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According to the lore Wood Elves are the best ranged troops in warhammer fantasy, so shouldn't their shooting phase be hated and feared like (though perhaps not to the extent that) the Chaos armies' close combat phase is hated and feared?

I've been trying to think of some relatively simple rules to illustrate this. Any advice/criticism is appreciated. My ideas thus far:

Asrai Archery: Any wood elf unit takes no penalty from moving and shooting nor for Standing and Shooting in reaction to a charge. In addition any time a wood elf unit rolls a 1 on a to hit roll for a ranged attack it may reroll.

Glade Guard Longbows: The bows used by the Asrai are exceptionally well crafted and maintained, often they are heirlooms made from the heartwoods of ancient trees close to death. An attack made at short range with a Glade Guard longbow hits at Str 4. Additionally Glade Guard longbows have the Quick to Fire rule.

The fact is, almost all Wood Elves could comfortably place an arrow in every gap in a knights armour. In-game, they need to show their specialities more. For a start, Glade Guard should be WS3 and BS5. Wood Elves are typically trained with a bow, not a sword, so I see no reason why they should be WS4. They should, however, definitely be better BS than a High Elf Archer, a mere citizen levy. A good citizen levy, but nevertheless, not a true hardened soldier whose life has been dedicated to marksmanship. Next, they should fire faster and with a more devastating effect. So, option to fire with the Multiple Shots x2 special rule. They should also have the Killing Blow special rule at short range.

Another issue which I believe should be addressed is the most important Wood Elf theme - ambush. There are only small references to this attribute throughout the Wood Elf army book, such as the Forest Stalkers special rule for Waywatchers, and Woodland Ambush , and even then the latter isn't really an ambush ability, it just adds terrain to add further insult - it's not even in the enemy territory. So, maybe Wood Elves should be able to choose to do a Woodland Ambush, as a special rule. It could work like this:
Any Wood Elf unit can choose to perform a Woodland Ambush. At the start of each turn, roll a D6 and add the turn number, and consult the table below for the result:
2 - Failed ambush; move on from players table edge instead
3-4 - Place unit in random wooded terrain piece. May shoot with no penalties, but may not move or charge.
5-6 - Place unit in selected wooded terrain piece. May move (but not march or charge), and shoot without penalties
7+ - Place unit in selected wooded terrain piece. Move and shoot normally (including march/charge). In addition, if any casualties are caused from shooting, the enemy unit must immediately take a panic check, regardless of casualties caused.

Notice how it is (in some ways) similar to Beastmen ambush, but it's better. This is because frankly Wood Elves are more accomplished at ambushing, and the chance of a failed ambush is pretty slim.

Let me know what you think

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:For a start, Glade Guard should be WS3 and BS5. So, option to fire with the Multiple Shots x2 special rule. They should also have the Killing Blow special rule at short range.

Just give them all 5-use breath weapons of Str 10 with D6 wounds called Arrows of OP where if the unit doesn't save, the shooting player gets to jump up and down on the enemy player's models and punch him/her in the face.


I want to make a new Proposed Rule that no one can make Proposed Rules about armies they regularly play. It's like parents talking about their children, they lose all objectivity.

Alright then, what are your ideas?

DukeRustfield wrote:

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:For a start, Glade Guard should be WS3 and BS5. So, option to fire with the Multiple Shots x2 special rule. They should also have the Killing Blow special rule at short range.

Just give them all 5-use breath weapons of Str 10 with D6 wounds called Arrows of OP where if the unit doesn't save, the shooting player gets to jump up and down on the enemy player's models and punch him/her in the face.

I want to make a new Proposed Rule that no one can make Proposed Rules about armies they regularly play. It's like parents talking about their children, they lose all objectivity.

With no minus for moving and shooting, Glade Guard kind of are BS5 already. You really should be firing on the move.
At 12 points, you can't really get any better than they are. You're going to have to ether get more expensive, or give up some ability (like S4 at short range, or gain a -1 for movement).

Multiple shot BS5 comes in around 16 points (shades), without a whole lot of other shooting bonuses. In large volumes, skirmish hurts the unit, the foot print becomes so wide you can't maximize your firepower onto a single target.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt said:
Multiple shot BS5 comes in around 16 points (shades), without a whole lot of other shooting bonuses.

HawaiiMatt, so why not make them 16 points then? Wood Elves are not large in number, so that's an option. Also remember that Shades are WS5, Scout and have Hatred, so they too have bonuses, even if they're not dedicated to shooting.

These are all ideas to get the ball rolling, they don't all have to be used.

Honestly I don't think Glade Guard are good for 12 points each. They're quite awful. For 3 points more you get a Chaos Warrior: -1M, +1WS, -1BS, +1S, +1T, +1A, +3Armour save. That's without any of the many customisations they can take. So what do Wood Elves get? A Longbow and the ability to move (not march) and shoot without penalties. Glade Guard don't make much of a dent in anyone (unfortunately) unless you hoard them. And being able to move and shoot without penalty is not the equivalent of BS5, what happens if you don't move? You seem to be assuming that all Wood Elves move in every turn, so it's always a present advantage; this is untrue.

Wood Elves in general are very dissapointing in the light of the new rules, and their shooting phase needs to be feared, as Greenleaves12 said. And DukeRustfield feel free to disagree but please explain how this could be fixed rather than just saying what you don't like

Another point to add to Guardian Phoenix's arguments, and something that people may not realize if they haven't played Wood Elves.

The army basically has two components: elite archers and assault troops who can thresh through a lot of mediocre troops, but will fold quickly if they can't generate perhaps half a dozen wounds per combat phase.

Wood Elves have almost nothing in the way of static combat, they simply aren't able to grind down enemy units. They used to be able to make up for this with mobility and negating ranks through flank charges, but with the new rules their two best melee troops (Dryads and War Dancers) can't do this anymore. Even three Wood Elf units on say one Dwarf or Skaven unit are unlikely to win (from personal experience at least). That is why an impressive Shooting phase is more important for the Wood Elves than many other ranged armies (Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven) who still have reliable rank and file.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:

HawaiiMatt said:
Multiple shot BS5 comes in around 16 points (shades), without a whole lot of other shooting bonuses.

HawaiiMatt, so why not make them 16 points then? Wood Elves are not large in number, so that's an option. Also remember that Shades are WS5, Scout and have Hatred, so they too have bonuses, even if they're not dedicated to shooting.

These are all ideas to get the ball rolling, they don't all have to be used.

Honestly I don't think Glade Guard are good for 12 points each. They're quite awful. For 3 points more you get a Chaos Warrior: -1M, +1WS, -1BS, +1S, +1T, +1A, +3Armour save. That's without any of the many customisations they can take. So what do Wood Elves get? A Longbow and the ability to move (not march) and shoot without penalties. Glade Guard don't make much of a dent in anyone (unfortunately) unless you hoard them. And being able to move and shoot without penalty is not the equivalent of BS5, what happens if you don't move? You seem to be assuming that all Wood Elves move in every turn, so it's always a present advantage; this is untrue.

Wood Elves in general are very dissapointing in the light of the new rules, and their shooting phase needs to be feared, as Greenleaves12 said. And DukeRustfield feel free to disagree but please explain how this could be fixed rather than just saying what you don't like

Chaos warriors should fear wood elf shooting phases. If wood elves only get 1 shot at long, 1 at short, and stand and fire; every 2 glade guard should kill 1 chaos warrior at range.
Since warriors are 50% more expensive (more with marks), point for point, glade guard should be able to combine fire, wipe out some warrior units, while losing some archer units in exchange.
What doesn't fear the wood elf shooting phase is marauders. You just can't kill enough low point hordes to stop them, you don't have anything the tosses templates around to thin them, and eternal guard are slightly too expensive to have them be a solution.

Making an individual Glade Guard better might tip the scale too much towards a game of nothing but a shooting phase.
What if Glade Guard could volley fire on the move, and on a stand and fire?
That would let you rank up (with a slight loss in firepower) but still have some ranks to generate static combat res against the survivors who make it into combat.

Oh, and on the topic of shades, I'd gladly give up hate and WS5 for a magic banner. I'd give up skirmish for nothing. You can't use shades in large units because the skirmish rules makes the units foot print HUGE. +1 movement or Flaming are both awesome upgrades on a large shooting block.


-Matt

I was just making fun of multi-shot KB at range on a Core troop. Which is heaped-up crazy.

If you want to represent hitting through armor, give them Armor Piercing, not Killing Blow.

Nearly every solution to every unit in the game can also be solved by repricing. If they cost 1 a piece, they would be the greatest unit that ever existed. If they cost 100 each, they would be the worst unit that ever existed. Okay, so somewhere in between would be a perfect price that would make them solid and fair. What is it?

DukeRustfield wrote:I was just making fun of multi-shot KB at range on a Core troop. Which is heaped-up crazy.

If you want to represent hitting through armor, give them Armor Piercing, not Killing Blow.

Nearly every solution to every unit in the game can also be solved by repricing. If they cost 1 a piece, they would be the greatest unit that ever existed. If they cost 100 each, they would be the worst unit that ever existed. Okay, so somewhere in between would be a perfect price that would make them solid and fair. What is it?

Repricing works to balance cost to effect. It doesn't balance effect to fluff.

-Matt

DukeRustField said:
If you want to represent hitting through armor, give them Armor Piercing, not Killing Blow.

I like that, that'd work better.

Somehow they need to be shown to fire faster than ordinary bowman. Maybe by giving them Quick to Fire, as Greenleaves12 originally suggested? And again, as he suggested, what about re-rolls of a '1' to hit? If the unit was kept at having the additional rules of re-rolls of a '1', Armour Piercing and Quick to Fire, that would bring them up to, say 15 points each? Is that more reasonable? Hopefully it addresses your concern of balance cost to effect, HawaiiMatt.

Also, I think we should still address the ambush side of Wood Elves, as I suggested, but maybe that should be another thread (?)

HawaiiMatt wrote:Repricing works to balance cost to effect. It doesn't balance effect to fluff.

But they're not unfluffy. There's only so much you can do with D6. An Ogre is 10-12 feet tall and, who knows, but probably a thousand pounds. Yet they're only 33% stronger than the most average, blandest human who was unfortunate to get drafted--if that was a real percentage and not a Warhammer gaming value, they wouldn't even be able to move their bodies being that weak. Orcs are solid muscle. Born to combat and constantly waging it. They are exactly 0% stronger than your average Empire human (or Wood Elf for that matter).

Glade Guard are faster than humans in speed, much more accurate, better fighters, have vastly better quickness. Not sure how much fluffier you want to make them, but they trump generic Empire shooters in nearly every way along the same lines as an Ogre trumps a human, except in quickness and shooty.

Or if you are worried about a shooting phase becoming too over powered give them a spell that all units within 12" of a caster may shoot. Also to go with Greenleaves12 said about reroll ones allow them to have a spell that lets them reroll hits and wounds or giving them killing blow.

Its the spells that suck! Make a Wood Elf Lore and a Dryad Lore. The wood elf lore boosts the shooting and combat of all wood elves and has no effect on forest spirits or a limited effect on them. A dryad lore would deal with forest spirits and woods on the table.

I don't think guardian pheonix was too off the mark at the start.

I like the idea that (like any elven army) the wood elves have units very good at one thing, and very bad at others. Glade Guard should fold in CC, even 5 clanrats should wipe a squad. However, they should be ace in the shooting phase. WS 2 or 3 and strength 3 with no armour makes them suck in CC. Sure, they'll hit first, but they're not likely to do anything.

BS 5 would make a huge difference, representing their superior marksmanship. Then str 3 arrows at long and str 4 at short is fine. As a special rule they could have gain the armour piercing rule when performing a stand and shoot reaction.

They're still pretty pants at long range, 12 str 3 shots isn't going to scare anyone even if 10 of them hit. I would still find dropping the points reasonable.

lunarman wrote:I don't think guardian pheonix was too off the mark at the start.

I like the idea that (like any elven army) the wood elves have units very good at one thing, and very bad at others. Glade Guard should fold in CC, even 5 clanrats should wipe a squad. However, they should be ace in the shooting phase. WS 2 or 3 and strength 3 with no armour makes them suck in CC. Sure, they'll hit first, but they're not likely to do anything.

BS 5 would make a huge difference, representing their superior marksmanship. Then str 3 arrows at long and str 4 at short is fine. As a special rule they could have gain the armour piercing rule when performing a stand and shoot reaction.

They're still pretty pants at long range, 12 str 3 shots isn't going to scare anyone even if 10 of them hit. I would still find dropping the points reasonable.

12 shots @ 144 points?
12 shots is never a problem.
The problem is 120 shots for 1440 points. That's 26 wounding hits at long range against T4. That's 50 wounding hits at short range, at -1 to save; and another 40 wounds during a stand and fire, at -2 to save.
Archers killing ~116 models before your opponent sees combat is pretty one sided. Making them cheaper is not a good idea.
To give you an idea, that long range, + short, + stand and fire kills ~80 chaos warriors.
Wood elves should have a strong shooting phase, but it shouldn't be their only phase.

~2 points cheaper would result in ~96 chaos warrior killed. And you don't have to march block/redirect. That's just deploy and fire.
No, better and cheaper is not going to work.

-Matt

DukeRustfield wrote:Nearly every solution to every unit in the game can also be solved by repricing. If they cost 1 a piece, they would be the greatest unit that ever existed. If they cost 100 each, they would be the worst unit that ever existed. Okay, so somewhere in between would be a perfect price that would make them solid and fair. What is it?

Which only works if you're willing to keep cutting the price until you end up with Wood Elves as a horde army, relying on sheer mass of numbers to provide enough killing power. Which would produce a competitive army, albeit one that didn't look anything like the Wood Elves of the fluff. It's far better to set the price of troops according to their relative scarcity and quality in the fluff, and then give them abilities to justify that points cost.


Really, the problem here is that it is pretty hard to make a unit of archers particularly deadly when they've only got a Str 3 weapon. Str 4 at close range is a nice half measure, and the ability to move and fire without penalty gives them the ability to really make that Str 4 count, getting in to the flanks of enemy units and firing volleys in there. Honestly, giving them AP would probably solve their problems entirely.

Not that archers are really the problem in the Wood Elf. Once the real problems get solved, archers will be just fine.

sebster wrote:Which only works if you're willing to keep cutting the price until you end up with Wood Elves as a horde army

Oh, you're being silly. Handgunners from Empire and and Quarrelers Dwarfs are fairly cheap. They certainly aren't hordes. Skeleton archers are hordes and you're welcome to reduce yourself to BS2 to get that. BS4 is really good on a Core choice, only the sissy elf trio has it at all.

Empire and Dwarfs have higher str attacks but lower BS and are Move or Fire. The handgun, with its AP high str has lower range and move or fire for a reason. They apparently don't want WE to be a fixed gunline like those races.

Thunderers are certainly an elite shooter. Equivalent of BS4, Str 4 shot with AP but move or fire at 24". The unit also has light armor and T4. But has M3 and I2. For 14 pts. So because of its shorter range, they may have to move into combat, which they are also slower at doing and they can't shoot and move, so it's going to be likely 1 wasted turn at least. Still, I think they are a unit to evaluate against although they are designed somewhat different.

DukeRustfield wrote:Oh, you're being silly. Handgunners from Empire and and Quarrelers Dwarfs are fairly cheap. They certainly aren't hordes. Skeleton archers are hordes and you're welcome to reduce yourself to BS2 to get that. BS4 is really good on a Core choice, only the sissy elf trio has it at all.

Huh? I think you took my post in a very strange fashion, placing absolute emphasis on the word 'hordes'.

Here's the thing, Wood Elves did not always have the special rules for ignoring the mod for moving and shooting and +1 at short range. At one time they were just guys with long bows, with the same stat line as every other standard elf. That was it. Had the designers followed your concept of adjusting the price until the unit was balanced, then that's all we'd have today, the elite and deadly snipers of Athel Loren would be guys with BS4 and long bows.

There's more to decent unit design than pricing the abilities correctly. You have to get the rules right as well, so that unit is as effective in combat as ought to be given its fluff. Dropping the price of elven archers to make them more dependant on massed numbers than quality bow fire is the wrong approach, considering they're not that pricey now, and nowhere near the threat the fluff would make them out to be.

Empire and Dwarfs have higher str attacks but lower BS and are Move or Fire. The handgun, with its AP high str has lower range and move or fire for a reason. They apparently don't want WE to be a fixed gunline like those races.

It's a mistake talking about the costs of Empire and Dwarf archers, relative to Wood Elves. Its no secret that BS based shooting is pretty underwhelming in this edition, and while Dwarves and Empire have war machines to make up for that, Wood Elves do not. Their bows have to be, and by their fluff quite rightly should be, the core of their shooting, so they can't afford somewhat overpriced shooting. Nor is a price drop a good option, for reasons explained above. Instead, what they need is a modest boost, such as AP.

Meanwhile, the next Empire book should definitely be balancing a hefty price increase for mortars against a single point drop for crossbowmen and handgunners.

Long range BS shooting is fine. Move or shoot at low range is pretty crap. But mostly its getting units into combat too quickly or the dominance of war machines. Some of it just depends on your terrain and overall table setup.

You better believe if I take Ogres they will have leadbelchers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:12 shots @ 144 points?
12 shots is never a problem.
The problem is 120 shots for 1440 points. That's 26 wounding hits at long range against T4. That's 50 wounding hits at short range, at -1 to save; and another 40 wounds during a stand and fire, at -2 to save.
Archers killing ~116 models before your opponent sees combat is pretty one sided. Making them cheaper is not a good idea.
To give you an idea, that long range, + short, + stand and fire kills ~80 chaos warriors.
Wood elves should have a strong shooting phase, but it shouldn't be their only phase.

~2 points cheaper would result in ~96 chaos warrior killed. And you don't have to march block/redirect. That's just deploy and fire.
No, better and cheaper is not going to work.

-Matt

I think you are forgetting armour saves. Assuming the Chaos Warriors have shields 120 Glade Guard firing at long range results in ~6-7 dead Chaos Warriors, at short range results in ~20 dead Chaos Warriors, during stand and shoot results in ~15 dead Chaos Warriors. If I total this, it's ~41-42 dead Chaos Warriors, not ~80. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 1440 points of Glade Guard to be able to take out more than ~675 points of Chaos Warriors. After all, the Glade Guard are pushovers in close combat.

3/3/3/1 is a pushover--or more really, average.
4/3/3/5 is not.

Airmaniac wrote:I think you are forgetting armour saves. Assuming the Chaos Warriors have shields 120 Glade Guard firing at long range results in ~6-7 dead Chaos Warriors, at short range results in ~20 dead Chaos Warriors, during stand and shoot results in ~15 dead Chaos Warriors. If I total this, it's ~41-42 dead Chaos Warriors, not ~80. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 1440 points of Glade Guard to be able to take out more than ~675 points of Chaos Warriors. After all, the Glade Guard are pushovers in close combat.

I think you might be forgetting that it was proposed the Chaos Warriors get AP when they're standing and shooting. So you get 9 kills at long range, 25 at short range and 26 when standing and shooting, for 60 overall or 960 points worth Chaos Warriors, if they were given shields. Without shields it grows to 80 dead, for 1,280 points worth.

And remember that's against heavily armoured foot infantry, imagine what that unit would do against more lightly armoured opponents? Against Swordmasters they'd blow through 135 of the guys, or 2,160 points worth.

@DukeRustfield
Their opponents in the example being Chaos Warriors, I think it is fair to say that they are pushovers in combat. Any unit that won't find Glade Guard to be a pushover in combat would lose a lot less points on the way in. For example Clanrats with shields would ~97-98 models, or ~440 points worth. I don't think that is enough for 1440 points worth of models, as 1000 points of Clan Rats (the left overs after all the shooting) will easily beat 1440 points of Glade Guard in combat.

@sebster
I don't get how giving them AP on a stand and shoot is increasing the casualty count in the regular shooting phases? According to my calculations it would only add 5 casualties (20 up from 15) on the stand and shoot, which means it would be ~46-47 dead Chaos Warriors with shields. As for the without shields argument, who takes Chaos Warriors without shields anyway? They are way to expensive to not take the additional protection against ranged attacks.

Or you could compare with, say, Skavenslaves and get ~250 points worth of casualties. Comparing with the extremes is a bad idea in my opinion, as balancing it for the amount of Sword Masters they kill would result in Glade Guard being terrible. Sword Masters are supposed to die to shooting, it is why they are so good in close combat.

Airmaniac wrote:@sebster
I don't get how giving them AP on a stand and shoot is increasing the casualty count in the regular shooting phases? According to my calculations it would only add 5 casualties (20 up from 15) on the stand and shoot, which means it would be ~46-47 dead Chaos Warriors with shields. As for the without shields argument, who takes Chaos Warriors without shields anyway? They are way to expensive to not take the additional protection against ranged attacks.

My reasoning goes as follows;
120 shots, long range at BS5 will hit 2/3 of the time.
At Str3 they'll wound on 5s, will wound 1/3 of the time.
With no armour mod against chaos warriors with shields they'll penetrate 1/3 of the time.
That adds up to 120 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 for 8.89 kills.

120 shots, short range at BS5 will hit 5/6 of the time.
At Str 4 they'll wound on 4s, so 1/2 of the time.
With -1 armour mod they'll penetrate 1/2 of the time.
That adds up to 120 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 1/2 for 25 kills.

120, short range but standing and shooting will hit 4/6 of the time.
At Str 4 they'll wound on 4s, so half the time.
With -2 armour mod they'll penetrate 2/3 of the time.
That adds up to 120 * 4/6 * 1/2 * 2/3 for 26.67 kills.

That all adds up to 60.56 kills.

Or you could compare with, say, Skavenslaves and get ~250 points worth of casualties. Comparing with the extremes is a bad idea in my opinion, as balancing it for the amount of Sword Masters they kill would result in Glade Guard being terrible. Sword Masters are supposed to die to shooting, it is why they are so good in close combat.

Point taken on swordmasters being the extreme, and I'm happy to concede that swordmasters should fare very poorly against missile troops relative to their points cost, but it must be noted that the Glade Guard are free to pick their target from among the enemy. So if High Elves hit the board, it's the Swordmasters who'll get targeted.

Whereas if a big unit of slaves hits the board the Wood Elf player will only fire at it if it is the only target made available. If there's only skaven slave units... well that says more about the effectiveness of slaves than anything else.

So what about Empire Halberdiers? The Guard with these rules would kill 153 of them, or 765 points worth, and then be about as effective as the halberdiers once in combat. I think that's probably a fair bit too effective.

@sebster
I was calculating with BS4. I agree that moving and firing without penalty, BS5, AP on stand and shoot, while keeping all other rules might be a bit too powerful, but not that by that much. Compare them to the damage dealt by 1440 points of Repeater Crossbowmen (with shields), which kill ~50 Chaos Warriors, yet are better in combat (hatred on the first round, parry save) and have better survivability (slightly more wounds, better armour save) and you may see why I believe Glade Guard to need a shooting buff.

As for the targetting, that is true, but you should also take into account that it is almost impossible to bring this amount of firepower to bear on such a small portion of the table and units might be screened for the negative to hit modifiers when shooting at the more fragile targets.

As for Glade Guard being as effective as Halberdiers once in combat, I disagree. Glade Guard have no armour saves and are S3. Also, their formation will be terrible for combat, unless you reform prior to combat, which reduces the shooting at short range damage and the stand and shoot damage by quite a bit (less models on the front ranks).

Airmaniac wrote:@sebster
I was calculating with BS4. I agree that moving and firing without penalty, BS5, AP on stand and shoot, while keeping all other rules might be a bit too powerful, but not that by that much. Compare them to the damage dealt by 1440 points of Repeater Crossbowmen (with shields), which kill ~50 Chaos Warriors, yet are better in combat (hatred on the first round, parry save) and have better survivability (slightly more wounds, better armour save) and you may see why I believe Glade Guard to need a shooting buff.

Ah, okay. I'm actually arguing to just give them AP and keeping everything else the same. My point was that BS5 just made them too effective.

Giving them AP they end up a bit more effective than most other standard shooting, which I am more than okay with, as Wood Elves are basically the ranged list that isn't built around war machines - they need their mobile shooters to pull a greater share of the weight.

As for the targetting, that is true, but you should also take into account that it is almost impossible to bring this amount of firepower to bear on such a small portion of the table and units might be screened for the negative to hit modifiers when shooting at the more fragile targets.

True. There's also the issue of overkill (the enemy might not have a unit large enough to justify that kind of massed shooting) and range problems on a unit with that kind of footprint. Really, the 120 strong unit is kind of a theoretical thing, sensibly we'd look at something closer to 6 units of 20 each.

As for Glade Guard being as effective as Halberdiers once in combat, I disagree. Glade Guard have no armour saves and are S3. Also, their formation will be terrible for combat, unless you reform prior to combat, which reduces the shooting at short range damage and the stand and shoot damage by quite a bit (less models on the front ranks).

The higher WS on the elves offsets the strength advantage, while the armour save the halberdiers get is only a 6+ while the Guard get the advantage of going first (not that much of an advantage when talking about these hypothetical mega-units, but a considerable advantage when talking about the smaller units we're likely to see). I think this leaves the two two units 'about as effective' as each other in combat.

Although I do not that that that despite taking 153 casualties on the way into combat, the halberdiers outnumber the Guard 135 to 120, giving them the edge. Though, of course, the halberdiers were likely to suffer a panic test on the way in, and the chances of failing that and ending the battle in disastrous route shouldn't be ignored.

@sebster
still the formation difference will mean that the Halberdiers will most likely win and be steadfast, giving a decent chance the Glade Guard will break from combat and get run down...

IMHO the ideas about no penalties for moving and shooting and standing and shooting are good ideas.
Not sure about str 4 longbows and killing blow though. Isn't that taking it a bit too far, after all they areonly basic troops.
Just my 2 cents.

Airmaniac wrote:@sebster
still the formation difference will mean that the Halberdiers will most likely win and be steadfast, giving a decent chance the Glade Guard will break from combat and get run down...

Sure, but only if we keep talking about the silly 1,440 point units. If we talk about more sensible units, say 10 Glade Guard going up against 24 halberdiers (120 points each) you get a more sensible result. Assuming one round of firing at long range, one at short and then the stand and shoot rection, you can expect the Guard to kill 13. At which point the halberdiers would be going into combat with just two complete ranks. If they get there, considering they'd have to make two panic checks for casualties on the way in. The single rank bonus from the halberdiers probably wouldn't last past the Guard's rounds of attack, as they could be expected to kill 3 before the halberdiers got to fight, at which point it's a very even fight.

No to KB on them, yes to AP. All WE with a bow should have AP on them (increasing the use of the flanking units) at any range, then S4 at close. I have also contemplated Scouts having S4 at close range, as 17ppm is FAR to expensive for what they do. I rather like the idea of rerolling 1s (as I had this idea for Tau) but it is unlikely to be used.

They COULD however, reinstitute the "Fire and Flee" reaction for WE, which would be very fluffy, and also allow the avoidance of combat.

Otherwise, I would certainly advise a 1-2pt decrease in in cost, with a 2-4 decrease in cost for scouts. Glade Riders should likely go down 5+ points, unless their bows are upgraded, as you get all that you get in glade riders only moreso in Dark Riders.

Also I would be all for the tree man to get a rockthrowing ability. It's not about having a WM, per se, but more because it's fluffy and cool.