you think they would really whipe out every IG regiment that is fighting them. I was under the assumption that the Imperiums military foeces were all aware of the existance of chaos and it was just the civillian population who was forbidden from knowing. After all when they have to fight chaos its bet that they know their enemy.

No one said they didn't know. They're unaware of its true scale and power, like most other civilians and Imperial Guard. The ones that do are the Grey Knights and certain members of the Inquisition, as well as several Chapter Masters and likely the highest ranking members of most factions and the Guard.
Why are they purged? For multiple reasons. An encounter with a Daemon is a harrowing experience, it leaves many vulnerable to corruption in the future, hence why large numbers are purged, to stop large numbers of people from being used as tools. They are also purged to keep the extent of Chaos hidden from the masses. Thin about it, how many people in a realm where people have little prospects bar signing up for the military or working your entire life in a munitions factory, would throw their lot in with a unimaginably powerful force who with they have the chance of being rewarded? I'd guess entire planets or systems would rebel, the Imperium would break under the strain. Combining the first two points is a third; to stop the spread of corruption and rebellion. Those Imperial Guard that survived such an mind numbing encounter will be shipped off to dozens of other planets to possibly spread corruption.
Space Marines are not exempt from this. Despite being the most loyal servants of the Emperor, they're not immune to the draw of Chaos, plenty of evidence for this of course. As I've said, select Chapters are allowed to know the existence of the Grey Knights, like the Silver Skulls, probably not their full purpose though, and Dante of the Blood Angels knew whilst his Astartes were mind-wiped. I would postulate that higher ranking Imperial Guard commanders who can't easily be replaced or who show great worth of competency would be spared execution and would be subjected to the same process as the Space Marines. Unfortunately most Imperial Guard units are also killed, but perhaps only after their worth has run out, then they might be given a much more painful process which is likely to kill them.

What about for example in the Ciaphas cain novels, he has came in to contact with, and fought two deamons. i suppose IG regiments just arent told about about their true power, and they are usually fighting chaos worshipers, not actual deamons, if they fight chaos at all.

Almost all that fight alongside the GK are killed, the Inquisition usually lets them live, judging by Gaunt's Ghosts who have fought with Inquisitors about five times.

The Draigo fluff is most likely just to promote the selfless uberhero image that Ward likes.

What about in Dawn of War where Imperial Guard forces fought daemons and won and were spared

What about in Dawn of War 2 where the Imperial Guard fought the daemon prince close up; no one was mind wiped nor killed

PresidentOfAsia wrote:What about in Dawn of War where Imperial Guard forces fought daemons and won and were spared

They were spared because there was no-one left standing to arrest them.
If the Marines win, their ending would mention the Space Marines shipping the surviving Guardsmen off to Segmentum Command - where the vast majority of them died during "Inquisitorial debriefing".
If the Sisters win, their ending would mention the "tragic necessity of a field Inquisition" where every Guardsman and Space Marine who survived was purged due to the likelihood of having been corrupted by Chaos (i.e. the same as above, just saving the soldiers the trip to HQ).

On Stubb's victory, I vaguely recall something about an "investigation" being triggered with orders to detain him due to resisting Ecclesiarchal and Inquisitorial orders, but said investigation got lost in red tape and wouldn't actually reach Kaurava for a century or so, meaning Stubbs just didn't have to bother - I don't remember at all where I read or heard this, though, so don't quote me on that.

Addendum: Also keep in mind that licensed products such as computer games and novels etc are not written by the studio and their contents are subject to interpretation by the various writers, which may occasionally deviate from GW material.

Master of Arms wrote:What about for example in the Ciaphas cain novels, he has came in to contact with, and fought two deamons. i suppose IG regiments just arent told about about their true power, and they are usually fighting chaos worshipers, not actual deamons, if they fight chaos at all.

I think thats more because he is more useful to amberley alive than dead, Plus she keeps an eye on him during their missions so if she suspected that his exposure to chaos entitys corrupted his mindset she would shot him on the spot.

Also, the Cain novels deviate from what is established in GW studio material on more than one occasion.

The existence of such IG regiments as the Volscani Cataphracts means this policy, while it may exist, isn't always enacted. Though I suppose one could also make the argument that perhaps these were ones that had fought Chaos followers and not actual daemons.

For those that don't know, the Volscani Cataphracts were a decorated regiment of IG that had fought Chaos previously. They revealed their defection during a troop review on Cadia and precipitated the Battle of Tyrok Fields at the beginning of the 13th Black Crusade, that resulted in the killing of the Lord Castellan of Cadia (replaced by Creed).