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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Grand ol US of A

So I have seen it posted several times and it hasn't come up until this past friday, but where does it say that you cannot take a transport with you if you Gate of Infinity with an embarked Librarian?

That would be question 1. Question 2. Can the transport (in my case it was a LR) move and then Gate? I don't think so but my opponent insisted since his librarian hadn't moved. I argued that he had since the LR had just moved.

Game wise it ended up not mattering as he landed in the middle of two squads with 2 meltas and 2 oblits , but just in case it comes up again I would like a concrete yes or no and where it is specified.

Thanks!

d3m01iti0n wrote:
BT uses the Codex Astartes as toilet paper. They’re an Imp Fist successor, recruit from multiple planets, and are known to be the largest Chapter in the galaxy. They’re on a constant Crusade, keeping it real for the Emperor and not bumming around like the other guys. They hate psykers and can’t ally with them. They’re basically an entire chapter of Chaplains. CC lunatics. What every Space Marine should aspire to be, if not trapped in a Matt Ward nightmare.

 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Gate is librarian and any unit he is with. the Libby is not with(read attached to), he is transported by the vehicle. The libby+Unit can shoot at a separate target from the transport(providing there are fire-points) and can never be damaged by the shots at the transport. The transport does not have to remain in coherency with the unit once they disembark.

For the Moving the land raider before the Libby gates, that would be a negative; Gate is done at the beginning of the movement phase, same time as Reserves are called in and etc.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





The first question is hotly debated and as there is another thread that the last post in it is about a week or less old I will not say one way or another here. The second question however I agree in full with Kel GoI is done at the beginning of the movement phase and therefore is done before anything moves not just the librarian.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/23 17:13:09


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Its not hotly debated

If you try to define "with" as "nearby", which is the only way to "hotly debate" it, suddenly you can argue every unit on the table moves with the libby.

Which is absurd

So, use the common sense version, which is that "with" == "joined to"
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





I say it is hotly debated because on almost every 40k forum I have looked at there is at least 2 threads for it, I personally have not argued that 'with' = 'nearby' I also have not tried to define exactly what 'with' means because to do so is to put my own interpretation of the English in the game. 'With' can mean many things if you looked at all of the uses of the word. The only reason I consider that it is possible to be able to consider that the transport can move with is because while not the same type of power there are powers that will affect the vehicle instead but that is not why I am posting in this thread.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





nosferatu1001 wrote:Its not hotly debated

If you try to define "with" as "nearby", which is the only way to "hotly debate" it, suddenly you can argue every unit on the table moves with the libby.

Which is absurd

So, use the common sense version, which is that "with" == "joined to"


Another +1 for nos.

Sourclams wrote:He already had more necrons than anyone else. Now he wants to have more necrons than himself.


I play  
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Grand ol US of A

Kommissar Kel wrote:Gate is librarian and any unit he is with. the Libby is not with(read attached to), he is transported by the vehicle. The libby+Unit can shoot at a separate target from the transport(providing there are fire-points) and can never be damaged by the shots at the transport. The transport does not have to remain in coherency with the unit once they disembark.

For the Moving the land raider before the Libby gates, that would be a negative; Gate is done at the beginning of the movement phase, same time as Reserves are called in and etc.

Right I agree with you, however his argument was that if the librarian had not moved then other units could move then he could gate, since it reads at the begining of the the Librarian's movement phase.

As for the gate with transport he tried to say that since it never says "attached to" then that would be RAI. I do like nos' explanation of what do you define "with" as. I'll have to use that.

As another question, since he has my codex do you have to scatter when landing from gate?

d3m01iti0n wrote:
BT uses the Codex Astartes as toilet paper. They’re an Imp Fist successor, recruit from multiple planets, and are known to be the largest Chapter in the galaxy. They’re on a constant Crusade, keeping it real for the Emperor and not bumming around like the other guys. They hate psykers and can’t ally with them. They’re basically an entire chapter of Chaplains. CC lunatics. What every Space Marine should aspire to be, if not trapped in a Matt Ward nightmare.

 
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Akroma06 wrote:As another question, since he has my codex do you have to scatter when landing from gate?


As it says specifically "using the deep strike rules" then later on it says while if the Librarian travels alone without risk if he takes a unit along any doubles rolled on scatter will kill a model. I would say yes you have to roll to scatter.

 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its not hotly debated

If you try to define "with" as "nearby", which is the only way to "hotly debate" it, suddenly you can argue every unit on the table moves with the libby.

Which is absurd

So, use the common sense version, which is that "with" == "joined to"


Which is also backed up by the rules and the FAQs.

Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a
squad effect working out if a squad is below half
strength or not? (p48)
A: Independent Characters are not counted when
working out if a squad is below half strength or not.
The exception to this is if an Independent Character is
with
a Retinue (in which case he is counted when
working out if the squad is below half strength). {emphasis mine}

Also, page 48 second bullet point says ICs "...may begin the game already with a unit..." and in this case also, "with" means joined to confirmed by the FAQ:

Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

So the where the GoI staes "The Librarian and the unit he is with,..." it is only the unit the Librarian has joined, and since ICs can never join vehicles, the LR (or any other vehicle) could never be moved with GoI.

And it does occur "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase..." which I know has been argued to death that models do not have individual Movement phase, but this would mean the GoI can be used during the SM Movement phase, not necessarily at the beginning of the player's Movement phase, but just before moving the Librarian (and his unit if applicable).

If the Librarian had to use GoI before any other marine unit moved, the rule would say that the power is used at the beginning of the Space Marine Player's Movement phase, which it clearly does not.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





USA

+1 to Nos...

GoI only works with the attached squad. IC's can't attach to a vehicle.

7 Armies 30,000+

, , , , , , ,  
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Since a unit inside of a transport counts as moving when the vehicle moves then it doesn't matter when in the movement phase the librarian casts GoI (for purposes of this specific discussion).
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Grand ol US of A

So it has to be done before the transport moves but other things can move on his side of the board. Ok thanks!

d3m01iti0n wrote:
BT uses the Codex Astartes as toilet paper. They’re an Imp Fist successor, recruit from multiple planets, and are known to be the largest Chapter in the galaxy. They’re on a constant Crusade, keeping it real for the Emperor and not bumming around like the other guys. They hate psykers and can’t ally with them. They’re basically an entire chapter of Chaplains. CC lunatics. What every Space Marine should aspire to be, if not trapped in a Matt Ward nightmare.

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




No, I agree with the camp that says that it should be done at the start of the player's turn (and that the Libbie doesn't have his own movement turn). All I am saying that even with that it wouldn't matter since the vehicle moved and as such the unit inside is considered to have moved so in no way can you move the transport and then GoI.
   
Made in us
Manhunter





HIDING IN METAL BAWKSES!

Leo_the_Rat wrote:No, I agree with the camp that says that it should be done at the start of the player's turn (and that the Libbie doesn't have his own movement turn). All I am saying that even with that it wouldn't matter since the vehicle moved and as such the unit inside is considered to have moved so in no way can you move the transport and then GoI.

Why wouldn't the Libby have his own movement turn?
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






forruner_mercy wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:No, I agree with the camp that says that it should be done at the start of the player's turn (and that the Libbie doesn't have his own movement turn). All I am saying that even with that it wouldn't matter since the vehicle moved and as such the unit inside is considered to have moved so in no way can you move the transport and then GoI.

Why wouldn't the Libby have his own movement turn?


Because models in this game do not individually "activate" nor have thier own individual Phases.

The Player has the Movement Shooting, and assault phases, those phases dictate what a Model may do; a "Model's Phase" would have to mean the owning player's Phase
   
Made in us
Manhunter





HIDING IN METAL BAWKSES!

Kommissar Kel wrote:
forruner_mercy wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:No, I agree with the camp that says that it should be done at the start of the player's turn (and that the Libbie doesn't have his own movement turn). All I am saying that even with that it wouldn't matter since the vehicle moved and as such the unit inside is considered to have moved so in no way can you move the transport and then GoI.

Why wouldn't the Libby have his own movement turn?


Because models in this game do not individually "activate" nor have thier own individual Phases.

The Player has the Movement Shooting, and assault phases, those phases dictate what a Model may do; a "Model's Phase" would have to mean the owning player's Phase

Ok.
But why would you have to use the GoI at the beginning of the WHOLE movement phase? The Libby may not get his own movement turn, but you do not have move the Libby first, unless it says so.
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





forruner_mercy wrote:But why would you have to use the GoI at the beginning of the WHOLE movement phase? The Libby may not get his own movement turn, but you do not have move the Libby first, unless it says so.



In this case yes you would have to move the Libby before you move any other unit if using GoI, just like reserves (and Deepstrike for that matter which you are deepstriking when using GoI) you roll for reserves and all reserves enter the field before anyone else is moved.
   
Made in us
Manhunter





HIDING IN METAL BAWKSES!

Saiisil wrote:
forruner_mercy wrote:But why would you have to use the GoI at the beginning of the WHOLE movement phase? The Libby may not get his own movement turn, but you do not have move the Libby first, unless it says so.



In this case yes you would have to move the Libby before you move any other unit if using GoI, just like reserves (and Deepstrike for that matter which you are deepstriking when using GoI) you roll for reserves and all reserves enter the field before anyone else is moved.

Does it specifically say that though? Either in the BRB, a Codex, or a FAQ?
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





In the BGB IIRC pages 94-95 explain Reserves and Deep Strike and they are done at the beginning of the movement phase, GoI specifically says that you use Deep Strike rules. If you have started moving units you are no longer at the beginning you are during.

 
   
Made in us
Manhunter





HIDING IN METAL BAWKSES!

Saiisil wrote:In the BGB IIRC pages 94-95 explain Reserves and Deep Strike and they are done at the beginning of the movement phase, GoI specifically says that you use Deep Strike rules. If you have started moving units you are no longer at the beginning you are during.

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for helping get rid of my confusion

Lokas wrote:...Enemy of my enemy is kind of a dick, so let's kill him too.

"Without judgement there is no obstacle to action." ~ Kommander Oleg Strakhov
 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

Saiisil wrote:In the BGB IIRC pages 94-95 explain Reserves and Deep Strike and they are done at the beginning of the movement phase, GoI specifically says that you use Deep Strike rules. If you have started moving units you are no longer at the beginning you are during.


Except that when the Librarian is moving via Gate of Infinity, he is using a Psychic Power. He is not arriving from reserve.

If you are trying to say that the Librarian must be the first to move because of reserve and deep strike rules, then you would have to use all of the deep strike rules, including the part that says, "If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve...". Now how can a Librarian that is on the table use GoI to move up to 24" on the table if to use this option he must begin the game in reserve?
And since only infantry models in Terminator armor or who are jump infantry have the option to 'arrive' via deep strike, are only those types of models allowed to move via GoI?

GoI says at the beginning of his Movement phase, you remove him and his unit from the tabletop. You then immediately place them anywhere within 24" using deep strike rules. You are therefore using the deep strike rules for placement of the Librarian and his unit, not for their arrival on the field.

The only restrictions for moving units are the ones on page 9 that say once you start moving a unit, you finish moving it before going on to another unit, that when you start to move the next unit, you cannot go back and change a move made by a previous unit, and page 94 that says you roll for reserves at the start of your Movement phase and deploy any arriving units before moving any other units as normal. Other than that, you are free to move your units in whatever order you choose. And this includes moving your Librarian by using his GoI psychic power.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Now time, can you explain how the Librarians Movement phase is different from the owning players? or how you have taken a post completely out of context?

 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

Saiisil wrote:Now time, can you explain how the Librarians Movement phase is different from the owning players? or how you have taken a post completely out of context?


First, I did explain that in both posts, take the time to go back and re-read them.

Second, explain to me which post I took completely out of context. Akroma06 said GoI had to be used before the transport moved but other things could move which was correct.
You said that you have to move the Librarian first because it is just like reserves, which is incorrect.

So why don't you explain how a unit that is placed using deep strike rules must also use the rules for reserves, when it was never in reserve in the first place.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





time wizard wrote:Second, explain to me which post I took completely out of context. Akroma06 said GoI had to be used before the transport moved but other things could move which was correct.


Why do you think this is correct? I can think of a reason why this is not correct, but I am curious on why you think this is correct and is supported in the rules.

Sourclams wrote:He already had more necrons than anyone else. Now he wants to have more necrons than himself.


I play  
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

imweasel wrote:Why do you think this is correct? I can think of a reason why this is not correct, but I am curious on why you think this is correct and is supported in the rules.


Because the rule states that GoI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, not at the beginning of the Marine player's Movement phase. If it was the latter, then yes, it would have to be the first move made by the player, before any other models had made any moves. Further is says the Librarian's Psvchic powers are used following the rules in the main rulebook. And the rules on page 50 don't say the psychic powers must be used at the start of a player turn of the start of any phase.

Plus, if GoI had to be used at the beginning of the player's turn, how would you handle having 2 Librarian's in your force? Would only one be able to use GoI in a player turn? There is no such restriction in the rules or codex. Instead, at the beginning of each of the 2 Librarian's Movement phases, they would be able to use their psychic power to move via GoI. If it could only be used at the beginning of the marine player's Movement phase, after the first Librarian used the power, the second one would not be allowed to, since the beginning of the player's movement phase had passed.

The wording is similar to Quickening and Null Zone which the rule says are used at the beginning of the Librarian's Shooting phase, or Might of the Ancients which is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Assault phase, or Force Dome which also says it is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase.

If any of these psychic powers had to be used as the first action or the phase, the rule would state that it had to be used at the beginning of the player's Movement or Shooting or Assault phases.

The wording is different from the reserves section which clearly states that reserves are rolled for at the start of the player's Movement phase.

Unless everyone is saying that in the marine Shooting phase, if any unit other than the Librarian has fired a weapon, that the Librarian can no longer use Quickening or Null Zone.

And what of an Epistolary? If he uses Quickening can he no longer use Null Zone since both must be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Shooting phase.

Bottom line is that there is no restriction that says that GoI must be used by the marine player at the beginning of the player turn, before any other marine unit moved (except those arriving from reserve).


I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





time wizard wrote:Because the rule states that GoI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, not at the beginning of the Marine player's Movement phase.


Then why in the world would you believe that the librarian could not use GoI if the transport he is in has already moved?!?!?

Sourclams wrote:He already had more necrons than anyone else. Now he wants to have more necrons than himself.


I play  
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Time wizard; would you care to find us any rules stating that models have their own movement phase?

Because I can cite Page and text that states that Players have phases; BRB Page 9, Game Turns and Player turns: "In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn divided into Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases(see Turn Sequence, below).

The Turn Sequence box-out then tells you what the Player can do with his models during each of his phases.

If the Librariabn has his own movement phase, then the Librarian must have his own models and his own game of 40k which he is playing with someone on the battlefield; and what happens when the Librarian with gate is fielding a Librarian with Gate in his game?

That entire concept then amounts to this concept of a Tesseract:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/24 16:43:56


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




time wizard wrote:And what of an Epistolary? If he uses Quickening can he no longer use Null Zone since both must be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Shooting phase.


This statement is wrong in that Quickening is used at the start of the assault phase not the shooting phase. If an Epistolary took both Might of Ancients and Quickening are you saying that he couldn't use both of those powers in the same phase since they each must be used at the start of the assault phase?

The obvious answer lies in (uncommon) common sense. If 2 things have to happen at the same time they still have to be resolved in an order. The controlling player does the mandatory things in the order he prefers so long as a non-mandatory thing is not done before them. So in the above questoin the player would cast both abilities in whichever order he wished and then would go on as normal. If he cast one then moved and cast the other then the last casting would be against the rules.

Is this spelled out in the rules? No, but it shouldn't have to be spelled out. The game is supposed to be played by two or more rational people who shouldn't have to be told to use some discretion in their actions. Just like there is no rule saying what color or size dice to use when you play or whether you can use different dice on different occasions in the same game. If the players can't come to their own solution then they should just pack up the game and move on to other things (or just roll off as GW suggests in the FAQ).
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

imweasel wrote:
time wizard wrote:Because the rule states that GoI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, not at the beginning of the Marine player's Movement phase.


Then why in the world would you believe that the librarian could not use GoI if the transport he is in has already moved?!?!?


Well if you look back through my posts, you'll see that I never said that I thought the Librarian could not use GoI if the transport had moved.

The restrictions on units counting as moving if the transport moves apply to units shooting and units moving after disembarking. Since GoI is neither of these, I believe it could be used by a Librarian from a vehicle even after the vehicle moved, the distance for GoI being measured from the vehicle's hull. This is again because GoI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase, not necessarily the beginning of the player's Movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
This statement is wrong in that Quickening is used at the start of the assault phase not the shooting phase. If an Epistolary took both Might of Ancients and Quickening are you saying that he couldn't use both of those powers in the same phase since they each must be used at the start of the assault phase?


From the last Space Marine Errata (not FAQ);

Page 57 – Quickening, second paragraph.
Change the second paragraph as follows:
The power is used at the beginning of the Librarian’s
Shooting phase. If successful, the Librarian has the Fleet
special rule and Initiative 10 until the end of the turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kommissar Kel wrote: Time wizard; would you care to find us any rules stating that models have their own movement phase?


No, of course not, no one can because they don't. I guess you missed this from my first post.

time wizard wrote:And it does occur "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase..." which I know has been argued to death that models do not have individual Movement phase, but this would mean the GoI can be used during the SM Movement phase, not necessarily at the beginning of the player's Movement phase, but just before moving the Librarian (and his unit if applicable).


Kommissar Kel wrote: Because I can cite Page and text that states that Players have phases; BRB Page 9, Game Turns and Player turns: "In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn divided into Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases(see Turn Sequence, below).


As can I. And in a player's Movment phase, the player may move all, some or none of his units as he wishes. He can do so in any order he wishes. The only time the rules mandate a unit moving before another one is when the units arrive from reserve. Those arriving units that arrive must deployed on the table and "The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal." But each and every unit is selected, and moved one after the other. And once that move is completed and you go on to the next unit, the units move is over and you cannot go back to it. You are not moving the entire army in one 'movement', you are moving them one at a time. And an action that must take place before a particular unit moves does not necessarily have to take place before any unit moves, unless specifically prohibited.


The Librarian may use GoI to move when the player moves him, and this can occur at any time during the player's Movement phase, but at the beginning of the Librarian's movement. This is to prevent the player from moving the Librarian and then using his psychic power to gate across the table. So cite me the page and text, either from the main rules or from the Space Marine Codex that says the Librarian must use his pychic powers at the beginning of the marine player's Movement (of Shooting or Assault) phase. You won't find those words. So saying that the Librarian must use GoI before the marine player moves any other unit in the Movement phase is incorrect and unsupported by the codex or rules.

Is the rule poorly written? Yes, I agree that it is. But when you see similar wording for 5 of the Librarian's 9 psychic powers, you can see that the power is used in the player's phase when they select the Librarian to attempt to use the power within that phase.

Kommissar Kel wrote: If the Librariabn has his own movement phase, then the Librarian must have his own models and his own game of 40k which he is playing with someone on the battlefield; and what happens when the Librarian with gate is fielding a Librarian with Gate in his game?


It can't happen. But again, I am not the one that said GoI "...is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase.", the author of the codex said it. I can elect to attempt to have the Librarian use GoI at any time during my Movement phase, the only restriction is that it has to happen before the Librarian moves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/24 18:34:32


I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





you took my second post out of context, I was asked where in the rules certain things in my first post were based and I answered that.

Also consider this there are multiple units in the game that can remove themselves from play to deep strike, they are not in reserves but they are still deep striking as per the deep strike rules provided on page 95 which is done before any movement in that player phase

If you do not believe that the Librarian has a separate movement phase then the player then why do you argue that you can use GoI at any point during the movement phase instead of at the beginning before any movement is done?

 
   
 
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