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I don't even play Grey Knights, in fact, I don't happen to believe they're even close to OP compared to many of the more solid codices out there.

I'm not quite sure why people feel the need to attack me personally when all I'm trying to do is get the rules down solid.

2 (hypothetical) questions, supposing you could mishap the mishap..
1) Who would roll, you or your opponent?
2) Who gets to place the unit if a 3 or 4 is rolled again?

The owning player never changes, nor does the opponent. It would be played the same.

Good job it isnt another deepstrike, meaning no mishap is possible

placed in a valid deepstrike formation /= deploying via deepstrike

But a valid deepstrike formation cannot be within the warpquake range as according to warp quake you can never deepstrike within that range without causing a mishap.
I know that's an interpretation of the rules, but I believe it makes sense and is correct.

Well, why didn't you state that in the first place instead of going on about impassable terrain?

I wish you would actually look at a situation before making a decision, nosferatu1001, for once rather than first taking a position on it and then moving from rule interpretation to rule interpretation until you achieve your aim; it really does not lead to an open rules discussion. You really have to watch your condescension.

On the subject of deep strike, I still feel like it could be argued that this entire process is the unit entering from deep strike, and until they are finally placed, they continue to be. How does one go about separating the 'placed in deep strike formation' from the rest of the deep strike? Where does it say you can only mishap once per turn?

That would be a problem, if you were still Deepstriking at that point. Youre not, meaning you cannot Mishap.

You are being placed in a DS FORMATION, you are not Deep Striking

The placement of a deepstrike unit isn't the same as the unit actually deepstriking.

If you wanna get really RAW out the wazoo about it, from memory it states that warp quake triggers after the scatter dice are rolled and the scatter dice aren't rolled for the mishap placement, therefor it doesn't trigger.

So, by your definition, BlueDagger, a Teleport Homer would cancel out Warpquake, since scatter dice are never rolled in that situation?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goal of this thread: What I'm really trying to determine is if this is a cut-and-dry situation, or if this is just another one of those situations left muddy and without a clear explanation.

Look, I play GK's and I don't think they're that over powered. As to the answer to this question, since when they mishap you place the enemy unit wherever you want on the table, they are NOT deep striking again. Therefore no double warpquake and no double mishap, end of story.

How is trying to making the unit repeatedly risk killing themselves not trying to break the system for personal gain you have a 66% chance of either killing the unit outright or getting a free roll to kill the unit if it doesn't die.

helgrenze wrote:Placing the unit back in the Warpquake could also be interpreted as rerolling the mishap, which is basically what you would be doing.
Since there is nothing in the warpquake entry that allows for such a reroll......
I would have to say no.

This. If you could place a unit back into warpquake it would not ever be fair to another opponant because you could just perpetually put the same unit into mishap until it goes back into reserve or is destroyed. I dont think this was the intention for the rule. Also I agree with placing a unit that deepstrikes is not the same as deepstriking.

Fearspect - the goal was achieved a page ago. Placed in a valid deepstrike formation /= deep striking. When you mishap and place them, they are not deepstriking again, but being placed.

No double mishap is possible from ANY source.

nosferatu1001 wrote:GK - excpet you are "placed ...in a valid deepstrike formation"

This does NOT say that you are deep striking, merely being placed in a valid deepstrike formation

I would say the rules don't seem to agree with this 100 percent, as there is a part of the rule that is totally useless. But then again, it's gw, what's not to expect?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Connor - at 4ppm those force weapons and SB arent "free", by any means

I wouldn't normally even feel the need to respond, but your statement is so glaringly wrong, I'll chime back in. Even though it is off topic.

It is a fact that they don't have to buy them as upgrades, they are Free for the price of the model. Duh. Where are you getting 4ppm?

Even then... lets compare how much "free" costs.

Strike Squad Member: 20 Points = 1 Grey Knight: Standard Equipment: Power armor, Force Sword, Storm Bolter, Krak / Frag AND Psyk-Out Grenades. (20 Points Per Model)

Regular Space Marine TAC Sergeant (Simply used because he is the only upgradable model for the unit) : 18 Points = Standard Equipment: Power Armor, Bolter/Bolt Pistol. Frag and Krak Grenades.

Seriously...if you want to have a banal/pointless discussion? Ok, well lets compare apples to apples. Oh wait we can't because...

1) Tac Sarge's Dont have the ability to have psychic powers. - So well, priceless.
2) Tac Sarge's can't have Force Weapons, so we will spend 10 points and give him 1/2 the weapon in the form of a powersword. Price: 28 points.
3) Tac Sarge's can have a Storm bolter, so lets spend 10 points on that. Price: 38 Points.
4) Tac Sarge's can't have Psykout grenades, so we will have to go with the only other upgrade we can get for cheap... Melta 5 points - Price: 43 Points.

So we spend more than double the points and get about 1/2 to 2/3 rds of the value in upgrades.... sigh.

So if you were unable to infer from my statement the obvious "free" can you at least understand this?

SO a strike squad member costs 20 ppm, a normal marine costs 16ppm, so everything they get costs 4ppm

BY DEFINITION everything they get in addition to a tac marine has COST them the difference.

And, even if you dont want the upgrades - you have to pay for them anyway. If you cant understand the downside in THAT< then you reaslly shouldnt be in this discussion.

Yeah... it's very wrong, but I went to PM to discuss at as this can spiral out of control quickly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:GK - excpet you are "placed ...in a valid deepstrike formation"

This does NOT say that you are deep striking, merely being placed in a valid deepstrike formation

That's not what the rule says. Let's look at it again:

"Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for deep striking units!), in a valid deep strike formation, but without rolling for scatter" BGB p. 95.

Let's break that down one piece at a time.

"deploy the unit anywhere on the table" - we're deploying the unit, not just placing the unit. That's a significant distinction, because the warp quake rule affects "any enemy unit deploying by Deep Strike within 12" of the squad" (Codex: Grey Knights p. 28).

"including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for deep striking units!" - the only way this language makes sense in this rule is if a mishap deployment is a deep strike deployment.

"in a valid deep strike formation" - this strongly suggests that the unit is deep striking, otherwise why worry about a valid deep strike formation?

"but without rolling for scatter" - why tell us we don't need to roll for scatter? Because this is a deep strike, and deep striking units must roll for scatter. No other form of deployment requires a scatter roll, so if this weren't a deep strike, this language wouldn't need to be here. We'd already know not to roll for scatter. But here it is.

Let's also remember that deep strike mishaps are a subsection of the Deep Strike rules. See BGB p. 95. It's not a separate rule.

A mishap deployment is a deep strike deployment. Thus, if it happens within the Warp Quake zone, it triggers the effect. Causing another mishap roll is clearly not an impermissible reroll of a reroll because this is an entirely new deployment causing an entirely new roll on the mishap table. We're not re-rolling anything.

Hope this helps!
-GK

Hmm, just thought of something.

Sometimes the top of impassable terrain is deemed between opponents to be normal terrain, the sides are very steep or something, but the top is nice and smooth for deployment of static heavy weapons or skimmers.

Would be quite funny to warpquake mishap a footslogging unit on top where they would be stranded for the rest of the game.

GK - no, it *suggests* it is a DS deployment, but it is NOT a DS deployment - you are simply being deployed in a DS deployment. Additionally your evidence is, knowing GWs ability to write redundant rules (e.g. Bikes and ID), evidence of redundancy at best.

You need to find more assertive rules than this, otherwise it is what it says it is - deployment in a DS formation, but not actual DS any longer

Fearspect wrote:I don't even play Grey Knights, in fact, I don't happen to believe they're even close to OP compared to many of the more solid codices out there.

I'm not quite sure why people feel the need to attack me personally when all I'm trying to do is get the rules down solid.

'Not even close to OP' lol compared to what SW and IG? Some of the BA builds? Because GK gak all over jump lists and shred most MEQ mech lists. And those are just the weaker lists that feature GKs; Henchmen lists just blow everything out of the water.

So, in essence, what the people that advocate the triggering of the effect is:

If it mishaps and I gain control of it, I am going to keep placing it in the same spot until I get a roll that puts it into reserves or kills it?

Apparently so.

And apparently you never roll for dangerous terrain on a 3-4 result from a 'mishap'.

Stops 3 - 4 being a broken results, so thats all good.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stops 3 - 4 being a broken results, so thats all good.

Only in the context of warp quake. I haven't noticed this particular mishap result being an issue before it.

Prior to warp quake, have you always played that a 3-4 result on the mishap table would not trigger a dangerous terrain test if the unit in question were placed in difficult terrain?

I would bet that 99% of players on these forums never played that way.

No, also for placing them within 1" of an enemy unit, as that would also trigger a mishap if it were truly deepstriking

So if the unit isn't deepstriking, does it still count as deepstriking
IE can't assault?

rigeld2 wrote:So if the unit isn't deepstriking, does it still count as deepstriking
IE can't assault?

No, since they were Deep Striking in the movement phase and suffered a mishap.

P.95 "In that turns assault phase, however, these units may not launch an assault."

"GK - no, it *suggests* it is a DS deployment, but it is NOT a DS deployment - you are simply being deployed in a DS deployment. Additionally your evidence is, knowing GWs ability to write redundant rules (e.g. Bikes and ID), evidence of redundancy at best. You need to find more assertive rules than this, otherwise it is what it says it is - deployment in a DS formation, but not actual DS any longer "
-Nosferatu1001

As I've explained above, every piece of the "Misplaced" result language indicates that it is a deep strike deployment that your opponent controls. I've also pointed out that the mishap rule is a subsection of the deep strike rule. You have zero language which indicates it's not a deep strike. Which of us needs more evidence again?

Also realize the absurd results that come along with saying a "misplaced" deployment isn't a deep strike:
1. the unit can assault since it didn't arrive by deep strike
2. the unit doesn't have to take dangerous terrain tests because it didn't arrive by deep strike
3. the unit doesn't count as moving because it didn't arrive by deep strike and can move normally in the movement phase

Obviously none of those assertions are correct interpretations of the rules.

You're trying to argue that a deployment which occurs as the result of a deep strike, in a deep strike formation, and following the rules for deep strike... isn't a deep strike. Come on. You know perfectly well that doesn't hold water. A "misplaced deployment" is a deep strike deployment, therefore it can trigger warp quake.

Hope this helps!
-GK