Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi Augustus,

Didn't you think that taking 11 mortars vs Dark Eldar was a little bitty, itsy bitsy teeny weeny (yellow polka dot bikini) bit filthy?

All it really shows is that indirect fire rocks vs Dark Eldar...

Maybe you can arrange a future match up with tourney armies (Although Xtapl was slightly (About 1/10 as) naughty with the power weapons in place of agonisers...)

The photo of Xtapl's deployment reminded me of why I stopped playing DE.  First turn mattered far too much.  2 basilisk shots and that's basically 1000 points of vehicles smashed and the game lost...

All that said, thanks for taking the time to photograph and write up the batrep.

As to whether I think DE are competitive in 4th ed?  I've only played a newbie, once, (Who my Nids massacred by 2000 points), so I cannot really say.

I myself am far more scared of Tau.  Just as manouverable, with tougher units.  And they're geting a new codex, so probably even filthier soon.

 

Gazzor

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Augustus,

Didn't you think that taking 11 mortars vs Dark Eldar was a little bitty, itsy bitsy teeny weeny (yellow polka dot bikini) bit filthy?

All it really shows is that indirect fire rocks vs Dark Eldar...

Maybe you can arrange a future match up with tourney armies (Although Xtapl was slightly (About 1/10 as) naughty with the power weapons in place of agonisers...)

The photo of Xtapl's deployment reminded me of why I stopped playing DE.  First turn mattered far too much.  2 basilisk shots and that's basically 1000 points of vehicles smashed and the game lost...

All that said, thanks for taking the time to photograph and write up the batrep.

As to whether I think DE are competitive in 4th ed?  I've only played a newbie, once, (Who my Nids massacred by 2000 points), so I cannot really say.

I myself am far more scared of Tau.  Just as manouverable, with tougher units.  And they're geting a new codex, so probably even filthier soon.

 

Gazzor

Do you mean 'you' are scared of Tau?  Or that your 'nid army is scared of Tau?

 

 ;confused:

I don't think that DE would be scared of Tau 'cuz if they engage in CC, they will decimate them.

 

sorry; very tired.  I'm done now.

Awesome freak'n battle report!!!

Good report. I think the 11 mortars was a bit over the top, but the DE still managed to bloody the nose of the IG severely. I would like to see a best of 3 or 5. I think that the IG army isn't really that tough even with mortars. My Alaitoc army would give it trouble. I also believe that DE are still nasty. Capt K

 

GazzorWrites:

Hi Augustus,

Didn't you think that taking 11 mortars vs Dark Eldar was a little bitty, itsy bitsy teeny weeny (yellow polka dot bikini) bit filthy?

All it really shows is that indirect fire rocks vs Dark Eldar...

Do I think taking 11 mortars vs. DE was filthy. By Filthy you mean cheating? Let me be clear, not at all, not even "a little bitty, itsy bitsy teeny weeny (yellow polka dot bikini) bit"

Does it prove that indirect fire works against DE? Sure it does.  I realize the DE have a large amount of staunch supporters, but news flash, the DE are vulnerable to indirect fire, they're also vulnerable to direct fire, and hand to hand, and morale, and psychic powers and everything else too.  Which I have proposed since the beginging.  It's why they are genrally not a very competative army overall.  I think the only point of any competativeness that DE can make; and that most of their supporters argue, is that they can take a vanilla marine army in the metagame and that marine armies are common.

In the batrep, the mortars killed about 6 DE, damaged a raider and missed all game, they cost 300+ points and they were almost decimated at game end, they never even caused a pin test to fail. They did not make their points back.  Is that your definition of filthy? I can't imagine what kind of tournaments you must play or what a tyrant you might be on soft scores?  Does winning with my thematic army automatically make me a bad guy?

Yeah, I don't know about best of five. I am getting out of the DE game soon, and I don't think I'll have this army long enough to do a best of five.

Let me state that I am not selling off my DE because they are somehow deficient. On the contrary, I've done just about everything that can be done with one army over the last four years. Two GT placings, four RTT overalls, six best armies, and over one hundred victories. Hell, my DE army is now what Games Workshop uses to *sell* DE armies.  (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/darkeldar/painting/WD309_ChrisBell/WD309_ChrisBell.htm)

So I think it's about time I moved on to greener pastures. Not sure what yet. But I bet I can get a bucketload of dollars for the army, so I'll have a tidy sum of cash to play with.

At any rate, we've got a rematch promised, so I will honor that rematch, but that'll probably be it for the "DE experiment." Although I said I'd play Phryxis, too, if he comes around before the army ships out for someone else to try.

**********

Back to the current argument, I think Augustus is understating the impact of the mortars just a little. He's forgetting the conjunction of the mortars *and* the two Basilisks, which accounted for way more than just a handful of models. While I wouldn't go so far as to call his army composition "filthy," or "cheating," I think it was definitely tooled up specifically for my army, and doesn't go one inch toward proving DE are "uncompetitive" in any way. The agreement was, from the very beginning, to show that DE are more than capable of winning regularly in a tournament environment. I maintain Augustus did not bring a tournament army to our initial meeting, and so, while the game was fun, it really doesn't prove anything.

Augustus was a great opponent and a nice guy. Far from "filthy."

The truth is, nothing is going to change Augustus's mind about DE. That doesn't decrease my enjoyment (or tournament winning percentage) one iota.  

Awesome freak'n battle report!!!

Thank you very much Mr. Wakelin, this means a lot coming from, you, I appreciate your compliment!

I want to thank you for all your work, so that I can do things like this.  It was work, but it was fun, and I'm sure it is dwarfed by all the things you have to do to maintain this carnival!

Carpe Diem

Hi Augustus.  I don't mean cheaty by filthy, I just mean, a wee bit sly.  Like somebody who takes 14 assault cannons, or 8 monstrous creatures in 1500 points... 

It has also detracted from your win as people are focusing on a unit that doesn't see general tourney play, but is good vs DE.

In the end, it's only one game, and not statistically representative of anything, just that you beat Xtapl on that mission on that day on that table.

But, as I said, if you had gone first, that would have been 1k points of dead DE on turn 1 due to the 2 clumps deployment.

I've played DE myself.  In 3rd ed it was a 14 DL, 14 Disintegrator 12 skimmer army that mulched marines to death.  That's all it was designed to do.  As 90% of games were against BA, BT, SW or Vanilla SMs, it was a great meta game gambit.

I've seen 2 Dark Eldar armies at the 2 tournies I've been to in 4th ed, so I guess they're not so popular...  A DE army did well at the recent UK GT heat 2 apparently.  And this is a proper tourney with none of that "composition" rubbish.

I think indirect is less of a factor nowadays (At least locally) so a better 2nd game may be with SMs with no indirect fire.

Just a suggestion.

Again, a nice batrep.

 

Gazzor

 

Out of curiosity...You were playing with the GT time limit, but I'm sure alot of time was taken up by taking notes, pictures, etc.  Did you count that against the time limit, or did you give yourselves extra time for that?

Skyth, on time issues and notes etc.

I took all the notes and the pictures and Xtapl tracked the time.  I tried my best to take pics and especially notes during his turns (I have some more pics that arent up yet).  So I'm sure some of our time was wasted in those effeorts, I think it wasnt much.  But did we stop and talk etc. and count that time.  No.

Honestly Xtapl can answer that question better than I can as he tracked the time. Hopefully he will.

I am surprised that you don't use Incubi with the Drachon and mount them on a raider.  I find this to be my most powerful tool in the DE army.  All the power weapons just cut through marines.  I have thought about the Jet Bike path, but Jetbikes just don't have the killing power that Incubi do, and they can get gunned down very easily.  They are great against weaker troops though.  The bikes always seemed overpriced, though they are good at grabbing table quarters in the last turn.   

My favorite opponent for my DE are Marines.  Nothing like a cheap DE warrior with a Dark Lance popping an expensive land raider, tank or Terminator, and watching my assault troops cut through space marines. 

Good to see other players out there with the DE.  Good battle report. 

 

I can't help but feel the advance knowledge of the opponent was the deciding factor on the selection of the imperial army list. That is one of the nastier lists a DE army could face and an all arounder list.  Chris, how typical was this DE list for you? That said, I am a bit curious as to what the actual DE list was. for instance, the lack of splinter cannons on the warrior squads, omision or reality? blasters on jetbikes (in this case, maybe not so needed, but an interesting ommsion)?

I do agree on the use of duel dracons in this role, for a list like this, i would have probably done the same. I might have also considered syabrites on the jetbike squads since I typically have found the extra punch is needed with the jetbikes. I don't like the use of wyches here, this is an excellent example of the problem with 4th edition screening, it will be a rare game you'll get them into combat has been my take on it. this is the exact reason why the hq raider with incubi is no longer a prime choice.

Fundamently, the squad selections were pretty sound (except perhaps the wyches IMO) I think. The details though are where it gets interesting. Anyway, well done on a tough matchup.

Both army's look very well done on the field, BTW.

Stoppage time was definitely factored in. The game actually lasted almost three hours. Whenever the game was stopped (for notes, phone calls, etc.), the time was given back to the game. However, time was not put back in for things that would normally happen at a tournament, like rules discussions, model oglers, and such.

jbchandl: Words cannot express how much I think Incubi are, as the kids say, "the suck." Hm. Double tapping open topped transports full of overpriced models that will be entagled far away from where I need them and then have to foot slog with no ranged weaponry to speak of and never see combat? Yes, please...

The list I ran was very typical of my tournamet army, with the minor concession that I took power weapons instead of agonizers, and used the extra points to get an Animus Vitae. Other than that, I pretty much run this army exactly as presented in every tournament.

The actual list was:

Dracon (HQ)
Power Weapon, Combat Drugs, Reaver Jetbike, Tormentor Helm, Plasma Grenades, Animus Vitae

Dracon (HQ)
Power Weapon, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, Reaver Jetbike, Tormentor Helm, Plasma Grenades

9 Wyches (Elites)
Splinter P. & CCW (x9); Wych Weapons
Succubus - Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Wych Weapons; Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Dark Lance

9 Raider Squad (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x7); Splinter Cannon (x1); Blaster (x1)
Sybarite w/ Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Disintegrator

9 Raider Squad (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x7); Splinter Cannon (x1); Blaster (x1)
Sybarite w/ Power Weapon (x1); Splinter Pistol (x1); Plasma Grenades
Raider w/ Disintegrator

10 Warriors (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

10 Warriors (Troops)
Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

5 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x3); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

4 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x2); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

4 Reaver Jetbikes (Fast Attack)
Splinter Pistol; Splinter Rifle (x2); Blaster (x2)
Succubus w/ Power Weapon (x1); Tormentor Helm

Ravager (Heavy Support)
Disintegrator (x3)

Ravager (Heavy Support)
Disintegrator (x3)

Models in Army: 73

Total Army Cost: 1848

ok, list makes more sense now.

Xtapl:

First, again, thanks for the match. Thanks for posting the list. Thanks for being that shining example of what a 40K player should be like. Not only do you play the game very well, but also you do it the right way. People can walk away from a game with you and even though they lost, they had a good game, one that will be remembered. Not a lot of people can say they had a good game that they really enjoyed, and lost, but against you I think they would have a good chance at that "kind" of a game.

wolf13:

I hope you understand that even though the wyches may not have been the best unit selection for this match, Xtapl did exactly what he said he would do, he brought his normal list. Against the MEq lists out there the wyches would have made much more of an impact. The volume of bikes Xtapl brings to the table is a threat nobody can ignore, and while his opponents are focused on that threat, the wyches get in close. Keeping the wyches on the raider may seem like a bad idea, but think about it for a second. If the ordnance, which is what took them out, was to scatter just 3?, then the center of the template is not on the raider, so the S is cut in half. With the wych 6+ Sv against shooting attacks, foot slogging them across the field, even against the ?flashlights? is asking to die. Did Xtapl take a chance with putting them in the raider? Yea, he did, but then playing DE is all about taking chances, if DE players wanted safety, they would be playing MEqs.


Nevermore

Although I said I'd play Phryxis, too, if he comes around before the army ships out for someone else to try.

Nooo! Don't sell your army! Why do people do that? I bet it takes me about 150 hours of solid work to get an army done, probably more. When I did independant contracting work, the least I'd take an hour was $50. Unless somebody is willing to give you $7500 for your army, why sell it? That's just crazy to me. It's like giving away a child for $200, or whatever. Nuts.

Anyway, I do want to play you if we can arrange it. I think it'd be funny to use the Ultramauleen 1850 point list, but I don't do that well with it, so I might bring my own 1850 points of Marines or Necrons. We should try to arrange a day... I've been meaning to get down to Augustus' club, but I've had other stuff going on...

So wierd, people have good luck with wyches. I have had absolutely no luck with wyches. From a theoretical basis, as far as I can tell, they are really bad against MEQ- sure, they hit them a lot, but how many MEQ are going to fall down? Any? On the other hand, MEQ will kill lots of wyches in HtH.
But, I suppose there are many ways to play out there. still, it seems that there is nothing wyches can do that a different choice could do better. Mandrakes, for instance.
I find it funny that wyches always seem to work best against tanks (haywire grenades) than they do againts troops...

Erm...Marines are usually hitting wyches at at least a 4+, and often a 5+, if drugs rolls are nice. Then, the wyches have a 4+ invulnerable save. Meanwhile, wyches are hitting on threes, and have 40 billion attacks. The succubus alone is usually good for three marine kills on the charge.

I'll take wyches over your standard tac marine any day.

Phryxis: Man, sometimes people just get burned out. I know I am. DE are fantastic, but I'd like to move on to other things, and new models don't grow on trees.

But I promise not to sell until we get to play. We don't have to go all the way down to Valhalla. There's a joint in Longmont we could play at, or, I dunno...Is Digital Dungeon still open in Greeley?

DE are fantastic, but I'd like to move on to other things, and new models don't grow on trees.

And already painted models do? Seriously, dollar bills are all pretty much the same. You can always go get more. There's only one "Chris Bell Dark Eldar Army." Hell, you've got two "Chris Bell kidneys", but only one Dark Eldar army...

We don't have to go all the way down to Valhalla. There's a joint in Longmont we could play at, or, I dunno...Is Digital Dungeon still open in Greeley?

It's not the distance so much as the other crap I have to do. I'm going to have four wisdom teeth hacked and sawed out of my head on Thursday, and even if I wasn't a total puss (which I am), even a super toughguy would probably have a hard time focusing on 40K the day after surjury on hed.

And, yes, Digital Dungeon is still open. Or, at least, they were about three months ago. Their selection is bizzare. It's like they haven't sold anything since Gorka Morka came out.

Antonin wrote:

So wierd, people have good luck with wyches. I have had absolutely no luck with wyches. From a theoretical basis, as far as I can tell, they are really bad against MEQ- sure, they hit them a lot, but how many MEQ are going to fall down? Any? On the other hand, MEQ will kill lots of wyches in HtH.
But, I suppose there are many ways to play out there. still, it seems that there is nothing wyches can do that a different choice could do better. Mandrakes, for instance.
I find it funny that wyches always seem to work best against tanks (haywire grenades) than they do againts troops...



Wyches can kill MEqs just fine. Here is a little math to help you understand what Xtapl was saying.

Given 10 wyches v 10 SMs, wyches w/o using drugs, or shooting before assaulting:

9 wyches 2 blaster 7 splinter pistols
1 wych succubus with splinter pistol and agoniser

9 SMs 2 (pick your favorites) 7 with bolters
1 Vet with powerfist

We will assume that all 10 wyches get into h2h for this example.

27 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 5s against the 3+ MEq save
27/1 * 2/3 * 1/3 *1/3 = 2 dead marines
4/1 * 2/3 * ½ = 1.333 dead mairines

Let?s assume that 3 guys died and 7 are alive to avenge them.

6 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 3s against the wyches 4+ inv save
6/1 * ½ * 2/3 * ½ = 1 dead wych
2/1 * ½ * 5/6 * ½ = .42 dead wych

Giving SMs 1.42 kills and the Wyches 3.3 kills

If the wyches get re-roll (my personal favorite) it looks more like this:

27 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 5s against the 3+ MEq save
27/1 * 8/9 * 1/3 *1/3 = 2.67 dead marines
4/1 * 8/9 * ½ = 1.78 dead mairines
killing 4.45 marines

If the wyches somehow get to shoot before assault.
8/1 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = .59 dead marines
2/1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1.11 dead marines

In short, in the worst case senerio, 5-6 marines dead before they even get to swing at a wych, best case they loose the assault and get to try next round.

NeverMore

The numbers are pretty clear, Wyches are going to beat up on SMs in CC. The other thing to remember is they do the same job against Assault Marines, thanks to Wych Weapons. No +1A, so they fight like normal Tac Marines.

Of course, get shooting on them, and they'll give up points faster than most any other unit out there. T3 with a 6+ save, and they're gonna be around 15 points... Rough. But that's the DE.

Also remember that the wyches are pretty likely to wipe out most of the kill zone in the charge too, hence reducing the amount of marines who can strike back. This assumes that the marines have spread out, but who wouldn't versus 8-9 disintegrators?

Very true - given equal numbers of wyches and SM, your math does look correct. I stand corrected. I must have been having bad luck, I will have to try them some more.
Don't forget, though, that you have to take the raider, so an equal-pointed squad would have at least three more SM. So, those kills in the first round are the "free" marines - I know it's not that simple, of course.
I should point out too that wyches versus necrons are a very bad matchup (equal points is 10 wyches w/ succubus v. 15 necrons). Maybe 1.5 dead necrons, and then the shooting phase will mean no more wyches.
This may be a moot point, though - it's applicable for most DE units against necrons.

Necrons tend to be a worse matchup overall than any other MEq. It's the WBB. They die like Marines, but Disintigrators are only S7, so they can still stand back up.

It can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than fighting normal Marines or Chaos Marines...

   Yea, that is why I hate necrons, well ok that and the monolith which I need a 1/54 chance to destroy with a single DL shot.  With them you really have to hit them with 2-1 odds.  Winning the assault is not the hard part, making them break is the trick.  The 2-1 odds brings their Ld10 down a bit after the assault giving you a better chance.  If they break, you can run them down, unlike ummmmmm just about every other army out there.

   Xtapl, what do you think about the new BT AV14 crusader that can ignore the lance special ability?

NeverMore

The words "total bullsht" come to mind...

Like Eldar aren't screwed enough right now?

Succinctly stated Xtapl, I agree with your assessment completely!

Furthermore, writing rules, then writing exceptions to them, then writing exceptions to the exceptions, is a disturbing pattern. What's next?

Exceptions to the exceptions to the rules' exceptions? How many layers do we need? I thought the universal special rules in the V4 book were supposed to put an end to that practice.  It's a shame to see GW editing teams walking on themselves like that.

It is referred to as the 'codex creep'; Meaning that the latest is the greatest and trumps the last few codices.

Antonin: Wyches might be the best close combat unit in the game for the points.  The drugs +  succubus w/ agonizer mounted on a raider can get pretty far from a WWP or table edge.  12" move + 2" disembark + 1-6" FOF roll and a 6" assault move in one turn, coming out of a WWP, they might be able to get all the way into opponent's deployment zone.  Please, try them again!