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Definitely not. He didn't know the rules and thats his fault. He only frustrated himself. If he wanted a tutorial game he should have asked or at least if hes asking for a friendly game announce that he is not completely familiar with all the rules.

Although since he is new it would be cool if you helped him out a bit with unit placement and such but in this situation he was definitely in the wrong for expecting too much out of the game.

It's never a case of what you do, but how you do it. An arrogant bastard all smug and superior who commit the same actions as an easy-going and kind person may be experienced vastly different.

It's impossible to say from simple text, but it's most probable that the imperial fist player's the one at fault - most likely having been spoon-fed anti-Eldar "propaganda" and was expecting an easy game.

In either case, with people unused to the game rules, regardless of game, I usually go into tutorial mode, explaining what options I have and some of the likely responses they could come up with which could screw my game up for me.
Yes, I literally remind my friends to pop smoke 'cause I'm going to shoot their rear armour the next turn.

Yes your most definitly a douch

To be fair, the first time I played against Eldar, I accused the player of making gak up too. You play a 'straightforward' army like IG, Marines, or Orks and you see this army where every unit has some special rule that means they can either ignore difficult terrain, always strike first, never get above a S8 hit on front or side armor, or any of the other rules, and it feels like rules are just getting pulled out of a hat. Eldar really is one of those armies where if you don't know exactly the extent of each unit's capabilities, you're probably going to lose against them.

When I play one of the kids in a friendly game at the store with an army they don't normally see, like Nids or IG, I typically ask them if they've played against my army before, and then, if not, I proceed to warn them about what exactly I'm going to do. Sometimes it helps, usually it doesn't, but at least then there are no hurt feelings due to misaligned expectations.

Except for this bit, where you accidentally cheated. The rules for turbo boosters forbid you from doing anything else that turn. That means if you cast fortune, you are forbidden from boosting because you have already done something. Whatever, 12+6 is still lots of movement, it just means you can't ever re roll 3+ cover

Really? Oops. I had never noticed this and no one has said otherwise to me. I will have to keep this at the forefront of my mind next time I play!

Sounds more like someone who hadn't played in a long time, probably even skipping an edition or two. Were all his models current? If he had things like metal Venerable dreadnoughts and such, I'd bet it was someone who got out of the hobby in 4th edition and just want to get back in.

His models were all 4-5th edition, all beautifully painted and he even handed me an army list which had been done on Army Builder. I actually thought he was a serious "hardcore" player compared to the rest of our group.

Well it seems we were both at fault, I guess I'll take two lists with me to my club; One with Seer Council and one for casuals!

Thanks everyone for all the help!

Iranna.

For playing by the rules (except casting Fortune and turbo-boosting)? Certainly not.

For signing forum posts? Certainly yes.

I've had a similar experience.
A player puts down a fully painted and converted army (in my case it was Howling Griffons).
I proceed to steamroller him.
Turns out it was pretty much his first ever game.

If someone puts down an army like that you expect a certain level of competency.

Or that they bought it on eBay.

Iranna wrote:Was I perhaps playing a bit too WAAC against someone who was quite obviously a newer player with the multi-assualting and using a rather hard-hitting list?

Absolutely Not. You were following the rules down to the last letter and playing correctly. He's the one who was a "douche" for a) complaining about rules that are clearly outlined in the rulebook and b) for leaving the game after a few minutes.

The only thing that should be considered "WAAC" is purposely bending the rules or outright breaking them.

Building a hard list? - Who cares. Why should you cripple yourself by not building a hard list?
Calling every time a rule is broken? - Thats a GOOD thing. Making sure you are playing by the rules is the responsibility of both players and should be enforced.

Definitely not a douche that said though, I always handicap myself vs. new players. Not many people will continue wanting to play a losing game/hobby.

Worked wonders I handicap myself, play fun lil lists and suddenly they bring in friends. We actually have a large teenage player base around 10 players at our store, which is starting to rival the older base.

That's a bummer the kid was a quitter.

My first 20 games with Tau were hard losses and hard fought draws against veteran players who curb stomped me into the ground. This game is about the challenge of playing the best you can against the best cats you can find.

There certainly was some cheating in your game and it was the cheating a kid did to himself by not finishing the game and learning.

Yes you are, but for other, unrelated reasons.

Anyways, seriousmode now:

In my Gaming Group, we have one rule(ok more than one, but that's not important): If this is your first game, we will stomp you as hard as we can(without cheating). If you do not ragequit and leave the store, we will explain what happened( what you did tactics-wise that lead to what we did tactics wise). If you have any questions during the game, we answer them. Pretty much how it boils down is if you still want to play after having your ass handed to you on a silver platter, then you are someone who will learn from your mistakes and keep playing. This is how I learned how to play 40k.This is how my friends taught me, and I have no problem with it. No one can expect to win their first game against someone who has been playing since the 80's. You may be able to, but the average new player won't. It's nothing wrong with you, other than lack of exp, but how you handle the loss is important.

Now I took my first game pretty well (lasted until the Phase Out[back in early 4th, late 3rd, I played Crons]) and I learned alot. Like Don't Charge Khorne Berzerkers with Necron Warriors.

Mahtamori wrote:It's never a case of what you do, but how you do it. An arrogant bastard all smug and superior who commit the same actions as an easy-going and kind person may be experienced vastly different.

It's impossible to say from simple text, but it's most probable that the imperial fist player's the one at fault - most likely having been spoon-fed anti-Eldar "propaganda" and was expecting an easy game.

In either case, with people unused to the game rules, regardless of game, I usually go into tutorial mode, explaining what options I have and some of the likely responses they could come up with which could screw my game up for me.
Yes, I literally remind my friends to pop smoke 'cause I'm going to shoot their rear armour the next turn.

I used to do this a lot with my regular opponent when I was teaching her how to play.

Unfortunately, she started winning. A lot.

This is only unfortunate because it's made my male brain switch into competition mode, and now I conceal my strategy somewhat when I think I'll have the advantage - and I'm often right. I've also begun to fudge things a little in my favour - not dice rolls though, as they are more sacred than Celestine's prayer book. But things where range is marginal, or blast templates covering models, where I'd give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent without question in friendly mode and have done so many times in the past, regardless of who's shooting or measuring... I've begun to give the benefit of the doubt to myself. And when I'm looking up rules, if I find what I'm looking for and it benefits myself, I stop reading at the end of that rule's sentence, even if there's more to the paragraph. If it benefits my opponent, I keep reading, looking for exceptions. And I don't like doing any of that. Not at all. But I can't help it when I'm in competition mode.

I still remind her to shoot with units she hasn't shot with - and is likely to want to shoot with, like her Space Marine Scout Snipers who camp an objective in cover but with good lines of fire - when she announces her assault phase. And of course if she forgets and I don't notice, and we only notice during the ensuing assault phase, I'll still remind her and we'll resolve their shooting then, so long as actions in the assault and shooting phases haven't rendered it too complicated to really backtrack.

I don't like it when my brain gets into competition mode while playing fun games, especially when my opponent is still learning the rules - even though it's been... Emperor's name, has it been two years already? ...two years since she started playing. Emperor's sacred undergarments, I'M still learning the rules after 10 years - though 2 editions have gone by since then, closing up on a 3rd. Why, just the other month, I was shocked to discover that there's no restrictions on who's attacking who based on whether they entered the combat that turn or a previous turn! Certainly made assaulting a multi-combat much more dangerous, cause I thought that if you were locked in combat from a previous turn, you wouldn't be able to attack units that just charged that turn! Imagine my shock to learn that while playing a Slaaneshi Daemons army! Anyways, I'm glad I accidentally corrected myself on that rule.

Wow, talk about a tangent. Enh, I've had worse.

I don't like getting into competition mode while playing friendly games. When my opponent is still learning the rules, it's worse, because I can easily fudge the rules a little without them noticing. I don't think I've done it yet, but there's always that possibility. When I'm in friendly mode, I'm a good, honorable opponent who'd probably get high sportsmanship scores while probably getting massacred every game - I don't know, because I don't play competitively. But when I'm in competition mode... I don't break anything, but I can bend it quite nicely.

Great, now I feel like a douche.

Edit: Oh, and for my first 3 years of WH40k, I think I only ever won games against my younger brother. Maybe an odd one here or there, but generally I got stomped pretty good. Kept coming back for more, and didn't ragequit. ^_^ Then of course I was too sick to continue gaming at my FLGS, so I started gaming at home against my brother. He stopped playing, and I played games against myself. Pretty boring. I'd constantly fudge rules to favour my preferred side, with no one to keep me honest. And then of course it was like, "Why am I playing this?" and I took a long break until I picked up a bunch of Sisters, and started griping at home about having no one to play with. And then, to my surprise, my mom volunteered. That was 2 years ago, and it's still a lot of fun when I'm not being a douche. ^_^

Can't believe anyone would quite after losing two whirlwinds...

Jackster wrote:Can't believe anyone would quite after losing two whirlwinds...

... and also failing to do any damage whatsoever with his whole army's firepower targeting the offending unit. Actually, I can sort of understand how that would make you feel as a first timer.

This isn't an either/or question. Both of you are at fault, but honestly, I think it is more on you.

I always, ALWAYS ask a player how long they've been playing for if I don't know them. It's a good way to break the ice if they're vets, and also gives you an idea of the atmosphere to expect. If it's someone's first game and it's at a club where the outcome doesn't matter too much, ALWAYS make it so it's a close game. If you can't put your ego aside for the sake of helping to bring in a new and potentially valuable member to your club, then get someone else to play them instead. What you've done is likely turned someone off from tabletop gaming forever. Congratulations.

Now some people say he should've taken it with a smile. That is true. But that is a mistake that everyone has made in moments of frustration and disappointment, and he would have felt a lot of both. It doesn't mean the guy's a complete donkey-cave whom you don't want in the hobby. But now you'll probably never know.

If the guy painted his own army to the standard you say, then I think it's a real shame his first game went like that. Even if he had stayed until the end he might never have returned after that experience. If possible, you should try to contact him to explain things.

Iranna wrote:Right so something came up at our gaming club tonight which quite astounded me:

Some new guy, around 15-16, asked me for a game. Me being me I jumped at the chance. I played my Seer Council Eldar and he his Imperial fists.

First thing comes up, I reserve my entire army beside the Seer Council due to the 2 whirlwinds hovering about and I was wary about him stealing the initiative and blowing my Guardians off the table. I elect to reserve them and we ended up having a 10 minute debate as to whether I could. However, he was under the assumption that I has elected to Deep Strike them instead of reserve, so no harm done; simple misunderstanding.

Secondly, I manage to turbo-boost the seer council right across the table and drop myself right in front of his whirlwinds and after rapid-firing around 30 bolters at me, firing 3 missiles at me and 4 lascannons I had failed 2 Armour/Cover saves, which I saved with Fortune. Next turn I announce my assualting one of his Whirlwinds and multi-assualt the other. He absolutely is appalled by this and demands to see the rulebook. I point out the paragraph on assualting multiple units and he reluctantly agrees (with green-steam billowing out his ears might I add.)

Then, I tell him I am S9 against his RA 10 and again, he disputes this. I show him the relevant entry for Witchblades in the rulebook and he simply says "I don't agree with this so I'm leaving" and packs up his stuff and leaves at 6:15. (the club itself starts at 6:00!)

Was I perhaps playing a bit too WAAC against someone who was quite obviously a newer player with the multi-assualting and using a rather hard-hitting list?

Iranna.

From what I'm gathering it seemed he was quite upset the marines aren't the bestest at everything. It didn't sound like you were running a cheesy list and played rather normally.

Generally, if you have to ask, then you probably are. If you play a new player with all the complex rules and assume that he understands everything you are doing, you are a WAAC player...

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

In my Gaming Group, we have one rule(ok more than one, but that's not important): If this is your first game, we will stomp you as hard as we can(without cheating). If you do not ragequit and leave the store, we will explain what happened

If someone did this to me instead of actually going through a game I didn't know the rules to instead of bothering to help me learn them I'd think they were a douche as has been said. Also I wouldn't ragequit, just plain lose interest, thank you for showing me this amazing game I no longer have an interest in and wander off thinking people who play it are attempting to make up for certain physical shortcomings.
I am going to assume you mean first game after learning the rules and having an army put together, then I'd say sure go play to win and have fun.

Can't believe anyone would quite after losing two whirlwinds...

The things is, he packed up before I even rolled to penetrate.

If you can't put your ego aside for the sake of helping to bring in a new and potentially valuable member to your club, then get someone else to play them instead. What you've done is likely turned someone off from tabletop gaming forever. Congratulations

Ahhh, so it's my ego which is so over-inflated that I must smash all competition without a care as to who it is? I think not. I asked around last night and this boy is a serial rage quitter. I suspect the reason that he seems new is because he's never actually completed a game.

Now some people say he should've taken it with a smile. That is true. But that is a mistake that everyone has made in moments of frustration and disappointment, and he would have felt a lot of both. It doesn't mean the guy's a complete donkey-cave whom you don't want in the hobby. But now you'll probably never know.

I didn't ask the boy for the game, he asked me. Turns out, he's actually older than me by 9 months! (16). Secondly, I can assure you I'm not as petty as to crush someone I don't like at a game of toy soldiers just so that they never come back.

Generally, if you have to ask, then you probably are. If you play a new player with all the complex rules and assume that he understands everything you are doing, you are a WAAC player...

So it's my fault for knowing the rules for multi-assualts and Witchblades?

Iranna.

Vermillion wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

In my Gaming Group, we have one rule(ok more than one, but that's not important): If this is your first game, we will stomp you as hard as we can(without cheating). If you do not ragequit and leave the store, we will explain what happened

I am going to assume you mean first game after learning the rules and having an army put together, then I'd say sure go play to win and have fun.

That is what I meant, though for the life of me I can't understand having a game without learning the rules and having an army. It's like trying to drive but not having a car or reading up on the State laws on driving or the owner's Manual on the Vehicle. After you get a vehicle(or an army) and read up on the laws and the owner's manual(or the rules) then you can begin driving around the school parking lot and practice parking to get used to knowing the vehicle's Dimensions( or play games and practice tactics to get used to your army's playstyle)

I'm using the Car Metaphor because I bought a Standard Truck last week and was learning how to drive stick. But that's how I went about both 40k and driving, I studied the rulebook and the codex( or the State driving handbook and the owner's manual), and after I felt comfortable with that, I began playing against other people, who didn't treat me like I needed to be coddled because it was my first game or I was new, and I learned. Now I didn't do that last part with the driving (IE, pull out on the highway and pray I don't stall the truck out) because if I got into a wreck with someone who has been driving since the 80's, that would be much worse than me losing a game of 40k against someone who has been playing since the 80s, but I did practice in the school parking lot until I felt comfortable with shifting gears and got used to driving a truck instead of a car.

I think somewhere in there, there is a point, but I got sidetracked.

Whipping out a seer council against a newbie isn't the friendliest thing to do.

Then again, there is supposed to be a part at the beginning of the game where people talk and say stuff like, "What does that do?"

Often followed by, "Oh gak that's crazy!"

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

In my Gaming Group, we have one rule(ok more than one, but that's not important): If this is your first game, we will stomp you as hard as we can(without cheating). If you do not ragequit and leave the store, we will explain what happened

I am going to assume you mean first game after learning the rules and having an army put together, then I'd say sure go play to win and have fun.

That is what I meant, though for the life of me I can't understand having a game without learning the rules and having an army. It's like trying to drive but not having a car or reading up on the State laws on driving or the owner's Manual on the Vehicle. After you get a vehicle(or an army) and read up on the laws and the owner's manual(or the rules) then you can begin driving around the school parking lot and practice parking to get used to knowing the vehicle's Dimensions( or play games and practice tactics to get used to your army's playstyle)

I'm using the Car Metaphor because I bought a Standard Truck last week and was learning how to drive stick. But that's how I went about both 40k and driving, I studied the rulebook and the codex( or the State driving handbook and the owner's manual), and after I felt comfortable with that, I began playing against other people, who didn't treat me like I needed to be coddled because it was my first game or I was new, and I learned. Now I didn't do that last with the driving (IE, pull out on the highway and pray I don't stall the truck out) because if I got into a wreck with someone who has been driving since the 80's, that would be much worse than me losing a game of 40k against someone who has been playing since the 80s, but I did practice in the school parking lot until I felt comfortable with shifting gears and got used to driving a truck instead of a car.

I think somewhere in there, there is a point, but I got sidetracked.

That makes a lot of sense. ^_^

When I started playing though, I had a single squad of Dire Avengers. This was because I was 13, and outside of Christmas and birthday presents, I had maybe 10 dollars a month in allowance. So it took me over 3 months to save up enough for that box of Dire Avengers, but it was worth it. To make a full and complete army would have taken me years, and the rulebook seemed impossibly expensive, and would have taken me the better part of a year to get.

I had friends who taught me to play despite my lack of a complete army. I had to ask every time what I needed to wound and hit at first, because I didn't have the rulebook so I didn't have the charts. Eventually someone brought in the reference cards, and I studied them and learned them. And I lost every game, even though we'd play 4-6 player multi-side games so it didn't matter as much that I didn't have a complete or even legal army. They didn't gang up on me, which was nice, because it let me get to play longer, which was fun, win or lose. [Mostly lose.]

I learned the game through playing, which was probably why I lost a lot. But I was happy just to play, and I kept learning and coming back for more. That's one thing I like about myself. I strive to improve myself if I can.

Jackster wrote:Can't believe anyone would use two whirlwinds...

Fixed that for you.

If it's turn 1, and I'm getting an Alpha Strike because of a bunch of rules my opponent obviously didn't know about, I think it's good for both of us if I offer to start the game from the top of Turn 1 again, and let him/her change deployment and strategy and whatnot to deal with my now-revealed capabilities.

I'm not that interested in playing a game I've basically won on Turn 1, and certainly not if my opponent's unhappy with it.

Iranna wrote:

If you can't put your ego aside for the sake of helping to bring in a new and potentially valuable member to your club, then get someone else to play them instead. What you've done is likely turned someone off from tabletop gaming forever. Congratulations

Ahhh, so it's my ego which is so over-inflated that I must smash all competition without a care as to who it is? I think not. I asked around last night and this boy is a serial rage quitter. I suspect the reason that he seems new is because he's never actually completed a game.
Iranna.

Hindsight. In your first post, all you said was that he was obviously new and had a really nice looking army, not to mention that he also obviously had an unoptimised list. Based off of that information, you wouldn't go crush the guy. The fact he really is a jerk may make you feel better now but it doesn't change the fact that relentlessly crushing noobs is poor form.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

In my Gaming Group, we have one rule(ok more than one, but that's not important): If this is your first game, we will stomp you as hard as we can(without cheating). If you do not ragequit and leave the store, we will explain what happened

I am going to assume you mean first game after learning the rules and having an army put together, then I'd say sure go play to win and have fun.

That is what I meant, though for the life of me I can't understand having a game without learning the rules and having an army. It's like trying to drive but not having a car or reading up on the State laws on driving or the owner's Manual on the Vehicle. After you get a vehicle(or an army) and read up on the laws and the owner's manual(or the rules) then you can begin driving around the school parking lot and practice parking to get used to knowing the vehicle's Dimensions( or play games and practice tactics to get used to your army's playstyle)

I'm using the Car Metaphor because I bought a Standard Truck last week and was learning how to drive stick. But that's how I went about both 40k and driving, I studied the rulebook and the codex( or the State driving handbook and the owner's manual), and after I felt comfortable with that, I began playing against other people, who didn't treat me like I needed to be coddled because it was my first game or I was new, and I learned. Now I didn't do that last part with the driving (IE, pull out on the highway and pray I don't stall the truck out) because if I got into a wreck with someone who has been driving since the 80's, that would be much worse than me losing a game of 40k against someone who has been playing since the 80s, but I did practice in the school parking lot until I felt comfortable with shifting gears and got used to driving a truck instead of a car.

I think somewhere in there, there is a point, but I got sidetracked.

My point was that it sounded like totally new never had a game before players. Also no army, erm, well black reach demo games? Games at FLGS/clubs others are playing and the person shows an interest in. Plus that amount of cash investment before knowing you would like it while it's a store owners dream, it hopefully rarely happens with people joining in demo games etc.
I can't use a car comparison for this parable so here it is in it's unchanged glory;
A few years back at our club we had a problem. One guy who offered to help us run games etc gave a guy a chance to play battletech. Now our game runner knew the rules inside out, and playing against other people who knew it, yeah he was competitive but then so were other people. This game was to show the new player the basics, see if the kid liked the game that kind of thing. Rest of us are off at our own games or doing whatever. The battletech guy goes all out stomping over the poor kid not explaining a thing. Not a good scenario as it ended up we never saw the kid again. Mind you, someone else ran games from that point on instead.
Problem is there are this sort of people out there, we saw a few at my friends FLGS too many times.

augustus5 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Can't believe anyone would use two whirlwinds...

Fixed that for you.

You took the words right out of my mouth sir!

Hindsight. In your first post, all you said was that he was obviously new and had a really nice looking army, not to mention that he also obviously had an unoptimised list. Based off of that information, you wouldn't go crush the guy. The fact he really is a jerk may make you feel better now but it doesn't change the fact that relentlessly crushing noobs is poor form.

Ahh but sir, you miss my point. I had done absolutely no damage to him before he left. Ergo, I hadn't even wafted him with a feather, never mind crushed him.

Iranna.

Honestly, I dont respect people who quit the game just because it doesnt go the way the wanted.
You are certainly not at fault. Playing Eldar hardly makes you a power gamer.

Bobakos wrote:If you cant win, then you can lose gracefully. Thats my motto...

This is something that a lot of players I know need and I have yet to even come close to mastering. I'd rather learn to lose gracefully than just get better at the game. lol

I have had games where I'm trying to play a fun list against someone who brought their WAAC list (specifically thinking about a game where Long Fangs wrecked 2 of my Valks and my Colusses on Turn 1) and wanted to pack up and quit right then. In that example I kept playing and ended up pulling off a tie!