The End times and the state of the WH40k Universe

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**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

Necrons will not bother anyone when they get updated. Instead of "Must...Kill...All... living..." we get "Oh my, what a fun challenge! Lets try to conquer that and improve our conditions!" Basically they are the new Orks: they have the potential to destroy everything, but they won't, and because of that, pose no big threat to anyone.

And the Imperium is slowly recovering. If anything, the end times will concern the xenos. (in my opinion)

**iproxtaco**

So much wrong, can't resist.
The Necrons aren't the new Orkz. They can and have united, they were united before they went to sleep, they have characters who have taken it upon themselves to unite the Tomb Worlds, they have a unit who do the same thing. They conquer because they want to rule, not to improve their conditions if I'm correct in what you mean by that, and not to because the C'tan order them to.

This bit just wrong, so very wrong. Tell us how is the Imperium recovering?

**Omegus**

The Silent King wants to give his people back their corporeal forms. I'm guessing that's what is meant by "improving their condition".

Pilau Rice wrote:
However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instructions of a single monstrous and unfathomable Intelligence - the Hive Mind.

You are missing the point. Yes, though in completely separate parts of the galaxy, the Hive Fleets are not acting independently, but are rather part of the massive collective of the Hive Mind. Since Hive Fleets have actually been eradicated, however, the old fluff position that each hive fleet was just a tip of a much larger mass is no longer true. Basically, imagine an enormous squid composed of Tyranids, and the Hive Fleets each being just one of its many tentacles. That's what the Tyranids used to be. Now instead, each Hive Fleet is a separate grouping of Tyranids that is being centrally controlled by the Hive Mind. Their numbers are far smaller

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

iproxtaco wrote:So much wrong, can't resist.
The Necrons aren't the new Orkz. They can and have united, they were united before they went to sleep, they have characters who have taken it upon themselves to unite the Tomb Worlds, they have a unit who do the same thing. They conquer because they want to rule, not to improve their conditions if I'm correct in what you mean by that, and not to because the C'tan order them to.

This bit just wrong, so very wrong. Tell us how is the Imperium recovering?

The Necrons are nothing like they used to be. They used to be unkillable monsters, who mindlessly obeyed the C'tan, and were on a crusade to consume all life. The Silent King wants to give them back their "living" forms, thus "improving their condition". In other words, make them mortal and weak. I have read that the Lords even fight each other in order to gain more influence. They were a lot more menacing in the old fluff, now they are just like Orks: an extremely powerful force which has the potential to destroy everything, but fails to do so because of internal instability and rivaling Necron Lords. In the old fluff, they were united on a common cause (which was to eradicate all living). Now they just test their strategic skills, rival for power and pose a medium threat to other races. Like Orks, not organized enough to destroy everything on a scale which rivals the Tyranids.

The Imperium is recovering because in recent fluff it was said that the major Hive Fleets are already mostly beaten, and that only Splinters of these fllets remain. Without an all-consuming war, the IoM is able to recover slowly but surely. There are too few Eldar to stand a chance against it, the Orks are too disorganized to threaten it majorly, the Tau are just waiting to be consumed by a Hive Fleet, and Chaos is unable to breach the Cadian gate. Sure, there are things like the Golden Throne malfunctioning, but the future at least looks more stable for the IoM.

**Durza**

One Hive Fleet was re-routed by murdering hundreds of planets. The Eldar are at roughly the same number they've been at for a long time, the Orks are a threat even without organisation and Chaos just did breach the Cadian gate. I'd like to see your idea of the Imperium getting worse.

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

Durza wrote:One Hive Fleet was re-routed by murdering hundreds of planets. The Eldar are at roughly the same number they've been at for a long time, the Orks are a threat even without organisation and Chaos just did breach the Cadian gate. I'd like to see your idea of the Imperium getting worse.

But then again, the IoM has millions of planets. The Orks are a threat, yes. But not one that could unite and destroy everything, like Nids. I didn't say they posed no threat, just that they are not that menacing as the Tyranids used to be. Yeah Chaos got a foothold on Cadia, but now they are without reinforcements and the Imperium has almost total control of the space/air, and are free to bomb them back to the Warp. I don't exactly call that a victory. Now that the Tyranid menace is under control, Cadia can be liberated in some point for sure.

**Durza**

Chaos uses tactics too obscure for a sane mind to comprehend. They probably want to be cut off for some reason... or not. But they'll enjoy it either way.

And liberating Cadia from Chaos is going to be as difficult as taking Chaos. Not to mention that bringing forces against Cadia would just weaken the Imperium's hold elsewhere.

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

Durza wrote:Chaos uses tactics too obscure for a sane mind to comprehend. They probably want to be cut off for some reason... or not. But they'll enjoy it either way.

And liberating Cadia from Chaos is going to be as difficult as taking Chaos. Not to mention that bringing forces against Cadia would just weaken the Imperium's hold elsewhere.

Well, Cadia still has major hives fighting the forces of Chaos, and the Imperium has survived worse. (eg. Tarsis Ultra, Armageddon, Goge Vandire)

**Durza**

Cadia is different. It's a cornerstone holding up the reinforced concrete wall keeping the heretics out. Now it's cracking and soon everyone will be heretical and stuff.

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

Durza wrote:Cadia is different. It's a cornerstone holding up the reinforced concrete wall keeping the heretics out. Now it's cracking and soon everyone will be heretical and stuff.

But it is still the most important planet in the Imperium (aside from Holy Terra itself) and they would gladly sacrifice a hundred worlds just to save this one. Abbadon is pretty incompetent, considering that he has tried to conquer it 13 times always to fail miserably. This Black Crusade, however, has given him a chance at least.

**Durza**

You've just said that it's the second most important planet in the Imperium, which they would sacrifice a hundred others to save. How does it make Abaddon incompetent to not have captured it until now if that's true?
Also, this Black Crusade is the thirteenth, which means he hasn't failed thirteen times. And the majority of Black Crusades weren't aimed at Cadia. And they all succeeded to the extent that he was offered daemonhood at the conclusion of each and every one.

**iproxtaco**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:So much wrong, can't resist.
The Necrons aren't the new Orkz. They can and have united, they were united before they went to sleep, they have characters who have taken it upon themselves to unite the Tomb Worlds, they have a unit who do the same thing. They conquer because they want to rule, not to improve their conditions if I'm correct in what you mean by that, and not to because the C'tan order them to.

This bit just wrong, so very wrong. Tell us how is the Imperium recovering?

The Necrons are nothing like they used to be. They used to be unkillable monsters, who mindlessly obeyed the C'tan, and were on a crusade to consume all life. The Silent King wants to give them back their "living" forms, thus "improving their condition". In other words, make them mortal and weak. I have read that the Lords even fight each other in order to gain more influence. They were a lot more menacing in the old fluff, now they are just like Orks: an extremely powerful force which has the potential to destroy everything, but fails to do so because of internal instability and rivaling Necron Lords. In the old fluff, they were united on a common cause (which was to eradicate all living). Now they just test their strategic skills, rival for power and pose a medium threat to other races. Like Orks, not organized enough to destroy everything on a scale which rivals the Tyranids.

You're still ignoring the fact that they've been united throughout their entire history. Even going into stasis was a unified act, they were meant to wake up at the same time, things have gone belly-up. They have the capablity to become a single force again whereas the Orkz don't.

The Imperium is recovering because in recent fluff it was said that the major Hive Fleets are already mostly beaten, and that only Splinters of these fllets remain.

This is bull-gak.

Without an all-consuming war, the IoM is able to recover slowly but surely.

The problem being that there is an all-consuming war.

There are too few Eldar to stand a chance against it

Their numbers have remained relatively stable, they still pose a major threat, considering numbers are never something they try to use as an advantage.

the Orks are too disorganized to threaten it majorly,

The Orkz don't need to be under one big Waaagh! to cause major harm to the Imperium. Armageddon?

the Tau are just waiting to be consumed by a Hive Fleet,

Waiting is a key word here. They haven't been consumed, and aren't close to being consumed. The more other threats draw the attention of the Imperium, the stronger the Tau get. 13th Black Crusade is evidence enough.

and Chaos is unable to breach the Cadian gate.

Cadia is lost to the Imperium. No, Chaos has not gained control of it fully, but there's no conceivable way they're going to be able to divert resources to move the forces of Abaddon. Anyway, Cadia, whilst clearly the linch-pin in the defense of the Eye, isn't the only planet in the Gate, and I know for a fact Chaos had gained control of many of these. Cadia isn't the only battleground, and the Crusade is very much ongoing.

Sure, there are things like the Golden Throne malfunctioning, but the future at least looks more stable for the IoM.

No it doesn't. They've been on the knifes edge for the last ten years, and the story hasn't advanced for as long. There is no recovery, the entire point of 40k is that the Imperium is failing, I don't understand how that was missed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
Durza wrote:Chaos uses tactics too obscure for a sane mind to comprehend. They probably want to be cut off for some reason... or not. But they'll enjoy it either way.

And liberating Cadia from Chaos is going to be as difficult as taking Chaos. Not to mention that bringing forces against Cadia would just weaken the Imperium's hold elsewhere.

Well, Cadia still has major hives fighting the forces of Chaos, and the Imperium has survived worse. (eg. Tarsis Ultra, Armageddon, Goge Vandire)

What? Tarsis Ultra is more important that the 13th Black Crusade, I see. Is that why only two companies of Astartes were present compared to the 30 or so entire Chapters at the Cadian Gate?

**Harriticus**

I don't get why people are saying the Hive Fleets are mostly finished. 5th edition 'Nid dex makes it clear the Hive Fleets encountered thus far are just a "splinter" of a "far greater assemblage".

I think the Imperium is slowly recovering though despite this due to the alleviation of the Necron threat given the latest codex. That was a huge burden and has probably saved them from the edge.

**Ascalam**

They get hung up on the word 'last' and insist it means last ever, rather than last spotted thus far..

**Battle Brother Ambrosius**

iproxtaco wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:So much wrong, can't resist.
The Necrons aren't the new Orkz. They can and have united, they were united before they went to sleep, they have characters who have taken it upon themselves to unite the Tomb Worlds, they have a unit who do the same thing. They conquer because they want to rule, not to improve their conditions if I'm correct in what you mean by that, and not to because the C'tan order them to.

This bit just wrong, so very wrong. Tell us how is the Imperium recovering?

The Necrons are nothing like they used to be. They used to be unkillable monsters, who mindlessly obeyed the C'tan, and were on a crusade to consume all life. The Silent King wants to give them back their "living" forms, thus "improving their condition". In other words, make them mortal and weak. I have read that the Lords even fight each other in order to gain more influence. They were a lot more menacing in the old fluff, now they are just like Orks: an extremely powerful force which has the potential to destroy everything, but fails to do so because of internal instability and rivaling Necron Lords. In the old fluff, they were united on a common cause (which was to eradicate all living). Now they just test their strategic skills, rival for power and pose a medium threat to other races. Like Orks, not organized enough to destroy everything on a scale which rivals the Tyranids.

You're still ignoring the fact that they've been united throughout their entire history. Even going into stasis was a unified act, they were meant to wake up at the same time, things have gone belly-up. They have the capablity to become a single force again whereas the Orkz don't.
Yes, in the old days. Read the rumored fluff. They are different now.

The Imperium is recovering because in recent fluff it was said that the major Hive Fleets are already mostly beaten, and that only Splinters of these fllets remain.

This is bull-gak. Read the new Tyranid fluff

Without an all-consuming war, the IoM is able to recover slowly but surely.

The problem being that there is an all-consuming war.
Yes, but nothing compared to the Tyranid invasions.

There are too few Eldar to stand a chance against it

Their numbers have remained relatively stable, they still pose a major threat, considering numbers are never something they try to use as an advantage.
A threat? Yes. A gigantic, colossal, doomsday- threat? No.

the Orks are too disorganized to threaten it majorly,

The Orkz don't need to be under one big Waaagh! to cause major harm to the Imperium. Armageddon?
Ghazkull is an exception. And he was repelled. Didn't destroy many worlds like the hive fleets did.

the Tau are just waiting to be consumed by a Hive Fleet,

Waiting is a key word here. They haven't been consumed, and aren't close to being consumed. The more other threats draw the attention of the Imperium, the stronger the Tau get. 13th Black Crusade is evidence enough.
No they are not. But all it really requires is a large fleet and they are gone.

and Chaos is unable to breach the Cadian gate.

Cadia is lost to the Imperium. No, Chaos has not gained control of it fully, but there's no conceivable way they're going to be able to divert resources to move the forces of Abaddon. Anyway, Cadia, whilst clearly the linch-pin in the defense of the Eye, isn't the only planet in the Gate, and I know for a fact Chaos had gained control of many of these. Cadia isn't the only battleground, and the Crusade is very much ongoing.
Yes, but the Imperium will find the resources to drive him back. Losing would mean losing the war.

Sure, there are things like the Golden Throne malfunctioning, but the future at least looks more stable for the IoM.

No it doesn't. They've been on the knifes edge for the last ten years, and the story hasn't advanced for as long. There is no recovery, the entire point of 40k is that the Imperium is failing, I don't understand how that was missed.
I didn't mean the IoM got off the hook, just that it doesn't need to worry about the Nids as much as it used to. It is falling, yes. But not extremely rapidly, when the Nids don't consume hundreds of worlds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
Durza wrote:Chaos uses tactics too obscure for a sane mind to comprehend. They probably want to be cut off for some reason... or not. But they'll enjoy it either way.

And liberating Cadia from Chaos is going to be as difficult as taking Chaos. Not to mention that bringing forces against Cadia would just weaken the Imperium's hold elsewhere.

Well, Cadia still has major hives fighting the forces of Chaos, and the Imperium has survived worse. (eg. Tarsis Ultra, Armageddon, Goge Vandire)

What? Tarsis Ultra is more important that the 13th Black Crusade, I see. Is that why only two companies of Astartes were present compared to the 30 or so entire Chapters at the Cadian Gate?

**Pilau Rice**

Omegus wrote:
You are missing the point. Yes, though in completely separate parts of the galaxy, the Hive Fleets are not acting independently, but are rather part of the massive collective of the Hive Mind. Since Hive Fleets have actually been eradicated, however, the old fluff position that each hive fleet was just a tip of a much larger mass is no longer true. Basically, imagine an enormous squid composed of Tyranids, and the Hive Fleets each being just one of its many tentacles. That's what the Tyranids used to be. Now instead, each Hive Fleet is a separate grouping of Tyranids that is being centrally controlled by the Hive Mind. Their numbers are far smaller

No I am not, that is the way in which the Magos Biologis see's them, as separate entities, when in fact they are one giant Hive with the ones encountered being the vanguard. The codex even says that.

**Omegus**

The Magos Biologis seem them as separate entities because the various hive fleets have different gene strains and thus have to be approached differently (see Kryptman's solution for an example).

Again, for the last time, before each Hive Fleet had no end... you could kill as many as you wanted, you might even slightly redirect its flow, but there were always more and more and more. Now, each Hive fleet is just a large grouping of Tyranids, and most have been utterly eradicated one by one.

**Pilau Rice**

There always more and more Leviathan, Scylla, Charybdis, all the same thing but different names due to classification.

And if that's the case explain how Jormungandr is expected to reawaken or how Kraken is back and so possibly is Colossus, eradication my foot.

**iproxtaco**

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:So much wrong, can't resist.
The Necrons aren't the new Orkz. They can and have united, they were united before they went to sleep, they have characters who have taken it upon themselves to unite the Tomb Worlds, they have a unit who do the same thing. They conquer because they want to rule, not to improve their conditions if I'm correct in what you mean by that, and not to because the C'tan order them to.

This bit just wrong, so very wrong. Tell us how is the Imperium recovering?

The Necrons are nothing like they used to be. They used to be unkillable monsters, who mindlessly obeyed the C'tan, and were on a crusade to consume all life. The Silent King wants to give them back their "living" forms, thus "improving their condition". In other words, make them mortal and weak. I have read that the Lords even fight each other in order to gain more influence. They were a lot more menacing in the old fluff, now they are just like Orks: an extremely powerful force which has the potential to destroy everything, but fails to do so because of internal instability and rivaling Necron Lords. In the old fluff, they were united on a common cause (which was to eradicate all living). Now they just test their strategic skills, rival for power and pose a medium threat to other races. Like Orks, not organized enough to destroy everything on a scale which rivals the Tyranids.

You're still ignoring the fact that they've been united throughout their entire history. Even going into stasis was a unified act, they were meant to wake up at the same time, things have gone belly-up. They have the capablity to become a single force again whereas the Orkz don't.

Yes, in the old days. Read the rumored fluff. They are different now.

This is the rumored fluff, you must be reading something completely different.

The Imperium is recovering because in recent fluff it was said that the major Hive Fleets are already mostly beaten, and that only Splinters of these fllets remain.

This is bull-gak.
Read the new Tyranid fluff

I have read it, and this is bull-gak.

Without an all-consuming war, the IoM is able to recover slowly but surely.

The problem being that there is an all-consuming war.

Yes, but nothing compared to the Tyranid invasions.

That doesn't make sense. The whole galaxy is at war, it's like the Imperium is spinning plates, but there's not enough time to keep them all going, some plates are smashing.

There are too few Eldar to stand a chance against it

Their numbers have remained relatively stable, they still pose a major threat, considering numbers are never something they try to use as an advantage.

A threat? Yes. A gigantic, colossal, doomsday- threat? No.

Not everything has to be this gigantic doomsday threat like the Tyranids or the Necrons. The Eldar are more than capable of causing huge amounts of irreversible damage.

the Orks are too disorganized to threaten it majorly,

The Orkz don't need to be under one big Waaagh! to cause major harm to the Imperium. Armageddon?

Ghazkull is an exception. And he was repelled. Didn't destroy many worlds like the hive fleets did.

Ghazkull is not an exception. There have been countless Warbosses throughout the ages that have destroyed the Imperium's worlds, and Armaggedon is very much still a battlefield that draws Ork hordes like an insect light.

the Tau are just waiting to be consumed by a Hive Fleet,

Waiting is a key word here. They haven't been consumed, and aren't close to being consumed. The more other threats draw the attention of the Imperium, the stronger the Tau get. 13th Black Crusade is evidence enough.

No they are not. But all it really requires is a large fleet and they are gone.

You have no point.

and Chaos is unable to breach the Cadian gate.

Cadia is lost to the Imperium. No, Chaos has not gained control of it fully, but there's no conceivable way they're going to be able to divert resources to move the forces of Abaddon. Anyway, Cadia, whilst clearly the linch-pin in the defense of the Eye, isn't the only planet in the Gate, and I know for a fact Chaos had gained control of many of these. Cadia isn't the only battleground, and the Crusade is very much ongoing.

Yes, but the Imperium will find the resources to drive him back. Losing would mean losing the war.

No they will not.

Sure, there are things like the Golden Throne malfunctioning, but the future at least looks more stable for the IoM.

No it doesn't. They've been on the knifes edge for the last ten years, and the story hasn't advanced for as long. There is no recovery, the entire point of 40k is that the Imperium is failing, I don't understand how that was missed.

I didn't mean the IoM got off the hook, just that it doesn't need to worry about the Nids as much as it used to. It is falling, yes. But not extremely rapidly, when the Nids don't consume hundreds of worlds.

They do consume hundreds of worlds, and you just conceded the argument.