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Lynata wrote:Space Wolves ... for some reason powerful enough to deal with the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy.

That singular piece of fluff aside I suppose I'd lean towards the Black Templars, too. They are fairly large as a Chapter already, and their focus on Crusades would seem to make them rely heavily on spaceborne assets.
Just a more or less uneducated guess, though.

I was actually waiting for you to post on this...

Knights of Blood, because I say so.

purplefood wrote:

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves ... for some reason powerful enough to deal with the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy.

That singular piece of fluff aside I suppose I'd lean towards the Black Templars, too. They are fairly large as a Chapter already, and their focus on Crusades would seem to make them rely heavily on spaceborne assets.
Just a more or less uneducated guess, though.

I was actually waiting for you to post on this...

I'm way too predictable.

Black Templar, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists. They are all fleet based chapters.

I would think the templars, it better not be the smurfs

Given the eternal crusade thing I would guess the Templars would have the largest fleet. Dark Angels should be up there as they're supposedly known for having lots of cruisers, plus the Rock is basically a fleet in and of itself (iirc). Dark Angels have 5 Battle Barges according to Lexi, but three of them need citation so salt needed.

Black Templars

Does the Segmentum Pacificus Navy consist of one battleship, 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, and Russell Crowe in his space tugboat?

I'm fairly sure any of the Segementum's Fleets consist of more than enough ships, far greater than that of the other Astartes Chapters. Although IIRC then the Black Templars are at more than half the strength of a FOUNDING Legion meaning that they would need a huge amount of ships to accomadate them.

So yes I do in fact believe that the Black Templars win this argument hands do. Also Battle Barges aren't exactly made for Ship-to-Ship battles so even if the Ultramarines did possess 7 battle barges, their fleet would not be the biggest, nor the strongest.

Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

And Orblivion makes an excellent point, if the BA really do launch minor crusades all across the galaxy, they should have more than a few ships (they only have 2 Battle Barges, Mephiston's flagship, and one that turns renegade and is consequently destroyed.)

Elector wrote:Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

And Orblivion makes an excellent point, if the BA really do launch minor crusades all across the galaxy, they should have more than a few ships (they only have 2 Battle Barges, Mephiston's flagship, and one that turns renegade and is consequently destroyed.)

They probably do have quite a few ships, but like most Chapters, they'll use strike cruiser and rapid strike vessels fr 90% of their fleet.
Battle barges are both impractical and not needed almost al of the time, since a Strike Cruiser can deliver a whole company of Marines to a target faster.

Elector wrote:Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

They surely need ships, but they can't just requisition new frigates, strike cruisers and battle barges endlessly. The High Lords and Inquisition might take notice of how a supposedly Codex chapter needs far more ships than necessary - after all, if the Ultramarines make do with what they have directly under chapter colors...

I'd imagine a large part of the BT fleet is in fact slow bulk transports, captured enemy vessels and castoffs. Anything that floats and gets the templars to their next crusade target.

Spetulhu wrote:

Elector wrote:Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

They surely need ships, but they can't just requisition new frigates, strike cruisers and battle barges endlessly. The High Lords and Inquisition might take notice of how a supposedly Codex chapter needs far more ships than necessary - after all, if the Ultramarines make do with what they have directly under chapter colors...

I'd imagine a large part of the BT fleet is in fact slow bulk transports, captured enemy vessels and castoffs. Anything that floats and gets the templars to their next crusade target.

But I'd imagine they'd have more leniency given their fleet-based status (Ultramarines have all of Ultramar), or use obfuscation to work around that.

Minotaurs. When the High Lords of Terra are your boss, you get lots of shinys. Not to mention they seem competent at comondeering other Adeptus Astartes ships when they want to.


I also have to give a hat tip to the Silver Skulls because they have been noted specifically for having an unusually large fleet for a non-fleet based chapter.

Elector wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Elector wrote:Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

They surely need ships, but they can't just requisition new frigates, strike cruisers and battle barges endlessly. The High Lords and Inquisition might take notice of how a supposedly Codex chapter needs far more ships than necessary - after all, if the Ultramarines make do with what they have directly under chapter colors...

I'd imagine a large part of the BT fleet is in fact slow bulk transports, captured enemy vessels and castoffs. Anything that floats and gets the templars to their next crusade target.

But I'd imagine they'd have more leniency given their fleet-based status (Ultramarines have all of Ultramar), or use obfuscation to work around that.

Not by much. Again, they will have small ships as the vast majority of their fleet, especially as many Crusades are actually quite small.

So again while I agree they will have the BIGGEST fleet, I don't agree that it's a given that it'd also be the most powerful.
But if we are after pure size as in number of ships, then Black Templars probably do win.

Pretty clear its Black Templars. I can imagine at least 10 Battle Barges and 3 dozen of Strike Cruisers.

Harriticus wrote:Pretty clear its Black Templars. I can imagine at least 10 Battle Barges and 3 dozen of Strike Cruisers.

There is no way in hell they have 10 Battle Barges. You think the Mechanicus and High Lords are going to hand that over without questions? Please

There is no source at all that even HINTS their fleet would have 10 Battle Barges.

10 battle barges is WAY too much.

Chapters get 2 or 3 Battle Barges at most. the Imperium won't risk the possibility of a Chapter Fleet being that powerful, in case they go renegade.

The Black Templars wouldn't be the most powerful, but they'd be the most numerous.

(Also, I recall that the higher-class ships are delegated to transport, delivery, or suppression for planetary invasions, but only the smallest ships would be solely gunships (this was all to ensure they wouldn't present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper following the Heresy) ) So battle barges and strike cruisers are mainly aids for invasion rather than full-on gunboats.

Harriticus wrote:Pretty clear its Black Templars. I can imagine at least 10 Battle Barges and 3 dozen of Strike Cruisers.

While they might have the largest Battle Barge, the canon tells us the UM have the most BBs and the BT have the most vessels

Elector wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Elector wrote:Black Templars, between their fleet-based nature and their significantly large numbers that nobody has quite a number on, they would have the most ships overall throughout the galaxy on their crusades.

They surely need ships, but they can't just requisition new frigates, strike cruisers and battle barges endlessly. The High Lords and Inquisition might take notice of how a supposedly Codex chapter needs far more ships than necessary - after all, if the Ultramarines make do with what they have directly under chapter colors...

I'd imagine a large part of the BT fleet is in fact slow bulk transports, captured enemy vessels and castoffs. Anything that floats and gets the templars to their next crusade target.

But I'd imagine they'd have more leniency given their fleet-based status (Ultramarines have all of Ultramar), or use obfuscation to work around that.

Leniency? I don't know what that means, but it sounds heretical.

I imagine that the Inquisition has a large 'to do' list that includes things like finding out exactly what's up with the Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and all the other non-Codex chapters. It's just that those items are way down on the list.

And Black Templars have to have the largest fleet. Although I guess you could get fancy and start arguing number of ships vs tonnage.

Elector wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:I'd imagine a large part of the BT fleet is in fact slow bulk transports, captured enemy vessels and castoffs. Anything that floats and gets the templars to their next crusade target.

But I'd imagine they'd have more leniency given their fleet-based status (Ultramarines have all of Ultramar), or use obfuscation to work around that.

Well, captured vessels could be anything the Templars have the courage to fight and board. But obfuscation and jury-rigged repairs must surely be a part of their arsenal. Severe battle damage would require the use of a shipyard, ammunition in large enough stockpiles requires large purchases too, and those things are sure to be recorded. It's probably only their eternally moving crusades that make it possible in the first place - once someone puts together a few centuries-old pieces the Templars have long moved on and likely recorded a few losses to their tonnage while forgetting to record new aquisitions.

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves ... for some reason powerful enough to deal with the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy.

As much as I love the wolfies, I dont think their fleet is that great. IIRC its 15 ships, one per company and 3 in reserve. And due to the irregular nature of 'acquiring' their ships, they range from capital class to unknown small. I think only 2-3 are battle barge worthy though. The rest are strike cruisers and the like.

shimraa wrote:

Lynata wrote:Space Wolves ... for some reason powerful enough to deal with the entire Segmentum Pacifica Navy.

As much as I love the wolfies, I dont think their fleet is that great. IIRC its 15 ships, one per company and 3 in reserve. And due to the irregular nature of 'acquiring' their ships, they range from capital class to unknown small. I think only 2-3 are battle barge worthy though. The rest are strike cruisers and the like.

Never mind that they also lost strike cruiser (Wolf of Fenris) to Chaos

Redshade wrote:the Doom Legion has a Pre-heresy star fortress called Faithful's Deliverance.

I had no idea the Doom Legion were Pre-Heresy?

Redshade wrote:the Doom Legion has a Pre-heresy star fortress called Faithful's Deliverance.

IF have a massive star forts too...one that was mistaken for a moon. PHALANX FTW!

The Black Templars, ecspecially given the fact that they are a crusading chapter with somewhere between 6,000 - 10,000 marines as members.

They are Astartes and as such, would not be using slow moving bulk haulers etc.. to get themselves into combat as someone suggested.

They would have battle barges and strike cruisers sufficient to accomodate the majority of their forces, both for transportation and deployment. It is also worth noting, that as a second founding chapter they have had 10,000 years to continue accumulating all of their toys.

During the battle for Armageddon, who was it that the Space Marine Chapter Masters placed in command of the fleets? Helbrecht, High Marshall of the Black Templars.

IdentifyZero wrote:The Black Templars, ecspecially given the fact that they are a crusading chapter with somewhere between 6,000 - 10,000 marines as members.

That is guesswork, we have no firm clue how big they actually are.

IdentifyZero wrote:They are Astartes and as such, would not be using slow moving bulk haulers etc.. to get themselves into combat as someone suggested.

I agree, but they WILL still mostly be using small Rapid Strike vessels.

IdentifyZero wrote:They would have battle barges and strike cruisers sufficient to accomodate the majority of their forces, both for transportation and deployment. It is also worth noting, that as a second founding chapter they have had 10,000 years to continue accumulating all of their toys.

They would have a few Barges, quite a few strike cruisers, and lots of Rapid strike vessels, like all crusading Chapters.

IdentifyZero wrote:
During the battle for Armageddon, who was it that the Space Marine Chapter Masters placed in command of the fleets? Helbrecht, High Marshall of the Black Templars.

Because he is the most experienced in void warfare, which has no bearing on this discussion.


Again, yes, BT's will have the largest fleet probably.
But it will NOT be made up of 10+ Battlebarges like some have suggested, and like all marine fleets will be mostly small, fast ships.

BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

Harrower wrote:
That is guesswork, we have no firm clue how big they actually are.

It doesn't read in the dex like it was ever intended to tell us how numerous they are. So shall we stop guessing?

Harrower wrote:
- I agree, but they WILL still mostly be using small Rapid Strike vessels.

- They would have a few Barges, quite a few strike cruisers, and lots of Rapid strike vessels, like all crusading Chapters.

- Again, yes, BT's will have the largest fleet probably.

- But it will NOT be made up of 10+ Battlebarges like some have suggested, and like all marine fleets will be mostly small, fast ships.

Codex BT page 8, first paragraph: " ....dozens of...." are listed and it starts with the capital ships.
Codex BT last page, donian crusade: ~ 800 marines, 'sigismunds licht', 'dorns schwert', 'apokalypton', 9 cruisers, and frigates aren't worth listing it seems.. so if 800 + marines justify to move 3 named vessels of a noteworthy size why should they lack the ressources to move a great portion of 1o times as many marines?

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.