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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!

Sure man... I'm baked like an apple pie right now... Ya know, those lootas don't do that much looting... maybe they should call them.. Shootas? Heh.. ahaha... God, i love you guys...

What about if burna boys had a point increase but became immune to flamers due to years of setting light to each other?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
or they had increased armour saves against things like flamers, heavy flamers and meltas due to their armour which is they designed so they don't get burned or because they are often set alight by their greenskin brethren

Flame based weapons (going by fluff like the Plasma Syphon), require -1 to wound, so 4+ would become 5+?

I rather doubt that burna boyz would be anymore protected to fire then other boyz would be. In any case, they should be MORE vunerable to fire, because they are caring around barrels of karosine. It syas in the burna boy entry that a stray bullet turns them into a crackle conflaguration.

Pyriel- wrote:

Because devastators do not ignore everything else while dedicating their entire existence to the destruction of vehicles?

They can for example, take anti infantry weapons, and also fire at infantry if they choose to.

They would not spend the time an Ork does having Mek boyz customize their weapon to the point an Ork would, in an effort to make it the best anti tank weapon possible.

Who would have the tank hunters rule if not for a group or orks who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles?

Flawed points.
The SM weapon is by far more superior then the ork rokkit, how anyone can claim otherwise is beyond me.
A lascannon reaches further and does more damage, a multimelta takes down heavy armour better and the missile launcher reaches further and hits better.

As for training the SM win hands down, the ork doesnt spend 22 hours a day occupied with hardcore training. If you ever read any fluff, be it canon or BL you would understand there is a ton of difference between an orks skill and that of the SM.

Really your using flawed view points. Training is important yes, but every living Ork, has a boat load of actual battle experience. The ones that dont, are the ones the die, and very quickly too. So Sure, your SM devs might have alot more simulator time then the average tunkbusta, but the average tank busta has far more battle experience, as far as blowing a tank apart goes. Youve got to realize that Orks that specialize in something, like Tankbustas, are fanatical about it, they dont just pick up rokkits and hammers and thats it. Its their entire life obsession. So yea, I can easily see why tankbustas would get the tankhunters USR. Your thinking way to much like a SM fan, pretending that they are far superior then anything and therefore if they dont have it, no one else should.

Besides, Devs aren't even dedicated AT. Sure you could Sally up with MM and LC combo, but then you have the Crimson Fist loadout of 4 HB. You could go Anti TEQ, with 4 Plas Cannons. all rounder with MLs. Or a mix.

Besides, i'm fairly sure that in the fluff, devestators are most often space marines who just got finished being scouts, and need to get some battlefield experiance but making sure not to throw them right into the fray where they will die. So really, they probably don't have too much experiance outside of target practice, unless they were the guy in the scout squad who always held the meltagun, but that still doesn't account for much at all. Tankbustas spend every waking hour figuring out how to shoot up a tank better, and get a bunch more battlefield experiance then dev squads. Dev squads are always temporary, and will eventually become tac squads.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!

I guess I just have this idea that to be anti tank you must be able to actually kill any tank.

Lootas are more anti light vehicle/walker. They are only str 7. They can't even glance a land raider or monolith and only penetrate the sides of battle wagons and leman russ.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

Frothmog wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!

I guess I just have this idea that to be anti tank you must be able to actually kill any tank.

Lootas are more anti light vehicle/walker. They are only str 7. They can't even glance a land raider or monolith and only penetrate the sides of battle wagons and leman russ.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

How are you saying this? Armour value 14 is a weakness of the ork codex and always has been. Saying something is bad anti-tank because it can't kill a landraider is ridiculous. It isn't all that hard to get a side shot on a battlewagon, and no-one really takes leman russes anyways. I haven't read the necron codex yet, but i'm assuming that the two vehicles without shielding are the transports, which is fine, lootas couldn't kill monoliths anyway, and adding anouther unit that they can't kill doesn't make them bad.

You think Lootas should become actual heavy support, and be given a STR8 shot instead? I havnt played tested the idea at all, so it could be OP really, but it would at least give them a chance to glance AV14

I like my lootas in the elite slot. It makes core ork lists very hard to build when you put them in the heavy support. They are just fine. There is a reason we see them in every ork list. If we put them in heavy, then the whole codex go entirely out of wack.

loota boy wrote:

Frothmog wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!

I guess I just have this idea that to be anti tank you must be able to actually kill any tank.

Lootas are more anti light vehicle/walker. They are only str 7. They can't even glance a land raider or monolith and only penetrate the sides of battle wagons and leman russ.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

How are you saying this? Armour value 14 is a weakness of the ork codex and always has been. Saying something is bad anti-tank because it can't kill a landraider is ridiculous. It isn't all that hard to get a side shot on a battlewagon, and no-one really takes leman russes anyways. I haven't read the necron codex yet, but i'm assuming that the two vehicles without shielding are the transports, which is fine, lootas couldn't kill monoliths anyway, and adding anouther unit that they can't kill doesn't make them bad.

Actually, the Ghost Ark does have Sheilding.

And just for the record, most armies would kill for a Flying AV 3 Chimera, only with better lasguns, and the guys can shoot out, adbnd make you warriors get back up.

loota boy wrote:

Frothmog wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!

I guess I just have this idea that to be anti tank you must be able to actually kill any tank.

Lootas are more anti light vehicle/walker. They are only str 7. They can't even glance a land raider or monolith and only penetrate the sides of battle wagons and leman russ.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

How are you saying this? Armour value 14 is a weakness of the ork codex and always has been. Saying something is bad anti-tank because it can't kill a landraider is ridiculous. It isn't all that hard to get a side shot on a battlewagon, and no-one really takes leman russes anyways. I haven't read the necron codex yet, but i'm assuming that the two vehicles without shielding are the transports, which is fine, lootas couldn't kill monoliths anyway, and adding anouther unit that they can't kill doesn't make them bad.

I never said Lootas suck.

Someone you quoted earlier seemed confused when I was talking about tank bustas sucking and thought I said lootas. Perhaps he does not know there is a difference, or he was already high.

Lootas are good at their role. It just isn't high AV targets. Tank bustas would fill that role a little better if they didn't suck.

One of the two is the Immortals transport. The other is the one with the Deathray thing that is like a Railgun from hell.

The regular warriors transport does have it. Also all of the vehicles in the list are AV 11 on the rear... so much for glancing things to death with basic boyz/marines, or any other str 4 weapon.

Ok, but just because necrons have quantum shielding doesn't make lootas bad. That's a ridiculous assumption. Necrons are still generally bad in cc, ommiting a few units that can't really be taken en masse. We can still krump um good an' propa.

Pity we Nids can't have a good munch on therm. A few Tesla Carbines? That's a dead Termagnat brood that is!

A few Tesla Cannons? That's a dead Carnifex brood that is!

A Tesla Destructor?! That's a dead Hive Fleet right there!

Tac squad - 1 heavy weapon
Dev squad - 4 heavy weapon and signum

Yea... they don't get nothing over a tac squad...

Doesn't having more C4 make a larger explosion than having less C4? Do Orks or Space Marines even use C4? Are you trying to hard to find a reason why Tank Busta's cannot have tank hunters? I can name dozens of reasons as to why they should.

This is such a silly discussion. You even admit that they suck at being anti tank. You are totally wrong about that making them more fun to play.

That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Like having +1 str would even matter. They would still miss everything, and it wouldn't even apply to the tank hammer because it is already str 10. The only difference it would make is that they might actually kill something instead of being entirely worthless. Couldn't have that. Then they may be almost half as good as a squad of devastators...

No they dont get anything over a tac squad, same weapon, same statline, same lack of abilities. Just 3 more heavy weapons.
Comparing this to tankbustas vs boy squads where 30 boys can take 3 rokkits and tankbustas take as many as they want plus can benefit from taking meks so yeah, tankbustas get more vs their troop choices then the SM dev does.
How you missed this I cannot fathom!

C4 was just an example but I guess it was still to hard for you.
My point, again *sigh* was that bigger doesnt equal better as "someone" tried to point out to me. Reread what I wrote and this time at least try to take it in its context.

Yes I think tankbustas suck vs tanks and I think it was GWs intention to make them have to slog it or drive towards enemy tanks along with all the other infantry orks in a big mass of bodies.

Anti tank IS, no matter if you like it or not, the main weakness with orks. You cannot take that weakness away either. Every army gets one or more weakneses, the new GKs get crappy range on most things as their main weakness and you dont see people scream for that one to be removed. Dark eldar get fragility as their and you dont see people scream about their paper thin bananaboats needing AV13 just because something sucks do you.

...at least the tankbustas can move/drive and shoot, the devs need to be perfectly still and cost a helluva more per model in a metagame that crawls with AP3+ weaponry and plates.
There is a reason almost no one uses SM devs outside space pups.

Really your using flawed view points. Training is important yes, but every living Ork, has a boat load of actual battle experience. The ones that dont, are the ones the die, and very quickly too. So Sure, your SM devs might have alot more simulator time then the average tunkbusta, but the average tank busta has far more battle experience, as far as blowing a tank apart goes. Youve got to realize that Orks that specialize in something, like Tankbustas, are fanatical about it, they dont just pick up rokkits and hammers and thats it. Its their entire life obsession. So yea, I can easily see why tankbustas would get the tankhunters USR. Your thinking way to much like a SM fan, pretending that they are far superior then anything and therefore if they dont have it, no one else should.

You just acted the same way like you accused me of, pretending orks are better like a ork fan, congrats
Any source btw on marines not being in combat enough or orks being better at everything from birth then super soldiers who train and wage war 22 hours a day? (3:ed rule book)

I'm eagerly awaiting something saying that a tankbusta is so skilled that he eats SM devs for breakfast while miraculously still having the aim of a drunk mushroom and practicing the release of squigs that on a constant basis blow his buddies up almost as much as the enemy (nice survival rate there) plus drapes himself in leathers on a violent battlefield (really nice survival rate for those super skilled 200+ year old tankbustas with you know, tons of experience).

Dark heresy/rouge trader/deathwatch have some very nice ork backgrounds and fluff you might want to check up on btw and I mean that in a sincere manner, awesome background and rules and lots of things explained. I think you'll like it very much.

Besides, Devs aren't even dedicated AT. Sure you could Sally up with MM and LC combo, but then you have the Crimson Fist loadout of 4 HB. You could go Anti TEQ, with 4 Plas Cannons. all rounder with MLs. Or a mix.

To bad things differ so much between fluff and tabletop rules. Both devs and tankbustas need some form of buff since almost nobody ever use them.
Now with the rumored drop in coversave with 6:ed tankbustas will be utterly worthless:( (and so will devs)

Besides, i'm fairly sure that in the fluff, devestators are most often space marines who just got finished being scouts, and need to get some battlefield experiance but making sure not to throw them right into the fray where they will die. So really, they probably don't have too much experiance outside of target practice, unless they were the guy in the scout squad who always held the meltagun, but that still doesn't account for much at all. Tankbustas spend every waking hour figuring out how to shoot up a tank better, and get a bunch more battlefield experiance then dev squads. Dev squads are always temporary, and will eventually become

Read up on SM backgrounds, various IA articles are the best sources.
Dont mix up scouts with gakking DoW pc games where they are as good as a pair of nekkid grots with blindfolds.

Marines take extreme care in their initiate selection and initiates are the few best individuals on entire warlike planetary populations. The survivers who have gone through hell to prove they can be trusted with the geneseed are slowly being transformed to scouts. They dont lie on a couch all day, initiation into battlebrother takes between 8 years and up to 50 (rulebook, Abnett, Mcneil) depending on urgency due to casualties and this time the scouts are further weeded out by constant training and battle missions.
Scouts are tasked to perform the most dangerous missions by themselves with no support behind enemy lines (codex, cant remember exact ed though) so the few who survive can be considered to be truly trusted with the chapters geneseed.
Then you get a marine, first assignment in a dev squad. Nothing I would consider lacking experience or skill, having already far more of both then even an old grizzled stormtrooper veteran ffs. (according to fluff).
The average brand new space marine already have 30 years of concentrated training and experience and superhuman physique to boot so what do you mean they suck and are neewbs?
Rule wise yes, fluff wise hell no.

Hence why games like DoW piss me of, you have your weakling crap-all scouts that die as soon as the wind blows in their direction. As far from GW canon fluff as humanly possible.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

Lets hope ork codex gets a rewriting after tau and nids, they are so outdated and overtaken by codex creep by now that in some match ups they dont stand a chance even pulling a draw.
Think only nids fare worse.

You think Lootas should become actual heavy support, and be given a STR8 shot instead? I havnt played tested the idea at all, so it could be OP really, but it would at least give them a chance to glance AV14

Think GW wanted orks to take down AV14 with lots of bodies and claws in melee or with fast rokkit/claw choppers, that kind of worked when the codex was new and somewhat powerful but today it's for lulz.

As for making lootas S8 that would make them far to powerful. They need to be taken in large squads and placed in terrain, they dominate pretty much everything AV12 and under as it is.
In fact the only thing that gets nice kills in my ork army(es) are lootas, dreads, skimmers, transports, they just eat them for breakfast. To bad the other parts of the army simply melt.

Frothmog wrote:
I never said Lootas suck.

Someone you quoted earlier seemed confused when I was talking about tank bustas sucking and thought I said lootas. Perhaps he does not know there is a difference, or he was already high.

Lootas are good at their role. It just isn't high AV targets. Tank bustas would fill that role a little better if they didn't suck.

One of the two is the Immortals transport. The other is the one with the Deathray thing that is like a Railgun from hell.

The regular warriors transport does have it. Also all of the vehicles in the list are AV 11 on the rear... so much for glancing things to death with basic boyz/marines, or any other str 4 weapon.

If you're referring to Tankbustaz, don't call them "their main ranged anti tank unit". Lootas are. Tankbustaz are mid- to short-range anti-tank.

Pyriel- wrote:

Tac squad - 1 heavy weapon
Dev squad - 4 heavy weapon and signum

Yea... they don't get nothing over a tac squad...

Doesn't having more C4 make a larger explosion than having less C4? Do Orks or Space Marines even use C4? Are you trying to hard to find a reason why Tank Busta's cannot have tank hunters? I can name dozens of reasons as to why they should.

No they dont get anything over a tac squad, same weapon, same statline, same lack of abilities. Just 3 more heavy weapons.
Comparing this to tankbustas vs boy squads where 30 boys can take 3 rokkits and tankbustas take as many as they want plus can benefit from taking meks so yeah, tankbustas get more vs their troop choices then the SM dev does.
How you missed this I cannot fathom!

C4 was just an example but I guess it was still to hard for you.
My point, again *sigh* was that bigger doesnt equal better as "someone" tried to point out to me. Reread what I wrote and this time at least try to take it in its context.

You do realize there is actually a special rule for devastators and the signum right? It increases the ballistic skill of one model in the squad.

Also, Tank Bustas do not get meks.

"How you missed this I cannot fathom!"

As for the C4, the whole point I was trying to make is that your argument is invalid. For several reasons. Sometimes more explosives does = larger explosion. I understand entirely your point. Some substances can create larger explosions with less material than other substances. That does not invalidate the point that some substances in larger quantities create larger explosions than smaller quantities of the same substance... Who says Orks are not using the more powerful substance? A significant amount of their weapons are stolen or manufactured by mad scientist mek boyz.

The bit about tank bustas getting more weapon upgrades than devastators in comparison to their basic troops squad is because of their ballistic skill. If you have 4 heavy weapons in a devastator squad you are probably going to hit with most if not all of them. If you have a dozen rokkits in a tank busta squad you will, on average, to still hit with only 4 of them.

Now lets look at the cost.

Dev squad with 4 missile launchers, 150 points/130 points in blood angels. 1 shot hits on a 2+, 3 on a 3+.

How many tank bustas do we get for 150 points? 10/8 compared to blood angels. Hitting on 5+ = lots of misses, on average the same # of hits.

The Dev squad hits more, has 3+ armor, STR4, longer range, sergeant that is close combat armed for free, and they shall know no fear, combat tactics, or possibly fearless/furious charge. All of those abilities work well for a shooty unit, except furious charge.

Tank Bustas have 6+ armor, STR3 (furious charge really doesn't count in my opinion for a unit that cannot choose to charge infantry, they will always be the ones charged), only 24 inch range, AP 3 doesn't count when you can't fire at infantry unless your opponent has no vehicles. You have to pay to upgrade to a nob, you get tank hammers for free! (like they will ever survive long enough to use them, and probably needs 4s or 6s to hit a moving vehicle), tank busta bombz - the weaker cousin of the melta bomb, and bomb squigs... which may kill your own people.

Dev squads are not as bad as tank bustas. Your whole argument is either a: the fluff doesn't match, which is only in your op pinion or that devastators should be better if tank bustas are better. Well devastators are already better...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frothmog wrote:
I never said Lootas suck.

Someone you quoted earlier seemed confused when I was talking about tank bustas sucking and thought I said lootas. Perhaps he does not know there is a difference, or he was already high.

Lootas are good at their role. It just isn't high AV targets. Tank bustas would fill that role a little better if they didn't suck.

One of the two is the Immortals transport. The other is the one with the Deathray thing that is like a Railgun from hell.

The regular warriors transport does have it. Also all of the vehicles in the list are AV 11 on the rear... so much for glancing things to death with basic boyz/marines, or any other str 4 weapon.

If you're referring to Tankbustaz, don't call them "their main ranged anti tank unit". Lootas are. Tankbustaz are mid- to short-range anti-tank.

Ok, both are main ranged anti tank units in the ork army. Happy? One long range and the other medium, melee ranged.

Yes, I'm happy. I agree with you regarding tankbustaz though, they could certainly use some kind of overhaul. If nothing else, they shold get tank hunters because every Ork on the battlefield expects them to be better than average at killing tanks. Since the Orks are psychic, this'd actually be the case!

Oh, and they should totally get both tank hammers and missile lunchers at the same time. That way they can rush forward, blast away with their rockets and smash stuff that gets too close.

Pyriel- wrote:

Tac squad - 1 heavy weapon
Dev squad - 4 heavy weapon and signum

Yea... they don't get nothing over a tac squad...

Doesn't having more C4 make a larger explosion than having less C4? Do Orks or Space Marines even use C4? Are you trying to hard to find a reason why Tank Busta's cannot have tank hunters? I can name dozens of reasons as to why they should.

This is such a silly discussion. You even admit that they suck at being anti tank. You are totally wrong about that making them more fun to play.

That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Like having +1 str would even matter. They would still miss everything, and it wouldn't even apply to the tank hammer because it is already str 10. The only difference it would make is that they might actually kill something instead of being entirely worthless. Couldn't have that. Then they may be almost half as good as a squad of devastators...

No they dont get anything over a tac squad, same weapon, same statline, same lack of abilities. Just 3 more heavy weapons.
Comparing this to tankbustas vs boy squads where 30 boys can take 3 rokkits and tankbustas take as many as they want plus can benefit from taking meks so yeah, tankbustas get more vs their troop choices then the SM dev does.
How you missed this I cannot fathom!

C4 was just an example but I guess it was still to hard for you.
My point, again *sigh* was that bigger doesnt equal better as "someone" tried to point out to me. Reread what I wrote and this time at least try to take it in its context.

Yes I think tankbustas suck vs tanks and I think it was GWs intention to make them have to slog it or drive towards enemy tanks along with all the other infantry orks in a big mass of bodies.

Anti tank IS, no matter if you like it or not, the main weakness with orks. You cannot take that weakness away either. Every army gets one or more weakneses, the new GKs get crappy range on most things as their main weakness and you dont see people scream for that one to be removed. Dark eldar get fragility as their and you dont see people scream about their paper thin bananaboats needing AV13 just because something sucks do you.

...at least the tankbustas can move/drive and shoot, the devs need to be perfectly still and cost a helluva more per model in a metagame that crawls with AP3+ weaponry and plates.
There is a reason almost no one uses SM devs outside space pups.

Really your using flawed view points. Training is important yes, but every living Ork, has a boat load of actual battle experience. The ones that dont, are the ones the die, and very quickly too. So Sure, your SM devs might have alot more simulator time then the average tunkbusta, but the average tank busta has far more battle experience, as far as blowing a tank apart goes. Youve got to realize that Orks that specialize in something, like Tankbustas, are fanatical about it, they dont just pick up rokkits and hammers and thats it. Its their entire life obsession. So yea, I can easily see why tankbustas would get the tankhunters USR. Your thinking way to much like a SM fan, pretending that they are far superior then anything and therefore if they dont have it, no one else should.

You just acted the same way like you accused me of, pretending orks are better like a ork fan, congrats
Any source btw on marines not being in combat enough or orks being better at everything from birth then super soldiers who train and wage war 22 hours a day? (3:ed rule book)

I'm eagerly awaiting something saying that a tankbusta is so skilled that he eats SM devs for breakfast while miraculously still having the aim of a drunk mushroom and practicing the release of squigs that on a constant basis blow his buddies up almost as much as the enemy (nice survival rate there) plus drapes himself in leathers on a violent battlefield (really nice survival rate for those super skilled 200+ year old tankbustas with you know, tons of experience).

Dark heresy/rouge trader/deathwatch have some very nice ork backgrounds and fluff you might want to check up on btw and I mean that in a sincere manner, awesome background and rules and lots of things explained. I think you'll like it very much.

Besides, Devs aren't even dedicated AT. Sure you could Sally up with MM and LC combo, but then you have the Crimson Fist loadout of 4 HB. You could go Anti TEQ, with 4 Plas Cannons. all rounder with MLs. Or a mix.

To bad things differ so much between fluff and tabletop rules. Both devs and tankbustas need some form of buff since almost nobody ever use them.
Now with the rumored drop in coversave with 6:ed tankbustas will be utterly worthless:( (and so will devs)

Besides, i'm fairly sure that in the fluff, devestators are most often space marines who just got finished being scouts, and need to get some battlefield experiance but making sure not to throw them right into the fray where they will die. So really, they probably don't have too much experiance outside of target practice, unless they were the guy in the scout squad who always held the meltagun, but that still doesn't account for much at all. Tankbustas spend every waking hour figuring out how to shoot up a tank better, and get a bunch more battlefield experiance then dev squads. Dev squads are always temporary, and will eventually become

Read up on SM backgrounds, various IA articles are the best sources.
Dont mix up scouts with gakking DoW pc games where they are as good as a pair of nekkid grots with blindfolds.

Marines take extreme care in their initiate selection and initiates are the few best individuals on entire warlike planetary populations. The survivers who have gone through hell to prove they can be trusted with the geneseed are slowly being transformed to scouts. They dont lie on a couch all day, initiation into battlebrother takes between 8 years and up to 50 (rulebook, Abnett, Mcneil) depending on urgency due to casualties and this time the scouts are further weeded out by constant training and battle missions.
Scouts are tasked to perform the most dangerous missions by themselves with no support behind enemy lines (codex, cant remember exact ed though) so the few who survive can be considered to be truly trusted with the chapters geneseed.
Then you get a marine, first assignment in a dev squad. Nothing I would consider lacking experience or skill, having already far more of both then even an old grizzled stormtrooper veteran ffs. (according to fluff).
The average brand new space marine already have 30 years of concentrated training and experience and superhuman physique to boot so what do you mean they suck and are neewbs?
Rule wise yes, fluff wise hell no.

Hence why games like DoW piss me of, you have your weakling crap-all scouts that die as soon as the wind blows in their direction. As far from GW canon fluff as humanly possible.

After looking a the new necron codex they will only be able to penetrate the av of 2 vehicles in that entire army. The two that do not have the quantum shield thingy. Everything else will be AV 13 until it gets a penetrating hit. Sure you can still kill those things with lootas, but it is far less likely than something with Str 8 weapons.

Lets hope ork codex gets a rewriting after tau and nids, they are so outdated and overtaken by codex creep by now that in some match ups they dont stand a chance even pulling a draw.
Think only nids fare worse.

You think Lootas should become actual heavy support, and be given a STR8 shot instead? I havnt played tested the idea at all, so it could be OP really, but it would at least give them a chance to glance AV14

Think GW wanted orks to take down AV14 with lots of bodies and claws in melee or with fast rokkit/claw choppers, that kind of worked when the codex was new and somewhat powerful but today it's for lulz.

As for making lootas S8 that would make them far to powerful. They need to be taken in large squads and placed in terrain, they dominate pretty much everything AV12 and under as it is.
In fact the only thing that gets nice kills in my ork army(es) are lootas, dreads, skimmers, transports, they just eat them for breakfast. To bad the other parts of the army simply melt.

Go away. You don't play orks, you don't know what is needed. Your space marine fanboi-ism is not wanted, or appreciated here.

You do realize there is actually a special rule for devastators and the signum right? It increases the ballistic skill of one model in the squad.

Also, Tank Bustas do not get meks.

"How you missed this I cannot fathom!"

A slipup on my part not having the codex n front of me at the time.

Oh a signum, wow what an incredible asset. you really work hard to try and make a big point of a feather here.
Besides I'd rather take heavy weapons on all models then get one signum on the very model that is picked as first casualty in all minmaxed squads.

As for the C4, the whole point I was trying to make is that your argument is invalid. For several reasons. Sometimes more explosives does = larger explosion. I understand entirely your point. Some substances can create larger explosions with less material than other substances. That does not invalidate the point that some substances in larger quantities create larger explosions than smaller quantities of the same substance... Who says Orks are not using the more powerful substance? A significant amount of their weapons are stolen or manufactured by mad scientist mek boyz.

The original point was "someone" trying to make tankbustas oh so godlike by claiming their rokkit warheads are so much bigger, thus must be much more boom-y then the smaller dev missiles.
Ergo: my point stands since who says orks DO use more advanced tech-explosives?
All fluff points towards the opposite as IN GENERAL orks with rare exceptions when they have some genious mek or high tech forgeworld loot at hand, use crappy wargear and primitive weaponry.
This is the common take in pretty much all fluff sources no matter how hard you might wish it was otherwise.

The bit about tank bustas getting more weapon upgrades than devastators in comparison to their basic troops squad is because of their ballistic skill. If you have 4 heavy weapons in a devastator squad you are probably going to hit with most if not all of them. If you have a dozen rokkits in a tank busta squad you will, on average, to still hit with only 4 of them.

4 is better then the average 2.85 hits a full dev squad does lol
Nice try though.

Dev squad with 4 missile launchers, 150 points/130 points in blood angels. 1 shot hits on a 2+, 3 on a 3+.

How many tank bustas do we get for 150 points? 10/8 compared to blood angels. Hitting on 5+ = lots of misses, on average the same # of hits.

10 devs with 4 missiles cost 230 points thankyou, if you want to minmax then there is no room for casualty soakers what so ever. A deas dev means 0.66 less hits whereas a dead tankbusta means 0.33 less hits.
So if we take away your bias and meet halfway between a full and a minmaxed dev for the sake of being average we end up with a 7.5 man dev with 4 missiles costing about 190 points and no we are not talkng about specialist blood angels or space pups but vanilla SM so do try and stay on the non biased track.

The 190 points equal slightly over 12 tankbustas.
The devs get 3+ save - the TB get 4+ save (always cover)
The dev cannot move -- the TB can move
The dev get (with signum) 2.86 hits - the TB get 4 hits
the dev get 48' range - tthe TB get 24 + movement.
the dev is more sensitive to casulties and cost more per average model.
The dev get signum (wow) while the tankbusta get tank hammers and squigs.

Overall you are wrong! The dev is more crappy but I am not saying tankbustas are good, far from. They both need serious buffs since nobody ever takes vanilla devs or tankbustas them in competitive games.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Go away. You don't play orks, you don't know what is needed. Your space marine fanboi-ism is not wanted, or appreciated here.

Your level of maturity is reported. Keep digging.

Consider both your wrists duly slapped.

God, i'm done with this thread. What started as a nice wishlist thread to discuss a few changes has turned into a stupid army-vs.-army debate. What a waste.

........


I would love the lootas to get a "beamy" gun upgrade. Like on DoW2. I think that would fit well in a Ork army

Unfortunatly, that would probably move them to the heavy weapon slot.

Although you can impove the flash gitz and more them to the elite slot.

I would love the lootas to get a "beamy" gun upgrade. Like on DoW2. I think that would fit well in a Ork army

Unfortunatly, that would probably move them to the heavy weapon slot.

That is actually a pretty nice idea.

Pyriel- wrote:

You do realize there is actually a special rule for devastators and the signum right? It increases the ballistic skill of one model in the squad.

Also, Tank Bustas do not get meks.

"How you missed this I cannot fathom!"

A slipup on my part not having the codex n front of me at the time.

Oh a signum, wow what an incredible asset. you really work hard to try and make a big point of a feather here.
Besides I'd rather take heavy weapons on all models then get one signum on the very model that is picked as first casualty in all minmaxed squads.

As for the C4, the whole point I was trying to make is that your argument is invalid. For several reasons. Sometimes more explosives does = larger explosion. I understand entirely your point. Some substances can create larger explosions with less material than other substances. That does not invalidate the point that some substances in larger quantities create larger explosions than smaller quantities of the same substance... Who says Orks are not using the more powerful substance? A significant amount of their weapons are stolen or manufactured by mad scientist mek boyz.

The original point was "someone" trying to make tankbustas oh so godlike by claiming their rokkit warheads are so much bigger, thus must be much more boom-y then the smaller dev missiles.
Ergo: my point stands since who says orks DO use more advanced tech-explosives?
All fluff points towards the opposite as IN GENERAL orks with rare exceptions when they have some genious mek or high tech forgeworld loot at hand, use crappy wargear and primitive weaponry.
This is the common take in pretty much all fluff sources no matter how hard you might wish it was otherwise.

The bit about tank bustas getting more weapon upgrades than devastators in comparison to their basic troops squad is because of their ballistic skill. If you have 4 heavy weapons in a devastator squad you are probably going to hit with most if not all of them. If you have a dozen rokkits in a tank busta squad you will, on average, to still hit with only 4 of them.

4 is better then the average 2.85 hits a full dev squad does lol
Nice try though.

Dev squad with 4 missile launchers, 150 points/130 points in blood angels. 1 shot hits on a 2+, 3 on a 3+.

How many tank bustas do we get for 150 points? 10/8 compared to blood angels. Hitting on 5+ = lots of misses, on average the same # of hits.

10 devs with 4 missiles cost 230 points thankyou, if you want to minmax then there is no room for casualty soakers what so ever. A deas dev means 0.66 less hits whereas a dead tankbusta means 0.33 less hits.
So if we take away your bias and meet halfway between a full and a minmaxed dev for the sake of being average we end up with a 7.5 man dev with 4 missiles costing about 190 points and no we are not talkng about specialist blood angels or space pups but vanilla SM so do try and stay on the non biased track.

The 190 points equal slightly over 12 tankbustas.
The devs get 3+ save - the TB get 4+ save (always cover)
The dev cannot move -- the TB can move
The dev get (with signum) 2.86 hits - the TB get 4 hits
the dev get 48' range - tthe TB get 24 + movement.
the dev is more sensitive to casulties and cost more per average model.
The dev get signum (wow) while the tankbusta get tank hammers and squigs.

Overall you are wrong! The dev is more crappy but I am not saying tankbustas are good, far from. They both need serious buffs since nobody ever takes vanilla devs or tankbustas them in competitive games.

I am really beginning to think you just haven't played both units to enough to have a valid opinion on the subject.

The differences you point out actually defeat your own argument. You point out the range difference, saves, movement options, and sensitivity to casualty.

Why would devastators move if they have 48" guns. Dawn of war? OK, but at least they will be in firing range by turn 2 especially if they had a DT, whereas the orks would only be in range if they got a 6 for their run the 1st turn on foot or if you wasted a heavy support slot on a transport for them instead of your troops. In just about every other deployment you are just gonna put the Devs out of range and in cover, where they can stay the whole game and still be effective.

How do orks always get 4+ cover? If you put them in a horde of boyz on foot you might give cover to whatever you shoot at with them because you may be shooting through your own units. If you put them in terrain your opponent just has to stay out of range. Even if it is 4+ cover how is that better than 3+ armor and 4+ cover that marines will have?

You point out that orks can move and shoot their rokkits, that they have more rokkits than devastators, and point for point may hit more with those... Well yea... if they were all still alive when they got in range. Given that they have shorter range guns, Tank Bustas will be in range of everything when they are in range themselves. Devastators are usually out of range of most of your opponent for at least one turn. An opponent who faces marines with devastators has a tougher decision to deal with them or something else early in the game. Anyone facing orks with Tank Bustas ignores them until they are in range and can usually easily kill a bunch of orks in one turn with almost no effort, giving them the time to deal with larger threats early on.

Marines lose more when they lose 1 guy... that is true... They are also a lot less likely to lose 1 guy than a tank busta squad is to be wiped out in one round of shooting because of their range, armor saves, higher leadership, and They Shall Know No Fear.

If you think devastator's are useless in tournaments then look at the 2nd round of 'Ard Boys. There was no dawn of war deployment. They could have been put in cover on the board every game. They would have torn up the shorter ranged grey knight armies that dominated the 2nd round.

What in the space marine heavy slot would have been a better choice for that tourney? Taking a master of the forge to get 3 more dakka dreads? 3 walkers with str 7 twin linked auto cannons. That would cost 460 points. 3 Dev squads with MLs would cost 450. Sure they are not twin-linked but one shot hits on a 2+ and they are STR 8 and get frags against infantry. They also would have received better saves vs the str 8 versions of dreadnoughts the grey knights had. Not to mention they are probably just as durable against most other armies as the dreadnoughts would have been.

What other choices did you have? Land raiders? You would get two redeemers for 480. But that is a lot for just two models. Predators have the same problem the dreads would have. They are not as likely to be in cover as the devs and if they take one hit may be done for the game.
In that tourney the weakness of the space marines would not have been devastators. By comparison, do you seriously see tank bustas being as useful against such a large number of grey knights armies? Or anything else for that matter…



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In an effort to get this topic back on track with positive changes for the Ork army...

Perhaps the tankbustas should get the option to take a mek boy, and with that they get Tank Hunters for benefiting from his spiffy upgrades to their weapons. Have this mek be in addition to/in place of the Nob. 1 per unit and have him cost 10 points to upgrade from a basic guy like the Nob.

Also, maybe the upgrades for meks to lootas and burnas should have different bonuses.

Let the Lootas Meks be the guys with beamy deffgunz. You still get up to 3 of them. Make them like Lascannons, Str 9 AP 2 and have them cost 10 points more than a basic guy.

Let the Burna's Mek have Str 5 skorchas instead of burnas, and in Melee they get +1 str and power weapons as long as they did not shoot.