Wood Elf shooting phase

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**Airmaniac**

I think it is really strange that only Glade Guard have S4 bows on short range. Why would Glade Guard Scouts, Waywatchers, Glade Riders etc. not have this? Are they not more elite versions of the Glade Guard? Similar to the Dark Elf Repeater Crossbow, I think they should incorporate a Wood Elf Bow that has 30" range and S4 on short range and replace all regular Longbows with the Wood Elf Bows. It could be debated whether they would need to get AP too. I think S4 and AP might be a bit much for a regular arrow (fluff wise). Correctly scaling (read: reduce) point costs would perhaps be a better option.

@sebster
I think units of 24 Halberdiers aren't realistic at all. I know noone who fields such small units. I see units of 40-50 all the time though. These kind of unit sizes will most definately lead to either a formation advantage for the Halberdiers or a decrease in shooting damage from the Glade Guard. As for the Panic checks, main battle line units are pretty much always near the BSB and General so chances are they won't fail their Panic checks (if you can even cause them on a 40+ size unit).

**sebster**

Airmaniac wrote:@sebster
I think units of 24 Halberdiers aren't realistic at all. I know noone who fields such small units. I see units of 40-50 all the time though. These kind of unit sizes will most definately lead to either a formation advantage for the Halberdiers or a decrease in shooting damage from the Glade Guard. As for the Panic checks, main battle line units are pretty much always near the BSB and General so chances are they won't fail their Panic checks (if you can even cause them on a 40+ size unit).

I see units of 24 halberdiers all the time. It depends on the meta-game in the area and the expected opposition, but in lots of environments deploying many more than that for supporting units would just be throwing away points.

I'm often puzzled on-line how many people assume IP and BSB will apply. Sure, that's how most armies set up, but there are so many tricks people use in games regularly to deny their use, from spreading their own lines to drag enemy units away from the leadership bubble to targetting and killing the general and/or BSB, that it is an incredibly dangerous assumption that both will be there when it really matters.

And it really isn't hard to cause a panic check on a 40 man unit of halberdiers. That's just ten kills, any army with any kind of points spent on ranged attacks shouldn't be struggling to kill 10 guys with T3 and light armour. be doing that as a bare minimum.

**Airmaniac**

sebster wrote:And it really isn't hard to cause a panic check on a 40 man unit of halberdiers. That's just ten kills, any army with any kind of points spent on ranged attacks shouldn't be struggling to kill 10 guys with T3 and light armour. be doing that as a bare minimum.

The key word here (highlighted) being army. Sure, an entire army should have no problems forcing a panic check on a single unit of Halberdiers. We were talking about a points comparison though. Would 17 Glade Guard (the points cost equivalent) have an easy time forcing a panic check on those 40 Halberdiers? I don't think so...

**sebster**

Airmaniac wrote:The key word here (highlighted) being army. Sure, an entire army should have no problems forcing a panic check on a single unit of Halberdiers. We were talking about a points comparison though. Would 17 Glade Guard (the points cost equivalent) have an easy time forcing a panic check on those 40 Halberdiers? I don't think so...

We've already been through this, where I pointed out they'd be forcing panic checks in the second volley and in the stand and shoot.

To repeat it more fully, 17 Glade Guard can expect to kill 4.7 halberdiers at long range, leaving 35.3 in the unit. In the second turn, they can be expected to kill 9.4 more, which is 26% of the unit size at the start of the phase, forcing a panic check. Then in their stand & fire reaction they can expect to kill another 7.5 of the remaining 25.8 halberdiers, which is 29% of the size of the unit.

So if you think that unit by itself shouldn't be able to force panic checks on the halberdiers with missile fire... then you'd have to agree that as proposed the unit is too powerful.

**Airmaniac**

@sebster
If you would have read my posts, you would have also noticed that I have already said that all of those changes together would make them too powerful:

Airmaniac wrote:I agree that moving and firing without penalty, BS5, AP on stand and shoot, while keeping all other rules might be a bit too powerful

Currently, 17 Glade Guard can expect to kill ~3.54 Halberdiers, leaving ~36.46. Then the second round leads to ~7.56 kills (less than 25%), leaving ~28.9 Halberdiers. The stand and shoot then results in ~5,67 kills (less than 25%), leaving ~23,23 Halberdiers, which will have no trouble at all beating the Glade Guard in close combat.

I think a buff is definately required (probably just reduce Glade Guard point costs, or alternatively increase BS to 5 while reducing WS).

**sebster**

Airmaniac wrote:@sebster
If you would have read my posts, you would have also noticed that I have already said that all of those changes together would make them too powerful:[.quote]

Ah yes, you're right, I lost track of the conversation there, my bad.

Currently, 17 Glade Guard can expect to kill ~3.54 Halberdiers, leaving ~36.46. Then the second round leads to ~7.56 kills (less than 25%), leaving ~28.9 Halberdiers. The stand and shoot then results in ~5,67 kills (less than 25%), leaving ~23,23 Halberdiers, which will have no trouble at all beating the Glade Guard in close combat.

Note that they're expected results, not guarantees. With 10 Guard taking on 24 halberdiers, and assuming a just below average number of kills at long and short range totalling 6 dead halberdiers, the Guard would need to inflict 5 casualties or more when standing and shooting to force a panic check. A quick look run through the binomial calcs and there's a 21% chance of that happening. It isn't huge, but it isn't nothing either.

I think a buff is definately required (probably just reduce Glade Guard point costs, or alternatively increase BS to 5 while reducing WS).

I don't think it really work, in terms of fluff, to make them simpler cheaper. "And lo, the Glade Guard did emerge from the forest, and while they were only modestly accurate and their arrows fairly feeble, there was a lot of Glade Guard so they did alright in the end"...

It'd also mean they improved their performance against junkier troops like halberdiers, but in my experience they normally do okay against those kinds of troops as it is. BS 5 would also just increase the mass of arrows hitting the target, meaning much the same thing as a points drop in effect (though importantly not in fluff). It's harder troops where the arrows tend to plink off, against T4 but especially against decent armour.

Nah, I'd rather they got a boost against harder troops, and that's why I'm arguing to give them AP instead.

**Airmaniac**

In my opinion, Glade Guard need a buff against both standard infantry and heavy infantry. In my opinion Wood Elves need to be able to take down ranks of big steadfast infantry blocks from range, because their play style should be built around short quick combats where you want them, and avoidance where you don't want combats. These short combats can only happen if the Wood Elves have a decent counter to steadfast units. Currently, Glade Guard don't do enough damage to the standard infantry types to be able to take them down in combat quickly.

**Warpsolution**

So...I'll just jump in quick, here.

For the record, you can assume I'll agree with the people with the most total posts.

AP would be handy. I do think, though, that BS5 would be a reasonable alternative. Yeah, they're Core troops. But...they're 12pt Core troops. Furthermore, all elves have the same base stat line, and while the others have Speed of Asuryan and Hatred and armour and maybe some repeater crossbows, Wood Elves have Forest Strider, and can ignore a -1 to hit in two instances. I'd just as soon knock off ignoring the penalties and make their To Hit roll lower in the first place, and lower overall. It's simpler, and I think it represents the "best archers in the Old World" pretty well.

Really, though, the whole ambush/sniper feel to an army just doesn't play well in 8th. So I got to thinking...
...what if the whole army had Hit and Run as a special rule? I'll be starting another thread on this.

**rockerbikie**

DukeRustfield wrote:
Guardian_Phoenix wrote:For a start, Glade Guard should be WS3 and BS5. So, option to fire with the Multiple Shots x2 special rule. They should also have the Killing Blow special rule at short range.

Just give them all 5-use breath weapons of Str 10 with D6 wounds called Arrows of OP where if the unit doesn't save, the shooting player gets to jump up and down on the enemy player's models and punch him/her in the face.

I agree this with this rule if Mat Ward wrote the book.

Joking.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think Wood Elves should have a universal 5+ Dodge roll except for forest spirits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wardancers should have a 4+ Ward from their tattoos.
There 4 dances should be:
1) Always strike first
2) Killing blow
3)+2 attacks
4)Re-rolls to wound

I also think Magic arrows and spites should have a seperate page like Ogres have their titles.

**Warpsolution**

Here's a thought, going back to Glade Guard:

I know there's a formula for how much a model costs. 20-25pts for +1 attack on a character, +1-2pts for an extra hand weapon on rank-and-file. Whatever.

But...Wood Elves have Dryads- a pricey skirmish unit, Glade Riders- a pricey and fragile fast cavalry unit, and Glade Guard- a pricey rank-and-file ranged unit.

Glade Guard are their only typical Core choice that offers a chance at Steadfast and all that stuff that 8th is so big on. In the whole book, we've got Eternal Guard, Treekin, and the two horse-units that can get ranks at all, and they're all very expensive, and most of them are very fragile besides.

So what I'm getting at is: while 12pts for a Glade Guard is certainly a good buy, it's the only basic option they have to fulfill this role, and they're not that good at it; they're better at other stuff.
Wouldn't a (slight) point-drop be reasonable, then? It just doesn't seem to matter how good a model is, if you can't field a decent number. I'd even be willing to watch them lose S4 at close range, just to drop down to 10pts a model.
I know they're better than other elf archers...at archery. But...eh. I think all the smart people will get what I'm sayin', right?

**Airmaniac**

@Warpsolution

In my opinion it would not fit Wood Elves at all to get any sort of unit with a lot of ranks. While it might be good in game terms, it would go against any concept of Wood Elf tactics (according to Lore).

I think it is better to focus on developing the army so that it will still function according to it's Lore. For Wood Elves, this is picking off enemies at range, avoiding the close combat threats they can't handle while destroying those units that they can handle in a short amount of time (using multi charges).

**Warpsolution**

I agree, and I see where I've been a little vague. Wood Elves--like all Elves--are elite warriors. They should never easily be fielded in large units or horde-formations. But units of 20-30? I think that should be managable and worthwhile, without giving up on all the smaller units that make Wood Elves unique.

I think they need to be a little less about the whole Ambush/Sniper thing, because otherwise, the army will function in an entirely different manner from every other army in Warhammer, which'll be weird and hard to balance.

**sebster**

Warpsolution wrote:Glade Guard are their only typical Core choice that offers a chance at Steadfast and all that stuff that 8th is so big on. In the whole book, we've got Eternal Guard, Treekin, and the two horse-units that can get ranks at all, and they're all very expensive, and most of them are very fragile besides.

So what I'm getting at is: while 12pts for a Glade Guard is certainly a good buy, it's the only basic option they have to fulfill this role, and they're not that good at it; they're better at other stuff.
Wouldn't a (slight) point-drop be reasonable, then? It just doesn't seem to matter how good a model is, if you can't field a decent number. I'd even be willing to watch them lose S4 at close range, just to drop down to 10pts a model.
I know they're better than other elf archers...at archery. But...eh. I think all the smart people will get what I'm sayin', right?

I think you could drop the price and make them competitive, but I think you'd risk losing what made them feel like a unique army.

Wood Elves are a challenge because their place is as elite archers, and the game right now isn't too friendly to that style of play. But doing a few small things to improve their archery, along with improvements/price drops for their fighting critters, will make them competitive.

**Warpsolution**

I guess it's a balance between keeping their unique tone without making them so weird and different that they feel like a separate extension of the game. The Forces of Order, the Forces of Chaos, the guys on the fence, and the Wood Elves.

**Warboss Fugnutz**

Just want to add that here in the Southern Wisconsin - Northern Illinois area, WE have had an awakening and are doing pretty damn good at tourneys and the FLGS. They're my g/f's secondary army to Dwarfs, and she tears it up with a glade guard - treekin 1-2 combo that can send opponents reeling.

Loss of skirmisher disruption was a blow to the WE, but they're not an under-performing army, imo.

I'd be more concerned with fixing the actual broken units of the WE than upgrading the already good ones.

If I'd grant the glade guard anything, it would be to reduce their points cost by 1 or 2. It doesn't improve the unit's stats, but it does show that the woods are full of very competent and willing archers who will volley you into oblivion.