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lledwey wrote:You agree that even though it says 'engaged models make their full number of attacks', an IC can effectively lose his attacks if the models in base contact have died by the time his initiative step is up. It doesn't say that anywhere in the rules,

But this was in the latest main rules FAQ;

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before
any model attacked) were engaged with more than
one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one
of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

But note that the above was not a FAQ, it was actually an errata, making it a part of the official rules.

And you have to remember that the IC can still attack the unit it was in base contact with, not just the models.

For example, an IC joined with an infantry unit assaults a unit of 20 orks. The IC ends up in base contact with 2 orks. The inantry unit striking at higher init than the IC kills 3 orks. The ork player removes the 2 orks that were in base contact with the IC. At the IC's init, it can still attack the orks because at the beginning of the round of combat, it was in base contact with the ork unit.

jbunny wrote:So by your logic Drazhar gets +1 attacks every round and benefits from FNP if he has enough Pain tokens since he is making an assault move???

Assaulting /= making an assault move.

I agree with everything you said time wizard. However, your example is not the same as what I was referring to. If you go up to my example, the SM Captain was ONLY in base contact with Drazhar. He can't attack the Incubi, because he was not in contact with that unit, only Drazhar, who counts as a separate unit as per the IC rules.

The thing you're saying with the Orks is all well and good. Again though, say that Ork unit had a Warboss attached, and the assaulting unit was a group of Howling Banshees with an Autarch (and the Autarch doesn't have a Banshee Mask). If the Autarch was ONLY in base contact with the Warboss, and the Banshees kill the Warboss before the Auturch gets to swing, the Autarch does NOT get to hit the unit. That is what I have been saying the whole time as it applies to Drazhar.

If the IC that Drazhar's unit is assaulting ends up in base contact with more than just Drazhar, then of course he can still attack the unit. That's why you would move Drazhar first into base with the IC, and then move the Incubi to the unit.

Edit: I think that you actually were just referring to what you quoted, which I suppose I did say wrong. I was referring back to my example. So when I said that an IC can lose his attacks if the models in base contact die, what I meant to say was that if he was only in base to base with an IC that dies. My mistake.

There is nothing in the rules to indicate that you check more than once to see what models a given attacking model is eligible to attack. It's a single step.

Exactly when that "determine who can attack whom" step takes place is not 100% explicit, but is stated to be before any model attacks, and by definition has to be some time after the assaulting models have moved into contact and Defenders React moves have taken place.

Drazhar, as an Independent Character, allocates and resolves his attacks as if he were his own unit, even when attached to a unit. The purpose of his rule seems to be to allow the controlling player to put him in the optimal position to attack where he chooses. If so, then his move must take place before we check which models are eligible to attack which units. If so, then necessarily it follows that his move will also impact which models are eligible to attack him.

lledwey wrote:Edit: I think that you actually were just referring to what you quoted, which I suppose I did say wrong. I was referring back to my example. So when I said that an IC can lose his attacks if the models in base contact die, what I meant to say was that if he was only in base to base with an IC that dies. My mistake.

Probably mine as well, I think we were posting at cross purposes here, both saying essentially the same thing in different ways.

The key for Drazhar is that his rule allows him to move at the beginning of a round of combat and it is at this same step that we determine which units are engaged with which units. But since in general, assault moves are made before any defender react moves are made, and all moves are made before the round of combat begins, then Drazhar's move would be made before you determined who could attack.

Now here's a related question. jbunny worte up the following as an example of what the combat looked like.

jbunny wrote:Just for clearaty I will try to write out what the combat looked like


Before move

TTA
LDA
AAA

After Move

TTA
L A
AAA
D

T= Termie
L = Libby
A= Assault Marine
D =Drazhar

This I believe would not be a legal move for Drazhar. His move is made at the beginning of the round of combat, and he must move into base contact with an enemy unit, which follows the rules for making an asault move.
Nothing in Drazhar's rule gives him permission to move through friendly or enemy models or through gaps smaller than his base, so if as part of the defender's react move you are able to completely surround Drazhar, you would take away his ability to move before the round of combat begins. This would in essence lock him in place.

time wizard wrote:Nothing in Drazhar's rule gives him permission to move through friendly or enemy models or through gaps smaller than his base, so if as part of the defender's react move you are able to completely surround Drazhar, you would take away his ability to move before the round of combat begins. This would in essence lock him in place.

Drazhar can "...move to any part of the same combat where there is room to place him."
So, the situation jbunny diagrams is perfectly legal, as far as I can tell.

Yet you dont bold "move to"

"Move" has a specific usage in 40k

Mannahnin wrote:There is nothing in the rules to indicate that you check more than once to see what models a given attacking model is eligible to attack. It's a single step.

Exactly when that "determine who can attack whom" step takes place is not 100% explicit, but is stated to be before any model attacks, and by definition has to be some time after the assaulting models have moved into contact and Defenders React moves have taken place.

Drazhar, as an Independent Character, allocates and resolves his attacks as if he were his own unit, even when attached to a unit. The purpose of his rule seems to be to allow the controlling player to put him in the optimal position to attack where he chooses. If so, then his move must take place before we check which models are eligible to attack which units. If so, then necessarily it follows that his move will also impact which models are eligible to attack him.

I agree with what you are saying, but the purpose of the rule does not mesh with the actual rules. At least someone else agrees with me that the timing is not clearly laid out, thus the confusion.

jbunny wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but the purpose of the rule does not mesh with the actual rules. At least someone else agrees with me that the timing is not clearly laid out, thus the confusion.

The purpose (allowing the player to move Drazhar to another part of the combat, possibly to prevent damage from a different unit or IC) does mesh with the rules as written.

But I agree that the timing and the specifics of the rule could have been written better. The rule says Drazhar uses his rule at the beginning of the round of combat, it wouldn't have killed them to add "before which units are engaged is determined" but they didn't.

GW often "screws the pooch" when writing the rules. A classic example is the SM Librarian's Gate of Infinity which is used "at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase". We all know that individual models do not have their own Movement phases, so the rule just allows the Librarian to GoI during the SM's Movement phase. If the rule read that GoI was used "at the beginning of the Movement phase" then people would argue that if you didn't use GoI first, then you were no longer at the beginning of the Movement phase, so you couldn't use it.

As for Drazhar's rule, the sequence of events in the main rulebook goes paragraph by paragraph in the rulebook.
First attackers make their assault move.
Then defenders make their react move
Then determine which units are engaged.
Then resolve the combat.

Drazhar's rule allows him to move after the defenders react, but I will agree that the rule could be clearer.

What I meant was what they wanted Drazhar to do does not fit with exactly how they wrote it.

I don't think it's contrary either. IMO the rule is slightly ambiguous, but can at least as easily be read to work the way it seems to be intended to, as otherwise.