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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I don't understand why people are so butthurt about questioning rules... It doesn't make you a poor sport for asking how a rule works or discussing a rule difference... it is *HOW* you handle yourself when doing so which does it.

Simple things like:
*Accepting the result of a 4+
*Accepting a judge's ruling
*Being a man (or woman) and actually admitting if you are wrong.

These are all fine and in no way hurts your sportsmanship in any way with most people.

It is the people who argue, refuse to accept a 4+ because they know they are right, fight with the judge then piss and moan because they didn't get their way who are the poor sports. I suspect some people can't tell the difference... Sports scores usually work as intended... If you get low scores in my experience you probably deserve them.

My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
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Made in gb
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






You can point out that bolters are only range 24 in black and white but if the guy thought that they were 30 and you corrected him chances are he's gonna think you were a rules lawyer.
   
Made in au
Malicious Mutant Scum





Brisbane, AUS

they may be loosing(90% nvr happens)

Means i loose.

Wont you let me be your token cat lady??
~ 3.5k points

~ 500pts 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





United States

personally when I go to torties I usually lose, but I go to play and learn and have fun. I think that as long as you are friendly you should be able to get those sportsmanship marks. I do think that rule questioning and other such things can lower your marks, but if you are nice about, and don't come off as a crazy rule hog you should be fine.

again this is all assuming you are playing friendly people rather than TFG

"Reality is, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"
-Philip K. Dick

Constant Lurker, Slowly getting back into modelling! Someday a P&M Blog link will lurk here! 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Edited...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/06 15:59:32


DQ:70+S++G+M-B+I+Pw40k93+ID++A+/eWD156R++T(T)DM++


 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Hell Hole Washington

This is why i love to see comp scoring in tournis. Instead of the toughest list possible just winning outright, it requires so me strategy.

Make your list tough enough to win but not so tough that it feels like an ard boys list.
Once victory is assured, feed your opponent some units through "mistakes".
Bemoan your foes bad die rolls in a gentle fashion so that they never feel that your rooting against them.
Be freindly. THIS is most important. make it feel like a freindly match. I had one opponent at a major tourni hi-five me after my scout sniper killed his demon prince in melee and won the match for me. He was an amazing foe who i will never forget for their genuine good sportsmanship.
Dont run up the score when victory is assured. Just whipping your foes butt when your already going to win is not going to earn any freinds.

Pestilence Provides.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Play fairly with your opponent, be polite, and be mindful of what you say (try not to head into potentially inflammatory territory).

You have no control over what the other player marks down for your sportsman score, so just try to act in a manner that your mother would be proud of. You will run into people who mark you down because you proved them wrong on a ruling, because you beat them, or because they are chipmunking (intentionally marking others low to improve their own chances of winning), or because of any number of perceived possible slights.

Dont' focus on winning Best Sportsman, just focus on being a decent human being, and you will have done all you can to improve your odds.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

*laughing*

OP, welcome to my life.

I'm probably going to regret everything I'm about to type, but....it is what it is. I'm going to give you a little backstory in hopes that you can relate - but this is what's happened to me, how it happened, and what I've done to overcome it.

I win pretty consistently, both at the local and national level. I've suffered from poor sportsmanship scores at a few events, and some of those have been scandalous in their circles. When I first started playing 40k, at my first tournament ever, I got zeroed out for sportsmanship in all three of my games with my Orks. My first opponent thought that Ghazghkull Thraka was too powerful to bring to a tournament - he was running full terminators (on foot, in cover, stationary most of the game in a Capture and Control game....lol), and zeroed me out for sportsmanship. My second opponent zeroed me out because he thought I was cheating by using a boarding plank on an ork trukk to swing at a dreadnought with the nob leading the boyz inside the trukk. We called a judge over, who ruled in my favor, but he maintained that I cheated. My third game was against a pretty famous player in Florida - and he narrowly won. Deployment was a scattered randomization across the entire board (extremely unfavorable to Orks, even before I knew what a KFF did and started using one). Terrain was set up by players each game, and he took some of the felt (for forests) that I was putting on the table off again, and told me it was too big. I'll freely admit that I didn't know what Ghazghkull's Slow and Purposeful rule was, and he had to remind me....but he didn't tell me that Ghazghkull had Move through Cover either. I didn't make a fuss during the game, but afterwards I broke open the rulebook in combination with utilizing YMDC here to get answers to questions we had during the game, and posted on their forums with a breakdown of the rules issues we had during the game.

Open war broke out, with the community there polarizing against me. My "reputation" as a bad sportsman (and an outsider as I was new to the game) started spreading from the lips of the folks at the store there.

Fast forward to 'Ard Boyz semi-finals - my first time there, and I'm in North Carolina. My first game is against another very well known gamer from the Southeast...and the game is atrocious. I'll spare the details, but for the first time ever, I picked up my models from the table, packed up and left - I was winning the game, in part because of Eldrad failing fortune (and a reroll) at the beginning, leaving Ghazghkull free to ravage them, and because of my advantageous assault positioning. I quit the game when he started picking up his models during my assault moves and repositioning them on the board, away from me, prattling "Fine, assault me now." It wasn't even 40k anymore, and I had no idea what to do, and was too tired to even want to fight. My "reputation" gets cemented amongst his friends and their small forums and yahoo user groups.

I'm stubborn. Over the next two years, I continually get hammered at local events. Not losing....I win virtually everything - but creating animosity with my winning streak. I've learned much about 40k now, am quite adept on the rules, and I trot through virtually every tournament at every store within a 4 hour radius undefeated. I rarely fail to table an opponent. I start posting Ork advice based on my own success here on Dakka, and get shouted down as a "stupid noob" who is a "big fish in a little pond" and that my army lists "couldn't compete against decent players." I take this as a sign to look for a larger pond and learn what a GT is. I start looking for GTs within travelling distance, and learn that there's going to be one in Raleigh...not so far from me. Local tournaments cost $5-10 to enter, and this one has a comparatively larger entry fee....$50-$60. I'm curious why that is, so get ahold of the organizer asking about the entry fee, what prize support is.....turns out that he's a native Floridian (Green Blow Fly, now permanently banned from Dakka), and he knows who I am and my reputation, and he's quite hostile. Tells me that prize support is none of my business, and that GT participants should pay their entry fee and be grateful to get to participate, and that winning is prize enough.

That's a new concept to me, and I don't agree....but I'm new to the GT idea, so I take the dispute public here on Dakka to ask for community input on whether I'm out of line or not. My reputation as a troublemaker spreads.

Meanwhile, at the local level, I'm contemplating the idea of a "small pond, big fish" thing, and start trying to help locals improve their gaming after tournament gaming. The locals recoil in animosity that I would dare offer help. After winning several successive tournaments back-to-back, defeating the "local champion" in North Carolina (he's also a store employee), I'm asked not to return to the store. Another shop that freshly opened in Raleigh announces that it will start hosting a league, and I call to enroll my wife and I; she's learning to play Orks fairly well, and has not lost a game against any of the locals either. The store owner (Hangar 8 Hobbies) tells me that while I'm welcome to shop there and play games, I'm not welcome in their league or any tournaments because I'll scare new players away.

My friends encourage me to tone down my armies, and play less competitively....folks on Dakka do the same. I've always been competitive, and I have trouble with the idea of competing half-heartedly. I'd much rather try helping other folks improve to my level....it's not that hard. Meanwhile, the anti-Dash folks in the Southeast (especially the aforementioned TO) are crowing on their blogs and forums that I've been banned from two stores, proving that I'm a real douchebag. No one around the country knows who I am, but there's plenty of people (most whom have never met me) swearing up and down that I'm a serious jerk, and unfun to play against.

Fast forward again...I get a massive promotion at work to a position back in Jacksonville, FL - where I'd started playing 40k in the first place. The store I played at and enjoyed friends at has closed because the owner is in Afghanistan, and he plans on re-opening another store when he returns, but that isn't in the forseeable future. The store where I attended that first disastrous tournament has closed as well, leaving two stores in the area to pick up the slack. Suncoast Games and Borderlands. Borderlands is across town some distance, and Suncoast is close by, but small. My return to Jacksonville and first apperance at the store (in a suit and tie, during lunch) start nasty things being said in the local forums. I post an introduction in their forums, attempting to explain what's happened and bury the hatchet - I take an apologetic tone, and tread very carefully about looking to fit in and make new friends. I'm met with contempt and derision.

My own friends from the area don't go to either of the game stores because of the poisonous nature of the "locals," so I dedicate a room in my house to 40k, set up tables, get terrain, and we start gaming there, or at one of their houses. When I'm at one of the stores, if I meet someone nice, I grab their contact information so that I can look them up and invite them over to play - Jacksonville, FL is really hot, and the air conditioning at Suncoast doesn't work - so playing at one of our houses is nicer anyway.

The first tournament is approaching at the local store, Suncoast. The store owner has taken a liking to me - I attended 'Ard Boyz preliminaries there shortly before moving back there a month or two prior, and had stopped into the store the night before to introduce myself, and had subsequently helped them set up tables, and got to know them a bit. This first tournament that I planned on attending was a 1500 points "No whining, no crying, beatdown" tournament - single elimination, no holds barred, last man standing event. I showed up with 1500 points of Dark Eldar and proceeded to win. Hard. My first opponent was playing Space Wolves on foot. He put his entire army in a single piece of terrain. The new DE codex was still a rumour, and disintegrators were still STR7 AP2 small blast. He conceded at the bottom of my first turn.

The tournament proceeded, and the last round was against a genuinely good guy - who would later become a good friend and frequent visitor to our 40k house parties. He was a tough cookie to beat, but I did, and won. The locals were furious. How DARE I come in with a beatstick army? Jacksonville is a place for gentle armies, fluffy players, and my kind of gaming has no place there. Half my opponents declared on their forums that they never wanted to play me again. One of the players announced that if if he had his way, I'd never be allowed to compete in a tournament again. Did I mention I was stubborn? I remain courteous and polite.

Fast forward to the next tournament. The previously mentioned player is now the TO, and the tournament is a 2,000 point attrition tournament. IE, what you lose stays dead. He passes out scenarios, and pairs himself against me in the first round - telling me that no one else wants to play against me. I wish I had video-taped the entire thing. Our game is a mish-mash of 3rd-5th edition rules, with an Attacker/Defender scenario, with the attacker going first. I show him the DE codex, which says that in any attack/defend scenario, DE are always the attacker. He announces to the store that he's changing the scenario, that all DEFENDERS will go first. The screnario itself is one objective, in the middle of the table. Deployment zone is defender deploying in the middle, and attacker deploying on either flank (short board edge). To keep the tournament going, the scenarios also call for games to stop at the end of the game turn when one of the players has lost 700 points. He deploys, I reserve, and we start. He cheats like a mofo. Extra inches...not like .5" extras, but like 2-3" extras. Extra dice. Extra shots. Extra attacks. I say nothing. I don't have to say anything, because he's moving out from the center towards my flanks - where I'm going to be coming in. And every inch he moves away from the center is one less inch I need to cross to alpha-strike him. Turn two sees me move onto the board with a good chunk of my army, and I hit him hard. I killed 698 points out of the 700 required and leave him incredibly crippled. Turn three he mostly does nothing, and on my turn three...he announces another change. When one player reaches 700 points, the game stops instantly. IE, I was going to hurt him hard....far beyond 700 points. For our game, all this meant is that I killed one model and our game ended.

On EVERY OTHER TABLE, that meant that the player who went second auto-lost, because they never got a turn. The player going first gets to shoot and assault first, and hit 700 before the second player.

I won this tournament as well - as gracefully as I could. I pulled him off to the side afterwards and offered him my services to help write missions, because there was loud complaints from folks after the first game and the unfairness of it. He proceeded to scream at me - that I had no business trying to tell him how to run his tournaments, and that he plans on seeing that I never game in the store again.

I have a word with the owner later about my misgivings, and they tell me that they're going to start rotating TOs around, and that I'm welcome to host an event. I sign up to host a tournament, and also talk to them about an idea I've been having. My only wish is to see folks get more competitive, and the best way to do it is to reward them for it. I like the owners, and want to call the store home (nowhere else to go) so I tell them about my idea of a "Store Championship." I don't spend a lot of money there because I have several armies - most of them have been "free" because of tournament winnings and store credit. So I want them to declare me the store champion, and let people challenge me. Anyone who spends $50 in the store gets a challenge token. They use it to play against me, and anyone who wins gets a free battleforce box. I'd pay for it myself. Buy $50 of merchandise in the store, get a pass at me, and if you win....get a free battleforce box. In my eyes, the store wins because they made money. Players win for a free shot at loot. And I win because it will increase competition locally. The owner loved it.

What actually happened: The locals went ballistic. How DARE I declare that I'm better than they are? What RIGHT do I have to call myself "Store Champion?" The locals light up their local forums with more vitriol against me, and they start calling the store and telling the owner that they're going to boycott the store if I'm allowed to play there. And...boom. I'm uninvited to another store. A few weeks later, a couple of my friends and I want to play a game, and the other store in town (across town) is closer to them than driving to my house, so I call Borderlands to reserve a table. The owner asks what name to put on the reservation, and when he hears my name, says "Nothing personal, but I don't want you in my store." Poison is a horrible thing.

Shortly before leaving Florida and moving to Louisiana, three of us went to the store unannounced for a game. The owner (who didn't know my face, just my name), saw that I was playing Dark Eldar and asked if I was Justin Hilderbrandt. I told him no, that my name was Chris. He said, "Oh, ok." We played. Other players admired our game. Asked us rules questions. Ah...anonymity. ><

Moving to Louisiana after two bad experiences in two locations, my experience has been the opposite. And here's where we're going to get to the meat of my advice. My current situation (at the local level) is fantastic...with a bit of initial help (which I'll explain), and I've been going to GTs all year, mostly to good experiences, only a couple nasty little buggers giving me bad sportsmanship votes (Example: Your army is too strong, and unfun to play against...bad game vote...), but mostly positive, capped off by winning Best Sportsman at the Nova Open in Washington D.C., the largest (or second after Adepticon?) GT in the country. Folks who know my name but have never met me are always telling me that I'm nothing like what they've heard. Sometimes I hear that I was the best game they've ever played (tactically) and that they learned so much. I've been to other locations (I played in most of the Atlanta circuit championship tournaments, won the championship, and haven't left any bad memories behind)

Locally, I'm well-known and (I think) well-liked at the stores. Here's the crux of it. I hate to call it "Gaming Sportsmanship" or "Gaming friendship" but I'm being blunt and honest here, as always.

When I first moved here, and went to my first tournaments at stores amongst complete strangers, I went early. I made a point of meeting the other gamers. I looked at their armies, complimented paint jobs, asked questions...

During games, I was as overly friendly. I made jokes at my own expense. I highlighted every success they had on the field, and every turn of misfortune that I had. When I play a game and land 2/27 shots with dark lances, only kill one vehicle the whole game against a Mechanized BA army....the memory of the game should be that I won because I got incredibly lucky at the end, not for any other reason.

After games, I made special effort to compliment any brilliant moves my opponent made, or commiserate with them on losing. Instead of offering advice, I'd ask a question or two, like "Anything you would have done differently?" I like to hear what could have been, and what might have happened had things changed - doing so right after the game is almost like getting a second game in for free. Deployment and movement changes, but presume the same dice were rolled, and the same results on them.

At the end of the tournament, I passed on whatever prizes I got to whomever came in last place - something I've done everywhere local and GT for quite some time now...because I truly don't need more 40k stuff.

Afterwards, I paid a visit to the local store forums to introduce myself formally....to thank the locals for having me, for being such a great crowd to play with, for giving me some great games...and looking forward to trying my luck there again.

Today, I don't have to do any of those things anymore....because the folks are genuinely my friends, and I genuinely like them. Instead of being a hostile outsider, we get along - at multiple stores with different crowds. Some of the guys who ask me for advice on their armies, and I give it if I can. I'm grateful for the fresh start locally. There was some growing animosity at one of the stores by some of the "veteran" players that I kept winning, but some of the others apparently dispelled it by challenging them to get off their asses and play better. And true to it, I've been seeing increasingly competitive lists. Many of them are specifically tailored to fight my Dark Eldar, but I don't mind - those are the best games of all. When all the las/plas come off the razorbacks and get replaced by Assault Cannons and heavy bolters, and the number of Psyflemen in the GK lists keep growing exponentially, you know it's going to be a tough battle.

There's an old army saying, "Fake it till' you make it" talking about motivation. If you fake motivation long enough while under physical or mental duress, you'll eventually be motivated. Believe it or not, it's true.

I would feel dishonest toning my games down to try making them closer. My buddy Hulksmash is a master of it, and good enough that people don't know that he does it. He gets great sportsmanship scores because he can make a close game out of pitting his Imperator Titan against a lone longfang without it being obvious. So that's not me.

But holding to the "fake it till you make it"....it works. I played extra-nice, I was super-chummy and friendly....until I didn't have to be anymore because the danger of being a "hostile outsider winning all our stuff" passed.

At GTs with relevant scoring, I work extra hard. Buy a beer for an opponent, offer a snack, be as easy-going as possible during a game - at this stage in my career I'll let small "cheats" and mistakes go. I won't press on rules. If someone is moving 6.5" or 7" instead of six....I'll let them, because I've learned that if you need to cheat to win, you're not good enough to win anyway, so it doesn't matter. It's true. Well, mostly true. 95% of the time true. I did recently lose a game to a guy cheating so badly that the judge at our table was correcting literally every movement, every shot, disallowing him to double-shoot units, move units again during the same turn...to the point where when I went to talk to the TO afterwards, the judge told him "Whatever he tells you is true, and I'll back him on it." I hadn't said a word to my opponent; was fighting to keep my mouth shut.

The local douches in my previous locations still troll about me, and recently latched onto a Blood of Kittens article bashing me, but that's damning in itself. Anyone who will read any of the drama on Blood of Kitttens and swear by it is laughable themselves. But the rest of the furor has died away. I've gotten around the country as much as possible, met as many gamers as possible, and there's enough people out there who know me and have met me that when someone starts crap, they pretty much get shut down without me having to get involved. I don't really post on Dakka anymore because I get special moderator attention - attacks are made against me freely, but defending myself usually gets me a lengthy suspension for saying a bad word (and yes, I even have e-mails from moderators about the special attention I get).

That might sound like a lifetime of 40k, but it's been three years since I first picked up dice and started the hobby. I'm not sure exactly what I would tell you for advice - I was hoping my story and how I coped with it might help you find something worth emulating without just dropping a blanket statement about "Gaming Sportsmanship." Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of folks out there who share my mindset, and don't need to be gamed for a good sportsmanship score. But in your local group, be overly friendly. Be generous. Don't do anything that might make you stand out as potentially "arrogant." Be OVERLY humble. Work your tail off at it, because this hobby is uniquely full of thin-skinned folks....and whether someone says they're just playing for fun or not....they still want to win.

Eventually it will become natural, or you won't have to anymore.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/06 18:53:56


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I nearly always get perfect sportsmanship marks at tournaments, as does most of the crew I travel with. It really boils down to three simple things. Treat others as you want to be treated. Know when to call off the dogs. Be equally pleasant in victory and defeat.

First one is simple and anyone who is not a selfish jerk should be able to master it.

Second one is tricky, because you don't want to lose battle points or risk the game. However, if you are kicking a guys teeth in, theres no reason to argue over 1/4" measurements and avoid combats that have no impact on the victory conditions. It lets the other guy save some pride and you get to have little side battles that may be entertaining to both players.

Third one is the hardest, but the most crucial. A lot of guys are jerks when they lose, and that can be rationalized. The real test of a sportsman is their attitude when they win. Some thoughful review of the game and banter about the tournament can go a long way towards not making you not seem like a peen waving powergamer to the other guy across the table.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

Dracos wrote:Now that I am winning most/all my games


That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

Make sense? No, I don't get it either. But that's how our incredibly "mature" crowd of gamers thinks.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Give each of your opponents a bag of skittles before a game.

I'd give you top marks.


Bribery = good sport. lol

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






I think I've narrowed it down pretty good based on some of your responses, thanks!

I do almost everything right:
-Talk to players before the game about armies, paintjobs etc
-Shake hands before and after
-I dont gloat or dwell on negative luck
-Discuss how the game went after

However, I maybe too aggressive about making sure the rules are followed. I do it politely, but if its a clear rule error I always (again, politely) insist that we do it the right way. I've called judges a few times for disagreements and never had a judging against me.

I also never give up more battle points to my opponents than I need to. I have no reservations about tabling someone, and often won't allow them to kill more of my army than I have to even if the game is effectively won.

So, in conclusion I guess I'll try to choose rules battles more sparingly and allow my opponents small victories once the game is effectively won. The latter just feels like collusion to give them more battle points though

Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

I am coming a little late to the party but it was brought to my attention that I was mentioned in regards to thumbs up/thumbs down and thought I would weigh in.

First off, I rarely get dinged hard on sports scores but still manage to win events. Even before we adopted the local thumbs up/down mechanic. To avoid sports dinging, in a comp heavy event, you have to be over the top nice; laughing, joking all the time, calling out for your opponent to get good dice rolls against you etc. When a rules question(s) comes up you need to be conciliatory on the surface but firm underneath. Let me explain that. Your opponent attempts rules shenanigans.

Say:
you: "are you sure it works like that?"
opponent: "yes"
you: "Really? We played it much differently the other day, we even looked it up, let's check to make sure." Or "I thought that too until someone proved me wrong the other day, we should look it up to make sure, especially if I was right originally!"

You can be nice and firm about rules at the same time, especially if you can be self effacing and humorous about it. Some people may think that what I propose above is acting or "meta-power gaming" but just being a nice guy about things can go a long way. There are several people who just can't seem to be nice while playing, He Who Must Not be Named from the Blog that Shall not be Named, is a prime example. In their case sports will never work right.

Sports scores need two things to work right: simplicity and separation from overall scores. We do this locally and the guys from Team Zero Comp did this at the BAO and will be doing it at Comikaze in November. Removing the Sports aspect from overall scoring completely eliminates someone dinging an opponent so they can't win the event. The Thumbs Up/Down system ensures that good sportsmanship still matters. Thumbs Up means the game was fine, Thumbs Down means the game was a total disaster, there was: swearing, intimidation, shady activities in game, models getting jostled, over measuring, the BIG stuff. If you give a Thumbs Down you have to explain to a judge WHY in front of the other player, if a player receives two legitimate Thumbs Down they are ejected from the event.

It's simple to explain, simple to enforce, and keeps people from dinging others on sports so they can't win the event.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/10/06 19:44:46


Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato

 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






biccat wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.


Your clone must play in my area.

Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

biccat wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.


Now that is unsporting. It is a tournament therefore it is competitive. If you don't want to get tabled play better.

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OverwatchCNC wrote:
biccat wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.


Now that is unsporting. It is a tournament therefore it is competitive. If you don't want to get tabled play better.


Sportsmanship is part of the tournament, and therefore the event is about more than competition. If you don't want to get rated down for sportsmanship, be a better sport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/06 20:32:34


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Except the next opponent I play after you will ding me on sportsmanship if I draw the game out and make him play a game lost on turn 2 for 3 more turns.

Should I ask you before the game if you want to lose slow or fast? Somehow I think that would be worse. So how do I handle this conundrum while being a "better sport"?

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I can only wonder how there are so many people that manage to do well at tournaments and somehow manage to not get dinged on their sportsmanship scores.

I guess my point is that if one is consistently having problems with different groups of people, perhaps it isn't "soft scores" that are the problem.

Of course, there is definitely the possibility that you are running into a lot of really sore losers. The first step is actually being honest with yourself and seeing if there isn't actually something you might be doing that could be rubbing people the wrong way. It does seem that the OP, at least, has done this so I have a lot of respect for trying to sort it out reasonably.

Or, as mentioned above, bring beer. Hand me an IPA and you'll get top notch sports scores from me no matter what happens on the table top.

Sidstyler wrote:Bribery = good sport. lol


Some might call it simply being generous and having it positively effect peoples' impression of you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/06 21:03:22


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biccat wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:
biccat wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.


Now that is unsporting. It is a tournament therefore it is competitive. If you don't want to get tabled play better.


Sportsmanship is part of the tournament, and therefore the event is about more than competition. If you don't want to get rated down for sportsmanship, be a better sport.


Sure, if you play a comp tournament of course it is. You ignored the main issue of your own poor sportsmanship however. A form of poor sportsmanship I might add that your opponent will not get the chance to ding you on because by the time he knows about it it's too late. Tabling someone is not poor sportsmanship, it is being the superior player. Dinging somebody's sportsmanship score because you lost badly is poor sportsmanship.

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OverwatchCNC wrote:
biccat wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:
biccat wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:That's all you're doing wrong, honestly. People love winning and hate losing. So when they beat you, you're a good sport, but when they lose, you're a bad sport.

There are a lot of ways to win or lose a game.

I like playing the game and don't mind terribly when I lose. But if my opponent tables me on Turn 2, I'm probably going to rate him down for sportsmanship. I come to the game to have fun, not to get wiped out in 10 minutes then spend the rest of the hour and a half watching other people's games.


Now that is unsporting. It is a tournament therefore it is competitive. If you don't want to get tabled play better.


Sportsmanship is part of the tournament, and therefore the event is about more than competition. If you don't want to get rated down for sportsmanship, be a better sport.


Sure, if you play a comp tournament of course it is. You ignored the main issue of your own poor sportsmanship however. A form of poor sportsmanship I might add that your opponent will not get the chance to ding you on because by the time he knows about it it's too late. Tabling someone is not poor sportsmanship, it is being the superior player. Dinging somebody's sportsmanship score because you lost badly is poor sportsmanship.


This is why soft scores have no business in a competitive enviroment, either win or loost, only rate the purly objective things, as there is no good way to rate sportsmanship, only "less bad"

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OverwatchCNC wrote:
Say:
you: "are you sure it works like that?"
opponent: "yes"
you: "Really? We played it much differently the other day, we even looked it up, let's check to make sure." Or "I thought that too until someone proved me wrong the other day, we should look it up to make sure, especially if I was right originally!"



Fantastic way to handle rules disputes right there.

   
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Yeah DoP, that could be a direct quote from the rules disagreements I have. I thought that was the best way to do it to, yet it still only goes so far.

I think its just a lose/lose in many cases.

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jacetms87 wrote:
This is why soft scores have no business in a competitive enviroment, either win or loost, only rate the purly objective things, as there is no good way to rate sportsmanship, only "less bad"


Exactly, the only proper way to do sportsmanship is if you vote at the end of the tournament and some how find a way to figure out who is friends. The second you show up and play buddies its auto max and auto vote for anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/06 23:28:02


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Jubear wrote:When I enter an event that is supposed to be a test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies I do not want to be handicapped by a system designed to encourage good sportsmanship and usaully encourages the opposite due to vindictive little turds getting upset if they loose.


Well, that's one more reason why there would be no opposition to sportsmanship scores if we just did away with 'Overall' prizes. You could play the game and win best General without anything else affecting your score. And the guy there for the sportsmanship can win HIS prize without annoying anyone else either. It's only when we squish them all together into one 'Overall' prize that people start being annoyed that they're being judged on things they never wanted to compete in.

As an aside, while the form of the tournament is a 'test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies', this for me is merely a framing device to the REAL reason I attend - to play against new people and new armies. I would argue that there are as many, if not more, people at any tournament who feel the same way I do.

malfred wrote:I don't really think of them as tournaments. The word that comes to mind is "pageant." I don't mean that in a bad
way, it's just different from a tournament.


But why? Because Sportsmanship and Painting are judged and subjective rather than empirical? 'Pageant' sounds more than a little demeaning. However, the Olympics, the biggest 'tournament' in the world, has many events which are soft scored, and nobody would argue that it's not a tournament, just because there's no empirical way of scoring Synchronised Swimming...

To relate the analogy to the first quote, it would be silly for anyone to say they had Won the Olympics - they just win the event(s) they choose to compete in. A Long Jumper would be mightily pissed off if his lack of Hurdling ability affected his score, and rightly so.

   
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But why? Because Sportsmanship and Painting are judged and subjective rather than empirical? 'Pageant' sounds more than a little demeaning. However, the Olympics, the biggest 'tournament' in the world, has many events which are soft scored, and nobody would argue that it's not a tournament, just because there's no empirical way of scoring Synchronised Swimming...


I've thought of many Olympic sports as "Pageant" sports rather than true competitive sports, and there is usually at least one event that people feel was unjustly judged every time.

To relate the analogy to the first quote, it would be silly for anyone to say they had Won the Olympics - they just win the event(s) they choose to compete in. A Long Jumper would be mightily pissed off if his lack of Hurdling ability affected his score, and rightly so.


Agreed, the best way to ensure events can be enjoyed by the majority of players is to have separate prize categories.

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When I played (American) football back in the day, it was always the blowouts where fights would break out. If we were up big, we would pull the starters, and we wouldn't blitz or throw the ball. With that as context, I would never table a guy or gal who clearly wasn't having fun. I figure if American high school football, which, let's face it, is a much more serious competitive pursuit than 40k will ever be at any level, didn't demand me to mercilessly crush outmatched opponents into the ground, I may as well throw my opponents a bone when I'm winning big at 40k.

As an aside, while the form of the tournament is a 'test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies', this for me is merely a framing device to the REAL reason I attend - to play against new people and new armies. I would argue that there are as many, if not more, people at any tournament who feel the same way I do.

That's definitely my motivation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/07 01:19:33


 
   
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OverwatchCNC wrote:Sure, if you play a comp tournament of course it is. You ignored the main issue of your own poor sportsmanship however. A form of poor sportsmanship I might add that your opponent will not get the chance to ding you on because by the time he knows about it it's too late. Tabling someone is not poor sportsmanship, it is being the superior player. Dinging somebody's sportsmanship score because you lost badly is poor sportsmanship.


Rating someone as having poor sportsmanship is not a form of poor sportsmanship. And because it's a subjective scoring, tabling someone could very well be considered poor sportsmanship.

Tabling someone while being a poor sport doesn't make you a "superior player." It makes you a very poor player, in fact.

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biccat wrote:Tabling someone while being a poor sport doesn't make you a "superior player." It makes you a very poor player, in fact.




I'd take it a step further and say that I'd rather lose to someone who's fun to play than win against a douchebag.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/07 02:03:08


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biccat wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:Sure, if you play a comp tournament of course it is. You ignored the main issue of your own poor sportsmanship however. A form of poor sportsmanship I might add that your opponent will not get the chance to ding you on because by the time he knows about it it's too late. Tabling someone is not poor sportsmanship, it is being the superior player. Dinging somebody's sportsmanship score because you lost badly is poor sportsmanship.


Rating someone as having poor sportsmanship is not a form of poor sportsmanship. And because it's a subjective scoring, tabling someone could very well be considered poor sportsmanship.

Tabling someone while being a poor sport doesn't make you a "superior player." It makes you a very poor player, in fact.


So, as per your initial comment, would you only rate someone down in sportsmanship if they tabled you turn 2 and were also a jerk about it, or would beating you quickly regardless of being a nice guy about it merit a sportsmanship ding?
   
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Unfortunately the current system does not adequately address the situation; it has false incentives (ding the Dash!) and is entirely subjective, whilst simultaneously not preventing TFG from ruining other players day.

Ideally a system should divorce victory from subjective votes and prevent TFG from causing problems.

Sportsmanship should not be a factor in ranking, but there needs to be a system in place for people to report TFG and TOs need to have enough sack to eject such players.

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