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1hadhq wrote:

Codex BT page 8, first paragraph: " ....dozens of...." are listed and it starts with the capital ships.
Codex BT last page, donian crusade: ~ 800 marines, 'sigismunds licht', 'dorns schwert', 'apokalypton', 9 cruisers, and frigates aren't worth listing it seems.. so if 800 + marines justify to move 3 named vessels of a noteworthy size why should they lack the ressources to move a great portion of 1o times as many marines?

How did you get that ship list?
My BT Codex states under Donian Crusade on the last page:

Sigmunds Light: Battlebarge
Heracles: Forgeship (non combat ship used to make ammo and repair stuff)
Dorns Sword: Strike Cruiser
3 Rapid Strike vessels (these are frigates, as per Battlefleet Gothic)
19 Thunderhawk Gunships

So 1 barge, 1 cruiser, 3 frigates and a supply tender/forge ship, for a Crusade nearly the size of a whole normal chapter.

That is a VAST difference from what you wrote. Are there different printings? I assume your copy is German going by ship names, might be that.


And the page 8 line is "dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers and other craft incluidng training ships, fr#orge ships" etc.

So dozens of ships in total, but that includes non combat vessels, and WILL include primarily frigates, as I already said.

I freely admit they are the biggest still.

Harrower wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Codex BT page 8, first paragraph: " ....dozens of...." are listed and it starts with the capital ships.
Codex BT last page, donian crusade: ~ 800 marines, 'sigismunds licht', 'dorns schwert', 'apokalypton', 9 cruisers, and frigates aren't worth listing it seems.. so if 800 + marines justify to move 3 named vessels of a noteworthy size why should they lack the ressources to move a great portion of 1o times as many marines?

How did you get that ship list?
My BT Codex states under Donian Crusade on the last page:

Sigmunds Light: Battlebarge
Heracles: Forgeship (non combat ship used to make ammo and repair stuff)
Dorns Sword: Strike Cruiser
3 Rapid Strike vessels (these are frigates, as per Battlefleet Gothic)
19 Thunderhawk Gunships

So 1 barge, 1 cruiser, 3 frigates and a supply tender/forge ship, for a Crusade nearly the size of a whole normal chapter.

That is a VAST difference from what you wrote. Are there different printings? I assume your copy is German going by ship names, might be that.


And the page 8 line is "dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers and other craft incluidng training ships, fr#orge ships" etc.

So dozens of ships in total, but that includes non combat vessels, and WILL include primarily frigates, as I already said.

I freely admit they are the biggest still.

So poor writing lol?

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

Asherian Command wrote:

Harrower wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Codex BT page 8, first paragraph: " ....dozens of...." are listed and it starts with the capital ships.
Codex BT last page, donian crusade: ~ 800 marines, 'sigismunds licht', 'dorns schwert', 'apokalypton', 9 cruisers, and frigates aren't worth listing it seems.. so if 800 + marines justify to move 3 named vessels of a noteworthy size why should they lack the ressources to move a great portion of 1o times as many marines?

How did you get that ship list?
My BT Codex states under Donian Crusade on the last page:

Sigmunds Light: Battlebarge
Heracles: Forgeship (non combat ship used to make ammo and repair stuff)
Dorns Sword: Strike Cruiser
3 Rapid Strike vessels (these are frigates, as per Battlefleet Gothic)
19 Thunderhawk Gunships

So 1 barge, 1 cruiser, 3 frigates and a supply tender/forge ship, for a Crusade nearly the size of a whole normal chapter.

That is a VAST difference from what you wrote. Are there different printings? I assume your copy is German going by ship names, might be that.


And the page 8 line is "dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers and other craft incluidng training ships, fr#orge ships" etc.

So dozens of ships in total, but that includes non combat vessels, and WILL include primarily frigates, as I already said.

I freely admit they are the biggest still.

So poor writing lol?

Why is that poor writing?

A Battlebarge and Strike cruiser alone can carry half of those marines, probably another company split between the RSVs, and the rest would be on the Forgeship and the many unlisted transports any major campaign requires for any number of reasons.

But the point holds....I still see absolutely zero evidence for the double figures numbers of battle barges idea.
Indeed, again, evidence suggest mostly Strike Cruisers and RSVs, which makes perfect sense, as they are far faster and more verstile for smaller Crusades.

Harrower wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Codex BT page 8, first paragraph: " ....dozens of...." are listed and it starts with the capital ships.
Codex BT last page, donian crusade: ~ 800 marines, 'sigismunds licht', 'dorns schwert', 'apokalypton', 9 cruisers, and frigates aren't worth listing it seems.. so if 800 + marines justify to move 3 named vessels of a noteworthy size why should they lack the ressources to move a great portion of 1o times as many marines?

How did you get that ship list?
My BT Codex states under Donian Crusade on the last page:

Sigmunds Light: Battlebarge
Heracles: Forgeship (non combat ship used to make ammo and repair stuff)
Dorns Sword: Strike Cruiser
3 Rapid Strike vessels (these are frigates, as per Battlefleet Gothic)
19 Thunderhawk Gunships

So 1 barge, 1 cruiser, 3 frigates and a supply tender/forge ship, for a Crusade nearly the size of a whole normal chapter.

That is a VAST difference from what you wrote. Are there different printings? I assume your copy is German going by ship names, might be that.


And the page 8 line is "dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers and other craft including training ships, frorge ships" etc.

So dozens of ships in total, but that includes non combat vessels, and WILL include primarily frigates, as I already said.

I freely admit they are the biggest still.

Difference? The bottom of the last page lists the participants of the crusade the inquisition knows of. Your list only contains the marshals fleet. I did add the rest, the 3 'sub-commanders' and the unknown elements. Dunno if the codex I have has a altered layout to fit the translated text in, but I doubt listings need more space in another language.

And the page 8 line is "dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers (and other craft including training ships, forge ships)"

Commonly vessels of are certain size ( cruisers and above ) are mentioned in name, also listed first. IMO your interpretation reads like:
....major assets + minor elements = dozens.... which is not correct.
Dozens: 1 dozen = 12, x dozens = 12x 2(3,4,..) .
Training ships and forge ships would never count, like most of the supply vessels would.
Thus "dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers, " means exactly that, multiple dozens of military purpose ships equal or greater than cruisers.
It isn't automatically granting 10+ battlebarges as dozens could be 5-6 of them plus 3 times their number in cruisers.
So i agree its not simply dozens of battlebarges, but non combat vessels aren't listed in fleet lists and frigates often count as "escorts" without even naming the squadron and therefore dozens will not include the smallest vessels or the non-combatants.

Asherian Command wrote:
So poor writing lol?

Always an option if I hit the keyboard.

1hadhq wrote:

Difference? The bottom of the last page lists the participants of the crusade the inquisition knows of. Your list only contains the marshals fleet. I did add the rest, the 3 'sub-commanders' and the unknown elements. Dunno if the codex I have has a altered layout to fit the translated text in, but I doubt listings need more space in another language.


Commonly vessels of are certain size ( cruisers and above ) are mentioned in name, also listed first. IMO your interpretation reads like:
....major assets + minor elements = dozens.... which is not correct.
Dozens: 1 dozen = 12, x dozens = 12x 2(3,4,..) .
Training ships and forge ships would never count, like most of the supply vessels would.
Thus "dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers, " means exactly that, multiple dozens of military purpose ships equal or greater than cruisers.

Ahhh, makes sense. For some reason I got the impression those were the Imperial Navy units attached to them, but I could well be mistaken. I'll take another look at my book a bit later!


As to the second part, I disagree. If it meant the "dozens" were just Barges and Cruisers,the language would be totally different.

What it says: "Dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other ships". Which is an inclusive sentence, suggesting that the other ships are included in the dozens

What YOU are interpreting it to mean is "dozens of battle barges and strike cruisers, and other ships".
Which isn't what it says.

Harrower wrote:


As to the second part, I disagree. If it meant the "dozens" were just Barges and Cruisers,the language would be totally different.

What it says: "Dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other ships". Which is an inclusive sentence, suggesting that the other ships are included in the dozens

What YOU are interpreting it to mean is "dozens of battle barges and strike cruisers, and other ships".
Which isn't what it says.

ok. Lets try to come to an estimated size of the fleet with: dozens of are battle barges, strike cruisers, training ships and forge ships, following your interpretation.

Parts of the "dozens" are:
- battlebarges
- strike cruisers
- training ships ( who may be as big as cruisers )
- forge ships ( who we have an example of a forgeship of the Salamanders, which could be unique in size but still would rival some of the capital ships of other fleets )

I still fail to see how this includes frigates and other small vessels, or even big but only lightly armed ones like transports.
The size of the vessel seems to have some influence to get on the list of these "dozens".

Thus a minimum of: 12 x 2 ( or 3,4, or more since we don't know how many dozens GW intended to tell us about ) forms the fleet of the BT. GW tends to a ratio of 3:1 in strike cruisers : battle barges rather often in fluff. Training ships would be at best 1 per fleet as would the forge ships and therfore as rare as battlebarges IMO.

With 24+ noteworthy vessels in an example of identical fleet composition:
- 4 battlebarges
- 4 training facilities
- 4 forge ships
- 12 strike cruisers

So even at a low rate of battlebarges the BT could have as many (or more than) battlebarges as most of the codex chapters have if 2/3 of their non-strike cruiser vessels aren't battlebarges.
But why should they have so many training ships if they have missions on the ground and facilities on board of the strike cruisers and battle barges? Why should they have more forgeships than chapters with closer ties to the mechanicum?

1hadhq wrote:

Harrower wrote:


As to the second part, I disagree. If it meant the "dozens" were just Barges and Cruisers,the language would be totally different.

What it says: "Dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other ships". Which is an inclusive sentence, suggesting that the other ships are included in the dozens

What YOU are interpreting it to mean is "dozens of battle barges and strike cruisers, and other ships".
Which isn't what it says.

ok. Lets try to come to an estimated size of the fleet with: dozens of are battle barges, strike cruisers, training ships and forge ships, following your interpretation.

Parts of the "dozens" are:
- battlebarges
- strike cruisers
- training ships ( who may be as big as cruisers )
- forge ships ( who we have an example of a forgeship of the Salamanders, which could be unique in size but still would rival some of the capital ships of other fleets )

I still fail to see how this includes frigates and other small vessels, or even big but only lightly armed ones like transports.
The size of the vessel seems to have some influence to get on the list of these "dozens".

Thus a minimum of: 12 x 2 ( or 3,4, or more since we don't know how many dozens GW intended to tell us about ) forms the fleet of the BT. GW tends to a ratio of 3:1 in strike cruisers : battle barges rather often in fluff. Training ships would be at best 1 per fleet as would the forge ships and therfore as rare as battlebarges IMO.

With 24+ noteworthy vessels in an example of identical fleet composition:
- 4 battlebarges
- 4 training facilities
- 4 forge ships
- 12 strike cruisers

So even at a low rate of battlebarges the BT could have as many (or more than) battlebarges as most of the codex chapters have if 2/3 of their non-strike cruiser vessels aren't battlebarges.
But why should they have so many training ships if they have missions on the ground and facilities on board of the strike cruisers and battle barges? Why should they have more forgeships than chapters with closer ties to the mechanicum?

First, i have to say I never said that they didn't have more battlebarges than other chapters. I'm almost sure they have more than the vast majority, so we aren't arguing on that point. In fact, 4-5 is exactly what I would expect them to have, so it seems we are making progress in that area!
Next, we don't know if they have more Forge ships than other Chapters, as I have absolutely no clue how many other Chapters may have (and I assume neither do you). However, it stands to reason that feet based Chapters will have more, as they need to spread out more.

Indeed, using your own Donian Crusade example, they put 1 of them with that Crusade which was probably only 10-15% of the Chapters strength. That suggest there may be more than 4, but impossible to say.


However, the part of that text you are missing is "dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other vessels SUCH AS", so again, there's no sign that RSVs aren't included in that number.

My own personal guess (and it IS a guess, as we are discovering we can't really prove this either way):

4-5 Battle Barges
8-10 Strike Cruisers
4-6 Forge Ships
4 or so training/apothecarion ships
15-20 Rapid Strike Vessels

That would put the total at 2-3 dozen approximately, and would seem appropriate.

That doesn't include transports, tenders and the other tag along miscellany any major fleet would require.

Not too far from yours now, and much more realistic than the people that have been claiming a dozen or more Battle Barges!

But...they don't have the most pimpinest ship in space...that phalanx!

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Harrower wrote:



4-5 Battle Barges
8-10 Strike Cruisers
4-6 Forge Ships
4 or so training/apothecarion ships
15-20 Rapid Strike Vessels

That would put the total at 2-3 dozen approximately, and would seem appropriate.

That doesn't include transports, tenders and the other tag along miscellany any major fleet would require.

Not too far from yours now, and much more realistic than the people that have been claiming a dozen or more Battle Barges!

What do we want? Dozens of battlebarges. What do we have? Some....

But why do these RSV show up?
The major assets, battle barges and strike cruisers , ships that are named and the other important and sometimes named vessels like forge ships and these ominous "training ships" are of a noticable size. The RSV come in squadrons....and may not have a crew of marines at all.
These RSV are tools, used and expended if necessary. Not the same 'class' as ships that transport the detachment or company(ies) of marines into battle, nor are they as valuable as the training grounds of the future of the chapter or the production facilities of the arms and fuels to deal out his wrath. IIRC the RSV aren't worth the lives of marines and giving them up is a valid option.
So why would they deserve enough "weigth" to have one of the slots in a list of dozens of ships ? Wouldn't the RSV as a squadron count as much as a cruiser sized vessel?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:But...they don't have the most pimpinest ship in space...that phalanx!

The 'eternal crusader' is good enough for these sons of Dorn. Their brethren have the phalanx....
Wanna see a double team move? Becoming Sandwiched between the defenses of the IF and the charge of the BT?

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Yeah, even with most of the fleet away, they still inflicted considerable losses on the 1k suns. The rest of the fleet was even bigger, since they were about 3500-4000 marines at that point.

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Yeah, even with most of the fleet away, they still inflicted considerable losses on the 1k suns. The rest of the fleet was even bigger, since they were about 3500-4000 marines at that point.

Then how does a good part of their fleet become decimated?
It seems like a small part of their fleet was destroyed and the rest came back and avenged it...

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Yeah, even with most of the fleet away, they still inflicted considerable losses on the 1k suns. The rest of the fleet was even bigger, since they were about 3500-4000 marines at that point.

Then how does a good part of their fleet become decimated?
It seems like a small part of their fleet was destroyed and the rest came back and avenged it...

Because they lost 1/10 in the first battle, then a few more when they return, so they lost about 1/5. I think.

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Yeah, even with most of the fleet away, they still inflicted considerable losses on the 1k suns. The rest of the fleet was even bigger, since they were about 3500-4000 marines at that point.

Then how does a good part of their fleet become decimated?
It seems like a small part of their fleet was destroyed and the rest came back and avenged it...

Because they lost 1/10 in the first battle, then a few more when they return, so they lost about 1/5. I think.

That's not really a great amount...

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

purplefood wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:BT definately have the most, though that is in total, and not necesarily proportionate. I am betting Ultrasmurfs have more relative to number of warriors.

Also, during M32, I believe SW had the most, though a good part of their fleet was decimated by the 1k sons at the time

I thought the Sons didn't even attempt to stop the Wolves from approaching...
The Wolves led the counter-attack against the traitor legions after the Siege of Terra which most likely cost them dearly so they probably would have lost a lot of ships then.

No, M32 was the 1k suns counter attack in the wake of the Heresy against the Fang.

You mean the counter attack that took place when most of the fleet and chapter was absent attacking a random fortress?

Yeah, even with most of the fleet away, they still inflicted considerable losses on the 1k suns. The rest of the fleet was even bigger, since they were about 3500-4000 marines at that point.

Then how does a good part of their fleet become decimated?
It seems like a small part of their fleet was destroyed and the rest came back and avenged it...

Because they lost 1/10 in the first battle, then a few more when they return, so they lost about 1/5. I think.

That's not really a great amount...

But without the numbers to make them worth more ships, losses like that likely wouldn't all be replaced by the Mechanicus. Meaning every loss is a big deal, especially when it is 20% of your fleet.

Their fleet was roughly
2-3 SC per GC
3 Battle Barges
A huge number of interceptor/frigates
And one heavily modded frigate (forget name) that was about twice as fast as any other ship in the whole book. Engines took 50% of the ship's length.

The Space Wolves have some pretty hefty barges and cruisers, but the black templars definitely have the largest fleet