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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

Saiisil wrote: Also consider this there are multiple units in the game that can remove themselves from play to deep strike, they are not in reserves but they are still deep striking as per the deep strike rules provided on page 95 which is done before any movement in that player phase


Well, I know of 2. Eldar Swooping Hawks are one, and "The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve." Right in their rules we are told to remove the unit "...in its movment phase..." so how does this differ from using GoI in the Librarian's Movement phase? And Skyleap says to place the unit in reserve, so it will follow the reserve rules its next turn. GoI does not place the Librarian in reserve.

The second is closer to GoI and that is the Necron Veil of Darkness. And that says "A Necron Lord can use a Veil of Darkness at the start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally." Hmmm. the Lord uses VoD "...at the start of its Movement phase...". Sound familiar? And when VoD is used the Lord and his unit are removed from the table and immediately placed back using deep strike rules. Not using the reserves rules, or the arriving from reserves rules, just using the deep strike rules for placement. This sound familiar? All 3 rules state that they are used in the unit's movement phase. The Necron Codex came out in 2002, and the Eldar Codex in 2006. So why is this now an issue regarding the Librarian and GoI? I have never told a Necron opponent that the Lord has to use VoD before any other Necron unit moved, just before the Lord and his unit moved.

Saiisil wrote: If you do not believe that the Librarian has a separate movement phase then the player then why do you argue that you can use GoI at any point during the movement phase instead of at the beginning before any movement is done?


Because the use of the term "Movement phase" seems to be the problem. But look at the other examples I quoted. They all say to use the rule in the unit's "movement phase". This has always meant when it is the unit's turn to move, but nothing in any rule, codex, errata, addendum or FAQ says that to use such a power, wargear or rule that the unit must be the first unit in the player's force to be moved. And that is what I am arguing, simply that the Librarian can use GoI when the Librarian makes his move, but is not required to do so before any other marine unit has moved. There is no such requirement. If you say there is one, please cite rule, tell me where to find it.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in se
Snord





Stockholm

time wizard wrote: Because the use of the term "Movement phase" seems to be the problem. But look at the other examples I quoted. They all say to use the rule in the unit's "movement phase". This has always meant when it is the unit's turn to move, but nothing in any rule, codex, errata, addendum or FAQ says that to use such a power, wargear or rule that the unit must be the first unit in the player's force to be moved. And that is what I am arguing, simply that the Librarian can use GoI when the Librarian makes his move, but is not required to do so before any other marine unit has moved. There is no such requirement. If you say there is one, please cite rule, tell me where to find it.


There is only one movement phase per player turn. "beginning of the librarians movement phase" is the beginning of the players movement phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/24 21:25:37


 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

Bla_Ze wrote:There is only one movement phase per player turn. "beginning of the librarians movement phase" is the beginning of the players movement phase.


Well if you want to take this to it's most ridiculous conclusion, since there is only one Movement phase per turn, and since this is the player's movement phase, then there is no such thing as the Librarian's (or the Necron Lord's or the Swooping Hawks) Movement phase, by rule.

And since GoI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase (by rule) but there is no Librarian's Movemet phase, then GoI cannot be used at all since their is no specific player phase that allows it to be used.

The same would hold true for any psychic powers the Librarian must use at the beginning of it's shooting or assault phase, which negates 5 of the 9 Librarian Psychic Powers. Good news to all the anti -arine players out there.

Oh, and the Necron Lord can't use VoD. We'll have to wait for the new Codex to see if that gets fixed.

And Swooping Hawks can never use Skyleap, just take that rule out of their codex as well.

Take a look at all the rules I quoted, they all refer to the unit's Movement phase. So just eliminate any rule that makes such a reference. I like it.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





I have actually required my Necron opponents to use VoD before anything moves because it is used at the beginning of the phase. There is no getting around this issue without having to use some interpretation of the rules and is the interpret the mention of the unit itself as to meaning the player because if we were to say take "At the beginning of the Librarians Movement Phase" and just remove Librarian from the equations we would end up with "At the beginning of the movement phase" which then becomes a whole new beast of an ability. By mentioning the unit itself in such abilities it limits when the ability can be used. As the ability is used at the beginning of the phase, it and all other abilities used at beginning oh phase happen at the same time but once we move on from anything that was not a beginning of phase requirement we can no long do those optional abilities that happen at beginning of phase such as GoI and VoD

 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

time wizard wrote:Well if you want to take this to it's most ridiculous conclusion, since there is only one Movement phase per turn, and since this is the player's movement phase, then there is no such thing as the Librarian's (or the Necron Lord's or the Swooping Hawks) Movement phase, by rule.

Sure. And what exactly would you hope to achieve with such an argument?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/25 03:16:53


   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

insaniak wrote:
time wizard wrote:Well if you want to take this to it's most ridiculous conclusion, since there is only one Movement phase per turn, and since this is the player's movement phase, then there is no such thing as the Librarian's (or the Necron Lord's or the Swooping Hawks) Movement phase, by rule.

Sue. And what exactly would you hope to achieve with such an argument?


No, don't get me wrong insaniak! I am not arguing that it should be done that way. That's why I said most ridiculous conclusion.

I still believe that you can use the Librarian's psychic powers, like GoI, anytime in the movment phase because the rule does not specify that it must be used at the beginning of the player's movement phase.

Same holds true for Necron VoD and Eldar skyleap.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

The point is, if you're not presenting it as an actual argument, what's the point of even bringing it up?

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

This is true, I've used GoI man times at the beginning of the librarians movement.

I've always done it at the beginning of his movement, ignoring the phase part

however I can see the point as it's made, Either way you have to take a word out of the sentence and replace it with another to make sense

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

So does this mean if I have 2 libbys with GoI I can only do it once? Since after I Gate once, I'm no longer at the beginning of MY movement phase.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in se
Snord





Stockholm

No, take reserves for example. Just queue those rolls

Edit:
If it makes you feel better maybe you could roll them double handed at the same time?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/25 10:33:04


 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

insaniak wrote:The point is, if you're not presenting it as an actual argument, what's the point of even bringing it up?


I presented it as a rebuttal to the argument that there is only a player's phase. I showed 3 different codexes that referred to a unit's movement phase.

I used the 3 examples to show that the wording in the rules was similar enough to show the rules or wargear in question could be used any time during the player's movment phase.

I have always allowed Necron players to use VoD at any time during the movement phase and I have never had a problem using GoI after other units have moved.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Unit's Movement phase can only mean the Unit's owning player's movement phase.

I have a Gate libby, or a Veil Lord(Skyleap is done any time in the movement phase, not at the beginning, so the swooping hawks can move first; not that there is any point to doing so...),and I decide that I wish to use the Veil or the gate; this must be done at the beginning of my movement phase; along with any other "Beginning of the movement phase" abilities.

We also have a given timeline for which "Beginning of turn/Movement phase" ability must generally be the last one in the BRB FAQ(It is reserves):
BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.


So you have your turn, starting with the movement phase and a handful of Beginning of the turn/movement phase abilities and units held in reserves, you then go through all of these abilities, then roll for Reserves and have your available reserves enter the table(via any method prepared). Lets say you have 2 Gate libbys, One is an epistolary with Gate+Force Dome and on table attached to a unit of Scouts w/ a teleport homer, the second is also an epistolary in termie armor w/Gate+Vortex held in reserve with a unit of Shooty termies; and you are playing a Planetstrike/Apoc game with the Crash and burn attack Stratagem(Declared at the beginning of any attacker's turn) and the Replacements Asset(Revealed at the beggining of any turn) You then:Activate Force dome, Declare the Crash and Burn(placing+scattering the 4 large markers, and causing damage to anything they hit), Reveal the replacements(a unit destroyed in turn 1), And then Gate the Scouts+Epistolary to a new location(Force dome should have kept the scouts+libby safe-ish from the falling craters), then you begin rolling for reserves(or in this case up to 1/2 of your units in strategic reserve are available) and moving them onto the field(using the teleport homer on the gated scouts to remove scatter from the vortex libby and the termies). The Vortex Libby would not be able to gate this turn, since per the FAQ, the beginning of the turn/movement phase is now past and you are well into your movement phase.

The same goes for begining of any phase abilites; you use all of them first, then go through your actual phase, if you start shooting with any units before, say using Null Zone, then you can no-longer use the start of the shooting phase ability; and Mandatory abilities, such as Wierdboys, must be used prior to any other shooting; 2 Wierdboys would both have to roll their Psychic tests, then for what power they must use that turn(each completes both rolls all at once, before moving on to the next; and note that the powers do not have to be used immediately, only sometime during the remainder of that Ork turn; thus Frazzle Zzap, and 'Eadbanger are not immediately used but when the unit decides whether or not to fire, they get used, and so may not run).


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
 
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