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Drazhar has the ability to redeploy in the assault. If he redeploys away from an IC does the IC lose the ability to attack that turn. The reason I ask is you determine who can fight at the start of the turn. Drazhars ability happens at the start of the turn.

Just to give an example from last night. Drazhar was by himself, and surrounded by Libby attached to an Assault Squad, also on Drazhar was Termie Squad. The Dark Eldar player repositioned him to where he was only in base with a Assault Marine taking him out of Assault with the Libby, and the Termies. Drazhar was the only Dark Eldar model in the assault. Was this played correctly?

Yes it was played right and an IC which drazar movers out of b2b cannot make any attacks unless still in b2b with a model after the move

If the IC is not in btb iwth another model the IC cannot attack

When do you check if it is in Base to Base? At the start of the Assault. Drazhars ability happens at the start of the assault. Why does his take priority?

Because when it is the IC's turn in initiative, he has nobody to attack. He can't move in the middle of the round. At the start of combat, he was eligible to attack Drazhar. However, by the time his initiative step is up, Drazhar is no longer in BtB. It would be the same if Drazhar stayed put and somehow died before that IC had a turn. Just because he was eligible to attack him at the start of the combat doesn't mean he can ignore the situation present during his initiative step. No throwing CCWs here. At least that's how I see it, I may be incorrect on one or more points.

But you can not remove models just to prevent models from being about to attack. Just like you can't remove models to prevent Power fist from attacking. You determine at the start of the phase who can assault. That determines which unit they are allowed to assault. Even if that model is no longer with in 2" or in base to base contact.

lledwey wrote:Because when it is the IC's turn in initiative, he has nobody to attack.

This is incorrect, and is a mistake frequently made by folks remembering 4th or 3rd edition. In 5th, a model's eligibility to attack is determined before any of the models in the assault swing. So casualty removal at a higher Initiative step never removes the abilty to attack from a model at a lower initiative step. (see page 35)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbunny wrote:When do you check if it is in Base to Base? At the start of the Assault. Drazhars ability happens at the start of the assault. Why does his take priority?

More specifically you determine who can fight at the beginning of the Resolve Combats step (which is step 3 of the Assault Phase).

Drazhar's move has to happen before this because otherwise moving Drazhar has no impact on who he HIMSELF attacks.

Well hey, I said I was probably wrong. But then, how does the following work:

Let's say we have some Howling Banshees and an Autarch in combat against a SM Tactical Squad and a Captain.

H = Banshee
A = Autarch
S = Space Marine
C = Captain

HAH H H H
HCH S S S S
HHH S S S H

Something like that. Captain is surrounded by Banshees and the Autarch, and the Autarch is only in B2B with the captain and no marines. At I10, the 7 banshees in B2B direct their attacks at the Captain and kill him. At I6, even though he was eligible to attack the Captain, the Captain is already dead.

I know you can't remove models from preventing other ones from attacking, but what happens in my example, which is basically the same as having Drazhar move away? Again, I'm not trying to say I'm right, I'm sure I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand how this works. Does the Autarch get to make attacks against the Captain anyway even though he is already gone?

Good point. It doesn't impact the Drazhar situation, but you are correct that the Autarch will functionally lose his attacks, if the only unit he was eligible to attack at the start of Step 3 is wiped out by the time he swings.

But why doesn't that impact the Drazhar situation? In that case, the only unit he was eligible to attack at the start of step 3 was no longer in base contact due to his unique rule, isn't that basically the same? Or is it that the rule would not work unless we assume he moves BEFORE the actual combat starts?

The thing is, I don't really think there's precedent for this, is there? I guess Howling Banshee Exarchs have a similar ablity, but I've never seen anything about it. Replacing the Captain with Drazhar in my example, the Autarch is 100% eligible and in fact only able to direct his attacks at Drazhar at the start of the combat. The rules don't say anything about whether or not he can still make those attacks if Drazhar is no longer in B2B at the Autarch's initiative step for some strange reason (like his rule.) All it says on page 35 is:

"All engaged models will fight in this turn's assault phase with their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attacks they have. Any models left unengaged because they are too far from an enemy model cannot attack this turn. However, they can still be killed by the enemy, and the result of the combat will still affect them.

Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change until its end, but casualties may make it difficult to remember as the fight continues, especially in a large combat. To make the distinction clear, you may find it useful to turn unengaged models so that they are facing away from their opponents. This will help you to remember once the dice start rolling."

So first we have the fact that if a model is engaged, regardless of circumstance, it can fight with its full number of attacks. Second, who is and isn't engaged is determined at the start of combat and doesn't change. So the Autarch is engaged and Drazhar moving doesn't change that, but I still don't see why the Autarch would be able to attack him. He's engaged, but has nobody to hit.

As you've said. His rule would be almost meaningless if it didn't impact who Drazhar himself is eligible to attack. So the timing of the move clearly has to be before we determine that. The impact on the model which is now being rendered unable to attack is a side effect (and extra benefit, when you can set it up).

Right but the rules on pg. 35 don't say anything about who models are eligible to attack, just whether or not they are engaged and thus able to attack at all.

Looking at the rules on pg. 41, I can see a possible different interpretation that doesn't force you to move Drazhar before combat starts and still lets him fight. Under the heading 'ATTACKING':

"Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

So we declare who we are attacking immediately before rolling to hit, which means we do it at our initiative step.

In this example,

D = Drazhar
I = Incubi
S = Space Marine
C = Captain

So the Incubi and Drazhar charge in, and it looks like this:

C S S S S
DS I I I I I

The Captain and Drazhar are both engaged, and so are both able to make their attacks this combat as per the rules above. The Captain can, during his initiative step, choose who to swing at, the Incubi or Drazhar, since he is engaged in combat with both of them (Edit: looking at the diagram on p.49, I think that the Captain might ONLY be engaged with Drazhar, even though he is in the same combat with the Incubi. This shouldn't change anything in this case, though.) However, he is only in B2B with Drazhar, and the IC rules state that he can only attack someone in B2B.

Drazhar, on the other hand, is also engaged with the Captain and the SM squad, but is in B2B with both of them. When it is his turn for initiative, he can freely choose to attack the squad or the Captain. So let's say that at the start of combat, Drazhar moves via his ability, making the setup thus:

C S S S SD
S I I I I I

Combat begins. Initiative 7, Drazhar elects to direct all of his attacks at the squad. Initiative 5, the Incubi elect to direct their attacks at the squad. The Captain, also initiative 5, now has to decide how to split his attacks between the units he is engaged with, which were determined at the start of combat to be Drazhar and the Incubi, and due to the rules on p.35, who he is engaged with does not change. So he is still engaged with them, but he does not allocate his attacks until now, his initiative step. Nobody is in B2B, so he has nobody to attack, even though he is still engaged. The rules on p.35, it should be noted, are for regular unit vs unit combats. When you add ICs to the mix, you no longer have that, you have a multiple combat. These additional rules on p.41 have to be considered in this case.

So I think my argument is that as long as Drazhar was engaged with both the IC and the squad before he moved, he can move at the start of combat (not before) and still attack the squad. Looking at the DE codex, it does state the he uses the ability 'at the beginning of any round of close combat in which [he] is involved,' so if it doesn't work this way then it seems like it wouldn't work at all.

Again, if this is wrong I'm totally fine with that, I just don't see why it can't work this way.

lledwey wrote:Right but the rules on pg. 35 don't say anything about who models are eligible to attack, just whether or not they are engaged and thus able to attack at all.

Of course, because those are just talking about fighting one unit. The rest of it comes from page 41, "Multiple Combats", and the FAQ'd errata of it in the main rulebook FAQ, and "Independent Characters & Assaults" on page 49.

So let's look at your example.

lledwey wrote:Looking at the rules on pg. 41, I can see a possible different interpretation that doesn't force you to move Drazhar before combat starts and still lets him fight. Under the heading 'ATTACKING':

"Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

So we declare who we are attacking immediately before rolling to hit, which means we do it at our initiative step.

In this example,

D = Drazhar
I = Incubi
S = Space Marine
C = Captain

So the Incubi and Drazhar charge in, and it looks like this:

C S S S S
DS I I I I I

The Captain and Drazhar are both engaged, and so are both able to make their attacks this combat as per the rules above. The Captain can, during his initiative step, choose who to swing at, the Incubi or Drazhar, since he is engaged in combat with both of them (Edit: looking at the diagram on p.49, I think that the Captain might ONLY be engaged with Drazhar, even though he is in the same combat with the Incubi. This shouldn't change anything in this case, though.) However, he is only in B2B with Drazhar, and the IC rules state that he can only attack someone in B2B.

Drazhar, on the other hand, is also engaged with the Captain and the SM squad, but is in B2B with both of them. When it is his turn for initiative, he can freely choose to attack the squad or the Captain. So let's say that at the start of combat, Drazhar moves via his ability, making the setup thus:

C S S S SD
S I I I I I

Combat begins. Initiative 7, Drazhar elects to direct all of his attacks at the squad. Initiative 5, the Incubi elect to direct their attacks at the squad. The Captain, also initiative 5, now has to decide how to split his attacks between the units he is engaged with, which were determined at the start of combat to be Drazhar and the Incubi, and due to the rules on p.35, who he is engaged with does not change. So he is still engaged with them, but he does not allocate his attacks until now, his initiative step. Nobody is in B2B, so he has nobody to attack, even though he is still engaged. The rules on p.35, it should be noted, are for regular unit vs unit combats. When you add ICs to the mix, you no longer have that, you have a multiple combat. These additional rules on p.41 have to be considered in this case.

So I think my argument is that as long as Drazhar was engaged with both the IC and the squad before he moved, he can move at the start of combat (not before) and still attack the squad. Looking at the DE codex, it does state the he uses the ability 'at the beginning of any round of close combat in which [he] is involved,' so if it doesn't work this way then it seems like it wouldn't work at all.

Again, if this is wrong I'm totally fine with that, I just don't see why it can't work this way.

Mostly right. Good analysis. However I think it's clear from reading the power itself, and how attack allocation and engaged units work, that he has to move before we determine which units can attack whom. If not, then in your example above, Drazhar would move, but be unable to attack the SM squad. He'd be stuck still fighting the Captain despite having been moved, and his power would be virtually meaningless.

Well I suppose it isn't a huge deal anyway as Drazhar isn't very commonly used.

lledwey wrote:Well I suppose it isn't a huge deal anyway as Drazhar isn't very commonly used.

Can i use him as Archon?
If yes how do i make the 2 swords to be gear wise.

I suppose you could use him as an Archon. Maybe give him one weapon of your choice in his main hand, and a Djinn Blade which I believe is just wargear that adds bonus attacks and not actually a weapon itself. TBH though, its probably better not to use a SC model as a regular Archon, would be confusing.

It is not completely useless. It can be used at the start of this round to set up attacks the next round.

Nothing in his rule says it happens First in the start of round, or that it happens before units determine who they can attack. We are stuck in a place where two things happen at the same time.

Right but look at the rules I quoted. You only determine who you are engaged with at the start. You don't decide who to attack until your initiative step. If Drazhar starts out engaged with he squad and the IC, he can still attack the squad even after moving.

The thing is too: it doesnt matter if his move happens before or after determining who is engaged. Going back to my example, if he moves before determining who is engaged, then the Captain cannot fight and Drazhar can hit the squad. If he moves after you determine who is engaged, then Drazhar can still hit the squad, and the Captain has nobody to allocate his attacks to at his initiative step.

You attack units you are engaged with. You can split attacks if engaged with multiple units. You determine who you are engaged with at the start of the assault. Drazhar moves at the start of the assault. They both happen at the same time. Nothing says which one happens first.

Right. So if Drazhar is engaged with the unit first and then moves, he can attack the unit as he is still engaged. If he moves before being engaged, he can still attack the unit, as now when you check to see who is engaged, he is in btb with the unit. Either way, he can attack the unit, which is what I've been saying.

You either check to see if he is engaged, lock that in, and then move him. He stays engaged because it happened first, and he can attack the unit as long as he is still in btb after moving.

OR

You move him, then check to see who is engaged. At this point, he becomes engaged with the unit as he is now in btb.

Either way, end result is him engaged with and able to attack the unit.

If Drazhars ability happens at the start of the turn. this comes first.

You determine who can fight at the start of the round of combat.


ERRATA
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before
any model attacked) were engaged with more than
one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one
of the enemy units, must attack that unit.
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
In all three bullet points, the word ‘combat’ will be
changed to ‘round of combat’

From 40K FAQ

Right, which is why in my example, at the start of combat Drazhar is touching the Captain and the squad. That is what would let him still attack the squad after he moved. If he was ONLY touching the Captain, then after he moved he would not be able to attack the squad.

DeathReaper wrote:If Drazhars ability happens at the start of the turn. this comes first.

You determine who can fight at the start of the round of combat.


ERRATA
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before
any model attacked) were engaged with more than
one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one
of the enemy units, must attack that unit.
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
In all three bullet points, the word ‘combat’ will be
changed to ‘round of combat’

From 40K FAQ

After assault moves have been made. Draz's ability seems to be an assault move.

It would help if we knew exactly how Drazhar ability is worded.

Hence why I said "If Drazhars ability..."

"At the begining of any round of close combat in which Drazahar is involved, he may move to any part of the same combat where there is room to place him. He must be placed in base-to-base contact with an enemy model and remain in coherency with any unit he has joined"


The way it is interpreted in the entire, sane, non rules lawyering world:

Before combat begins, move drazahar as you see fit (but maintain coherency with his unit, etc..) and then choose who he attacks and who attacks him.

this should not be an issue or problem at all.

Anglacon wrote:"At the begining of any round of close combat in which Drazahar is involved, he may move to any part of the same combat where there is room to place him. He must be placed in base-to-base contact with an enemy model and remain in coherency with any unit he has joined"


The way it is interpreted in the entire, sane, non rules lawyering world:

Before combat begins, move drazahar as you see fit (but maintain coherency with his unit, etc..) and then choose who he attacks and who attacks him.

this should not be an issue or problem at all.

You really leaped out there on your interpretation.



Just for clearaty I will try to write out what the combat looked like


Before move

TTA
LDA
AAA

After Move

TTA
L A
AAA
D

T= Termie
L = Libby
A= Assault Marine
D =Drazhar

Nothing in his rule says it is an assault move, Nothing says his move happens before checking to see what models are engaged. At the start you check to see which models are engaged. Those models may attack the units they are engaged with. You may not remove models to prevent a model from attacking. The only time a model is not allowed to attack while engaged, is if the entire unit(s) they are engaged with is wiped. In this example Drazhar is not destroyed, simply moved. Nothing in the rules says you cannot attack if you are no longer engaged when your Int comes around. In fact it says you can still attack.

If someone can point to a rule that says Drazhar's move happens before determing who is engaged, then thats different. BTW the arguement "Well if not then his ability is useless" is not a valid point. As i stated it can be used to set up for the next turn.

jbunny wrote: Nothing in his rule says it is an assault move, Nothing says his move happens before checking to see what models are engaged.

Well, his move is made at the beginning of a round of combat in which he is engaged, and the only way he could be engaged would be to have moved into close combat, and his rule says he must be placed in base contact with an enemy model. And the only time you can move into base contact with an enemy model is when making an assault move, then Drazhar's move must be an assault move.

jbunny wrote:At the start you check to see which models are engaged. Those models may attack the units they are engaged with.

That is correct. And you check which models are engaged after all moves have been made. Drazhar's special rule allows him to move during assault. It is after this point that you can now look and see who is engaged. If you look under "who can fight" you see that engaged models are "Models in base contact with any enemy models." After Drazhar makes his special move, you look to see who he is in base contact with.

jbunny wrote:You may not remove models to prevent a model from attacking. The only time a model is not allowed to attack while engaged, is if the entire unit(s) they are engaged with is wiped. In this example Drazhar is not destroyed, simply moved. Nothing in the rules says you cannot attack if you are no longer engaged when your Int comes around. In fact it says you can still attack.

Drazhar is not being 'removed', he is making an assault move. He is allowed to make it out of sequence by his special rule. And I can move models to prevent a certain model from attacking. The Assault rules say I must move the closest model into base contact with the closest enemy model. After that, I can move the rest of my unit in whatever order I wish (subject to the rest of the moving assaulting models rules). It is possible through movement to prevent a friendly or enemy model from attacking by utilizing impassable terrain features or the like. Divvicult, certainly, but possible.

jbunny wrote:If someone can point to a rule that says Drazhar's move happens before determing who is engaged, then thats different. BTW the arguement "Well if not then his ability is useless" is not a valid point. As i stated it can be used to set up for the next turn.

Because by rule, first you move assaulting models, then defender reacts, then you determine who can fight. Drazhar's special rule allows him to make an assault move at the beginning of the round of combat, That places him back at the "moving assaulting models" stage, which occurs before you determine who is engaged.

So by your logic Drazhar gets +1 attacks every round and benefits from FNP if he has enough Pain tokens since he is making an assault move???

jbunny wrote:So by your logic Drazhar gets +1 attacks every round and benefits from FNP if he has enough Pain tokens since he is making an assault move???

An assault move isn't the same as a charge. Defenders reacting, consolidation at the end, etc. are also assault moves.

jbunny wrote:At the start you check to see which models are engaged. Those models may attack the units they are engaged with. You may not remove models to prevent a model from attacking. The only time a model is not allowed to attack while engaged, is if the entire unit(s) they are engaged with is wiped. In this example Drazhar is not destroyed, simply moved. Nothing in the rules says you cannot attack if you are no longer engaged when your Int comes around. In fact it says you can still attack.

That last part, depending on how we look at the rule, you are never 'no longer engaged.' The rules state that you see if you are engaged at the start of combat, and that doesn't change. The question I've been asking is, if two ICs are engaged (sounding a bit suggestive here but oh well) but not in base contact via some crazy circumstance (like Drazhar's rule), why do you assume that they can still attack eachother. This isn't covered by the normal rules, because normally the only way one IC would end up out of base contact with the other is if he died first. ICs have to be in base contact to allocate their attacks, I just don't see why being engaged would change this.

You agree that even though it says 'engaged models make their full number of attacks', an IC can effectively lose his attacks if the models in base contact have died by the time his initiative step is up. It doesn't say that anywhere in the rules, but we don't assume that the IC now gets to attack something else out of base contact. In that case, the IC is still engaged, as you remain engaged for the remainder of that round no matter what. If everything around the IC dies, he is still engaged unless the combat is completely over. So we have a case where the IC is engaged but cannot attack. Why would it be any different with Drazhar moving? Again, I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I just want to understand your argument better.

The alternative is that time wizard is right, and his move is just a secondary assault move and thus happens before everything else, which I could buy but I still think the rule would work fine even if you moved him after everyone was engaged.