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Jidmah wrote:You're right, if the SM player knows what he's doing, he will only shoot one weapon each turn. In that case, ignore the thing, it won't make its points back. If he makes the error of shooting two weapons and allows himself to be hit on 4+, punish him for that error.

First, making points-back is an increasingly obsolete aspect of 40k. Also, tank-shock; it's not like one can't run a pair of Land Raiders, and use one to push your Boys into ideal flamerbait formation before sending their cargo (and some Tacs perhaps) to finish you off. It's not like one can't run a pair of Land Raiders and use them to cordon off the rest of your army from assisting whatever the Marine player wants to kill. Those Land Raiders aren't going it alone after all. They will be bringing some units coming from behind, ones that you'd normally be able to Loota but now you can't because you don't have the proper fire angles (and before you say "neither does he", it's very possible to use Land Raiders to create your own firing corridors and restrict LOS to your static elements).

As Notabot said, Deffrollas and MANZ are your most reliable sources of Raiderbusting. Massing the normal mix of light armor be it Trukk or Buggy-based also gives you aggressive moveblocking capability and sometimes that sacrifice is one you must make.

You still can't kill more than ~8 boyz with a flamer template. Why is everyone acting as if 20 boyz simply vanish into thin air when a redeemer hits them? Do you just pick up your army when the enemy fires a flamer?

"Most effective" is well and good, but usually you are not fielding MANz , and there are games where the deff rolla doesn't get to the land raider or simply is somewhere else - or fails to do something to the landraider, which isn't that impossible, resulting in the highly dangerous stuff inside the landraider smashing the bw next turn.

I really have the feeling many people disconnect from what is actually happening on the tabletop when discussing tactics. Knowing that boyz have a 20% chance to cause serious damage to a combat speed landraider is a good thing. If you have things like a rolla, tank bustas, a warboss or nobz squad at hand, of course you don't use a comparedly small chance to attack the landraider. But before you start shooting rokkits at it(as many have suggested), the hidden klaw is your best shot. There are games where you will lose four battlewagons on turn two, a game involving dice does that.

You will run into situation where you won't be able to get the perfect counter to their target. Blocking doesn't work one way only, for example. In that case throwing a boyz squad at a LR to take it out of the equation is a great option, and not any less of a sacrifice than buggies, which can much easier be destroyed by the landraider in a single round of shooting than a unit of boyz.

If I'm going to commit a unit to destruction or glory, I want a bit better odds than 20 percent. Especially when that 20 percent chance only happens at combat speed, which we agree isn't going to happen with an opponent who knows what he is doing. And don't say that you can on the fly decide to send them in if your opponent makes that error, ork boyz are slow and cumbersome, and have a hard time cornering a vehicle, especially since they can just tank shock out of whatever trap you make for them. Oh, you are using battle wagon boyz? (I assume this because you are talking 20 boyz) Ok... Those are meant to be your offensive scoring unit, not a tank hunting kill unit like nobs/MANz are. Then the argument that a flamer isn't the end of the world goes away. 20 boyz minus the 6-8 you lose with no saves wounding on 2s... then some random bolter/dakka pred pushes you below 11 models, and then you are no longer fearless, and no longer a real threat to infantry in CC. Ork boyz with hidden fists are a last ditch effort if you need to apply them to an AV vehicle. Not something to build a strategy around. If you need to take out LRs, maybe it would be better to actually take the units that are good against them, despite with the internet wisdom says (which says MANz missiles are bad, which isn't completely untrue, but they fill a role very well).

Jidmah wrote:You still can't kill more than ~8 boyz with a flamer template. Why is everyone acting as if 20 boyz simply vanish into thin air when a redeemer hits them? Do you just pick up your army when the enemy fires a flamer?

Once saw 14 killed by a BA Flamerback in a single go. It wasn't pretty. Additionally, there are the units supporting the Raiders (a fairly common troop setup for vanilla lists is "two full-strength tacsquads in Rhinos, with Multimelta, Flamer, and Combiflamer; Vulkan is optional). One way or another, Raiders allow one to delay you from bringing your full force to bear, should you lack the mobility to interdict their paths.

Jidmah wrote:"Most effective" is well and good, but usually you are not fielding MANz , and there are games where the deff rolla doesn't get to the land raider or simply is somewhere else - or fails to do something to the landraider, which isn't that impossible, resulting in the highly dangerous stuff inside the landraider smashing the bw next turn.

I frequently run a small squad of MANz, if only so I have another semi-dedicated AT bomb and get another Battlewagon out of the deal.

Jidmah wrote:
You will run into situation where you won't be able to get the perfect counter to their target. Blocking doesn't work one way only, for example. In that case throwing a boyz squad at a LR to take it out of the equation is a great option, and not any less of a sacrifice than buggies, which can much easier be destroyed by the landraider in a single round of shooting than a unit of boyz.

I am sacrificing at least 180 points as opposed to 70, and am sacrificing a core Troop unit as opposed to a Fast Attack? False analogy. It's a good thing the shooting phase comes after the movement phase, and vehicles can't just drive over other vehicles...throwing a Boy unit is a *terrible* option.

Making your points back is not an issue. But if 500 points is spent on something that can not do much damage to orks then the rest of the army has a lot to make up.

For me it has always been a tossup between dread/kan Klaws or Nob bikers. the bikers have a good chance of getting there due to numbers and speed, and the dread/kan has a slightly better chance to crack it due to higher strength.

notabot187 wrote:If I'm going to commit a unit to destruction or glory, I want a bit better odds than 20 percent. Especially when that 20 percent chance only happens at combat speed, which we agree isn't going to happen with an opponent who knows what he is doing.

How is cruising speed even a issue? I said that you shouldn't try it at cruising speed.

And don't say that you can on the fly decide to send them in if your opponent makes that error, ork boyz are slow and cumbersome, and have a hard time cornering a vehicle, especially since they can just tank shock out of whatever trap you make for them. Oh, you are using battle wagon boyz? (I assume this because you are talking 20 boyz) Ok...

This thread is about a battlewagon bash trying to deal with two landraiders. Of course I'm not talking about footslogging units.

Those are meant to be your offensive scoring unit, not a tank hunting kill unit like nobs/MANz are.

Rather than respond to this, I'd like to quote your own post:
Sending your orks in against a redeemer is going to get them killed pretty quick, if not just from the flame cannon (possible to survive, flame templates are hit and miss depending on angles and grouping), but whatever nasty surprise inside is going to make short work of any nob squad (unless you are talking boyz, but then you just die hard to flame templates).

If you try to defend a position, don't use the same argument both ways.

Then the argument that a flamer isn't the end of the world goes away. 20 boyz minus the 6-8 you lose with no saves wounding on 2s... then some random bolter/dakka pred pushes you below 11 models, and then you are no longer fearless, and no longer a real threat to infantry in CC.

I could care less about fearless in a ld10 unit with a reroll. "No longer a real threat to infantry in CC" is a joke, right? Unless you are charging a unit with a huge amount of attacks, which they shouldn't be charging in the first place.

Ork boyz with hidden fists are a last ditch effort if you need to apply them to an AV vehicle. Not something to build a strategy around.

You know, that's what my posts said. Please read it again.

If you need to take out LRs, maybe it would be better to actually take the units that are good against them, despite with the internet wisdom says (which says MANz missiles are bad, which isn't completely untrue, but they fill a role very well).

So MANz missles in a battlewagon list? Great idea, just drop those lootaz and burnaz for single trukks, which will totally not be shot due to that high amount of target saturation. You can keep the internet wisdom comment to yourself, I often suggest MANz in trukks, just not in a list where there is absolutely no room for them.

MagicJuggler wrote:Once saw 14 killed by a BA Flamerback in a single go. It wasn't pretty. Additionally, there are the units supporting the Raiders (a fairly common troop setup for vanilla lists is "two full-strength tacsquads in Rhinos, with Multimelta, Flamer, and Combiflamer; Vulkan is optional). One way or another, Raiders allow one to delay you from bringing your full force to bear, should you lack the mobility to interdict their paths.

That requires a perfect teardrop in front of a flamer. Highly unlikely to get that result, not even by tank shocking with three vehicles. "I once saw" a single nob splitting attacks between two LR and wrecking them both. You also shouldn't be too surprised that a list tailored against orks is actually good against them.
As for support, you can assault a landraider with multiple units of boyz, boyz and nobz, boyz and warboss or whatever. You just add 20% to what the chance of the other unit was, and get a better result. If there is a landraider you are able to hit on a 4+, you should send anything that could scratch them against it.

I am sacrificing at least 180 points as opposed to 70, and am sacrificing a core Troop unit as opposed to a Fast Attack? False analogy. It's a good thing the shooting phase comes after the movement phase, and vehicles can't just drive over other vehicles...throwing a Boy unit is a *terrible* option.

Where do you take those numbers from? Neither is a squad of 20 boyz "at least 180 points", nor are three rokkit buggies 70 points. Please don't base your argument on imaginary numbers. Vehicles can drive over other vehicles, that's called ramming. A landraider even stands a decent chance of doing that, being an AV14 tank vs an AV10 open topped vehicles. If everything goes well, you lost three buggies and the LR is delayed for one turn. It might also do nothing at all and you still have lost one buggy. If you throw a boyz at it, it might not do anything or seriously damage the landraider. Then the landraider actually has to take a turn to shoot their magic ork-vanishing cannons at those boyz, resulting in it being delayed for one turn. Or it drives away and your boyz are fine. Now what's a terrible option? And please don't tell me you needed those boyz for scoring.

Besides, you were the first one to bring up boyz.

Because a single Land Raider moves at Combat Speed in front of multiple Boy Mobs with multiple claws, letting himself be enveloped...so "I shall rely on my opponent to slow down and specifically go for the one area where my opponent is most able to attempt to attrition me..." Yeah, that's a gift horse I don't plan on getting. Incidentally, you do not add the odds of individual units succeeding together to get your success rate, or as Morbo says:
THATS NOT HOW PROBABILITY WORKS!

Also, Flamerback BA with Melta assault troopers isn't exactly tailored against Orks. Or I suppose Sisters of Battle were originally tailored against Orks, no?

By the way, numbers I used:
20 Shootaboyz, 2 Rokkit Launchas (So you have extra shots from midfield, and have an option to Death or Glory light armor, that doesn't make your squad gimps in melee should it fail), and a Klaw Nob with Bosspole is 180 points. The "At least" comes from those people who occasionally run full mobs, as well as the relative weakness of Trukkmobs.
2 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Launchas is 70 points. I would probably run units of 3 as points scaled up from 2000.

That was all I was about to say until I saw this though.

Jidmah wrote:I could care less about fearless in a ld10 unit with a reroll. "No longer a real threat to infantry in CC" is a joke, right? Unless you are charging a unit with a huge amount of attacks, which they shouldn't be charging in the first place.

Some enemies charge back too; in fact, *unless* you are going Battlewagon-heavy, it's generally safe to assume that the enemy *will* get the charge off so they desire (with exception of you hitting a few screeners here and there, that is). *Fun* is facing a DE player with 6 Venoms, 3 Raiders each with 9 Wyches+a Haemonculus...and the guy rolls a 6 for his Drug result (faced this). *Fun* is being tankshocked into a U-formation where half your mob cannot actually Defenders React into the main fight proper, and your Klaw Nob spends his time twiddling his thumbs while you lose combat, get No-Retreated to below Fearless status, defeated next turn then run down because Orks have no initative. *Fun* is having your Nob Jaws-sniped before you get bowled over by an angry pack of Grey Hunters with the Wolf Standard. All of these mess up the larger units, and can also neuter your small ones in turn. Hell, even a basic unit of Guardians with Doom could probably give 9 Orks and their accompanying Nob a good thrashing, and when you can be trounced by *Guardians* (exaggerating for effect but still. On average, that will inflict 7.5 wounds on Orks from the shooty. It's not pretty)...There are a *lot* of threats out there which will turn Orks into minced fungus should you focus more on them and not on bringing sufficient supporting elements in turn.

He can't kill you boyz and keep moving, which is exactly what you were claiming.

So, how does any of this have to do with the OP (using a bw list) beating vanilla marines with two LR?
Last time I checked vanillar marines couldn't field wyches, haemunculi, wolf priests, grey hunters, farseers or guardians, and bw lists rarely include mobs of 30 or trukk boyz. This is straying way too far off topic.
Don't you think responding to "this might kill a landraider" with "but wyches kill you!" is kind of strange?

Besides you can add probabilities of independent events, you just have to do it right:

P(A+B) = P(A) + (1 - P(A)) * P(B) + P(A) * P(B)

You used a similar formula yourself a few posts ago.

Anyway, how come everybody is jumping me for mentioning boyz as a last ditch effort, while other people recommended rokkits and buzzsaws?
Lascannons have a way worse chance of hurting a KFF'ed bw and somehow they still keep firing at them. I guess all my opponents are idiots for trying.

Tank Bustas are your best friend. Either that or a gross amount of boys (w/ stikbombs).

Stikkbombs can't glance landraiders.

Even Tankbusta bombs struggle with AV 14

But that's what you have the Tankhammas for.

Interesting thing is that you could give the Nob a Tankhammer if you wanted. I think. It might say 'Boy' for that one.

Why? You can give him a klaw and let two boyz take those hammers.

More attacks at Str. 10. Nobz get 1 more than Boyz do.

It just says up to two Tankbustas, IIRC.

LOL, when I left germany on sunday this thread had 9 replies and was nearly dead, now I'm in sweden (visiting this guy with the two LRs....) and it now has 45 lol....

Thanks for your help guys, I'll chrush him soon enough, your replies were really usefull. I guess im not gonna concentrate on killing the wagons, but when he shows up in range of my rolla, he'll get flattened. hes got a normal raider and a crusader, btw. No redeemer, luckily


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LOL, when I left germany on sunday this thread had 9 replies and was nearly dead, now I'm in sweden (visiting this guy with the two LRs....) and it now has 45 lol....

Thanks for your help guys, I'll chrush him soon enough, your replies were really usefull. I guess im not gonna concentrate on killing the wagons, but when he shows up in range of my rolla, he'll get flattened. hes got a normal raider and a crusader, btw. No redeemer, luckily