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I don't want to derail the thread, but while we're on the topic I just have a quick question regarding the Catachan's skin tone. It's a bit confusing that they are all Caucasian in the artwork and interpretations of their models, while they have lived on a Death World covered in jungle for millenia, while history would dictate that they should at least be darker skinned. If they were white when they settled on Catachan surely they would have adapted to the climate since then, or is it just that they are themed on the Vietnam War?

In answer to the OP's question, Nocturn would likely have its own PDF but I would spectulate that much of its human defence may be comprised of regiments from other planets. I would have a few squads or individuals originating from Noctune but not the entire army.

Deathly Angel wrote:I don't want to derail the thread, but while we're on the topic I just have a quick question regarding the Catachan's skin tone. It's a bit confusing that they are all Caucasian in the artwork and interpretations of their models, while they have lived on a Death World covered in jungle for millenia, while history would dictate that they should at least be darker skinned. If they were white when they settled on Catachan surely they would have adapted to the climate since then, or is it just that they are themed on the Vietnam War?

We don't know when/how/why Catachan was colonized. Could have been fairly recently.

In answer to the OP's question, Nocturne would likely have its own PDF but I would spectulate that much of its human defence may be comprised of regiments from other planets.

Not really. Chapters defend their homeworlds, it's a point of honor for them.
Very few Chapter homeworlds actually are what one would call highly civilized. The majority are either purposely or through circumstances beyond their control kept within a pre-firearms level of technology.

Ultramar is considered "unique" in that they have a PDF which trains regularly alongside of the Ultramarines, and Rynn's World(home of the Crimson Fists) had something similar.

Mostly one can assume that the Chapter homeworlds have little in the way of 'full armies' simply because of the fallout from the Horus Heresy which saw the Guard, Navy, and Astartes separated where Astartes cannot command the Guard/Navy.

I would have a few squads or guardsmen coming from Noctune but not the entire army.

Nope. Chapter worlds are immune from tithing. If the Munitorum starts sucking away potential recruits, gak hits the fan fast.

Kanluwen wrote:
Nope. Chapter worlds are immune from tithing. If the Munitorum starts sucking away potential recruits, gak hits the fan fast.

This really hits the nail on the head.

Ultimately, the Astartes rule their worlds, utterly and without question. The populations main duty is to support them and provide Aspirants for the chapter.

The munitorum has ZERO sway, and Nocturne natives wouldn't be able to join up of their own volition becase a) They don't have the training or tech level b) There is nowhere to join up...no guard regiments or recruiters and c) The Salamanders probably wouldn't want them to.

On the subject of the lack of racial diversity in painted armies, it seems to me that while you could paint the guys any colour you like the features of the models are sculpted in a Euro-centric Caucasian way.

I know that is a generalisation but does anyone else see that?

Put them on a neighboring planet.

No astartes rules. There you go.

BluntmanDC wrote:

daveNYC wrote:You want one, make one. Say it's a company sized group of Nocturnians who failed whatever hoops the Salamanders make recruits jump through, but didn't die (say it was early in testing, when the trials aren't so fatal).

Problems with this idea:
1. most chapters only trial small numbers of boys every recruitment phase (sometimes once a 100 years) so the number of living failed applicants will be tiny.
2. the Salamaders are a small chapter, so recruitment is even lower than normal, it would take millenia for a company sized amout of failed applicants.
3. most chapter worlds of higher tech and understanding of the IoM provide their full support of the Emperor in servicing the chapter, so IG recruitment would seem odd.
4. those that fail the trails for whatever reason are still 'property' of a chapter. so depending on how well they survived they will either become serfs or servitors.

1. From the bits I remember about Blood Angel recruitment, I think they actually start off with a few hundred asprants, and then they get weeded down quite quickly. Given the rather tough requirements to be considered for implantation, plus the chance that the implantation would fail, I don't think that any chapter would have trials for just ten or twenty candidates. Plus, according to wiki, a company is between 80 and 225 soldiers, so that's not exactly crazy numbers. Of course a company in 40k probably means something completely different.
2. Salamanders have I think seven chapters with 120 marines? Small, but not insanely so.
3. Not recruitment by the IG, they're volunteering.
4. I think that depends on the chapter though. Given the Salamander's reputation as the 'nice' chapter, it's not much of a stretch to make this work.

BluntmanDC wrote:is is a misunderstanding of the evolution of skin colour in relation to the sun, and also about light levels in the artic.
...stuff...

You left out diet, which is actually the key here. The Inuit diet is high in vitamin D, fatty fish and seals. That's the reason for the darker skin color.

Deathly Angel wrote:question regarding the Catachan's skin tone. It's a bit confusing that they are all Caucasian in the artwork and interpretations of their models, while they have lived on a Death World covered in jungle for millenia, while history would dictate that they should at least be darker skinned. If they were white when they settled on Catachan surely they would have adapted to the climate since then.

Catachans have never been depicted as a white only force by GW, Codex Catachan has a black skinned Catachan on the cover. Catachans are made up of a mix of racial groups as seen in 'eavy metal models and studio art.

Also no evidence has shown that darker skin is an advantageous trait in a jungle enviroment, in the thick jungles of Catachan there wouldn't be much sun light getting to the ground so being light skinned wouldn't be a bad a thing. History cannot be seen as useful as there is no historical evidence of Caucasians moving to jungles and getting darker over generations due to natural selection.

Deathly Angel wrote:In answer to the OP's question, Nocturn would likely have its own PDF but I would spectulate that much of its human defence may be comprised of regiments from other planets. I would have a few squads or individuals originating from Noctune but not the entire army.

A standard Space Marine world would not have a PDF, and even one that did (see Ultramarines/Crimson fists due to the fact that they are situated unusually on hive worlds) would be loathed to the fact of having outside interference such as IG troops

daveNYC wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
You want one, make one. Say it's a company sized group of Nocturnians who failed whatever hoops the Salamanders make recruits jump through, but didn't die (say it was early in testing, when the trials aren't so fatal).

Problems with this idea:
1. most chapters only trial small numbers of boys every recruitment phase (sometimes once a 100 years) so the number of living failed applicants will be tiny.
2. the Salamaders are a small chapter, so recruitment is even lower than normal, it would take millenia for a company sized amout of failed applicants.
3. most chapter worlds of higher tech and understanding of the IoM provide their full support of the Emperor in servicing the chapter, so IG recruitment would seem odd.
4. those that fail the trails for whatever reason are still 'property' of a chapter. so depending on how well they survived they will either become serfs or servitors.

1. From the bits I remember about Blood Angel recruitment, I think they actually start off with a few hundred asprants, and then they get weeded down quite quickly. Given the rather tough requirements to be considered for implantation, plus the chance that the implantation would fail, I don't think that any chapter would have trials for just ten or twenty candidates. Plus, according to wiki, a company is between 80 and 225 soldiers, so that's not exactly crazy numbers. Of course a company in 40k probably means something completely different.
2. Salamanders have I think seven chapters with 120 marines? Small, but not insanely so.
3. Not recruitment by the IG, they're volunteering.
4. I think that depends on the chapter though. Given the Salamander's reputation as the 'nice' chapter, it's not much of a stretch to make this work.

1.Salamader recruitment is covered in Index Astartes, they only trial small numbers, far lower than a few hundered. There wouldn't be enough starting recruits to make a company let alone those that fail and live to an extent that they are usefull to the IG
2. As you say they are not insanely small, but even so it still does not make a difference in countering the point on the chapters slow uptake of recruits (they have remained at a consitant lower number since the Horus Heresy, this means they have a lower than standard recruitment).
3. but they would still be 'volunteering' to the IG, which is still recruiting into a none chapter related body and would still be very odd to Noctunian man and would be very odd for a chapter to allow a human member of its world to go off world.
4. Salamanders are a more caring chapter but they still require servitors and serfs and this is were they get them from.

As a secondary point it also makes little sense for the IG to accept a 10 or so men from a world as the effort it takes to get those men to a transport vessel, to a Navy ship and on a battle ground is far more than the actual troops value. The IG recruit in the thousands for a reason, it makes logistical sense to do so.