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Grey Templar wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

I would say that there is no restriction on them disembarking other than it cannot be voluntary, which a fallback move is not.

this is a permissive rule set. they need permission to disembark.

They have permission to disembark. A unit ALWAYS has the ability to disembark. The restrictions are when it has embarked that turn, or a vehicle moves above cruising speed (or has deep struck that turn? I could be wrong here). However, the restrictions on those are always voluntarily

Really?


Thats awsome, Now I can disembark when my transport is about to get slagged by my enemies Meltaguns so i won't have to take pinning tests when it blows up!!!

Yeah... that's exactly what I meant. Good job.

I forgot about not being able to disembark after dsing (spores and drop pods excluded)

Happyjew wrote:I forgot about not being able to disembark after dsing (spores and drop pods excluded)

No you can ALWAYS disembark; it is a very specified allowance in the BRB and part of what tells us that Embarked models on a Deep-striking vehicle are themselves deepstriking as well(then the FAQ flat came out and said it in plain english).

BRB page 95, Deep Strike, 5th paragraph: "In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep-striking transport vehicle.

Now, there are 2 rules that come to mind that alter this general rule: Mycetic Spores(which are not transport vehicles, but specifically allow for the disembarkation from them after deep-striking), and Dark Eldar transports with Retro-fire Jets(which specify no disembarking during deepstrike turn).

Ah my bad, I was going off of Shrike. Can you disembark after going flatout, or is the restriction only on embarking (don't have book available at the moment)?

No you cannot, the full detail is on page 70 of the BRB(for when you gain access to your rulebook), under Fast transport Vehicles; but it is not just "after going flatout".

Saiisil wrote:nos, tell me is a unit inside a transport able to move at all?

No. Which means they cannot move their full fall back distance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No. Which means they cannot move their full fall back distance.

Yet the rulebook says that they are only destroyed if they can not move their full distance without doubling back, if the unit can not move at all it can not double back thus it can not be destroyed by the Trapped rule.

Saiisil wrote:Yet the rulebook says that they are only destroyed if they can not move their full distance without doubling back, if the unit can not move at all it can not double back thus it can not be destroyed by the Trapped rule.

No, the rulebook says this:

1. Pg 45, col 2, par 3, FALL BACK: Trapped: "If the unit cannot perform a fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see diagram below)."
2. From diagram below: "As the Gretchin cannot fall back 8 inches without running into impassable terrain or moving within 1 inch of an enemy, the entire unit is destroyed."

Situational relationship:
1. The broken unit cannot perform a fall back move in any direction or distance because it is embarked on a vehicle.
2. It must fall back the required distance or be destroyed.

And for those who think they should be allowed to disembark after failing a Morale Check:

Pg 66, col 2, par 1: TRANSPORT VEHICLES: Embarking and disembarking: "Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase, and may not voluntarily both embark and disembark in the same player turn. However, they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

H1: Morale tests for casualties caused by Dangerous Terrain before the unit embarked will be taken at the end of the movement phase, while they are in the vehicle.
Nowhere does it say that a unit that fails a Morale Test during the Movement Phase may or is forced to disembark after embarking and violate the second clause of this rule.

H2: Morale tests for casualties caused by Gets Hot!, Shadows of the Warp, etc. while the unit is embarked will be taken at the end of the shooting phase, while they are in the vehicle.
Nowhere does it say that a unit that fails a Morale Test during the Shooting Phase may or is forced to disembark and violate this first part of this rule.

Even if somehow a unit that did not embark this movement phase fails a Morale Test while inside a vehicle that did not move, the test is still taken at the end of the phase and no voluntary disembark can save it.

But the point many are making is that it is not a VOLUNTARY disembark. They claim it is INVOLUNTARY, because falling back is that kind of move, not 'oh, I voluntarily fall back', it is 'oh, I'm forced to fall back'. You are missing that point in quoting that same rule about the voluntary embark and disembark in the same movement phase.

But that is a good point about the shooting phase, but then you could argue that others can't move in the shooting phase (the can make a 'run move', but thats different).

It needs to be FAQ'd, and until then its open for interpretation.

Oh, I used caps because I did it in the quick response and couldn't bold it I don't think.

Just allow them to disembark and fall back, it's the easiest and most logical (well, least nonsensical) way. The unit's not going to go berserk and kill itself just because they're inside the metal box...

The rules themselves are unclear, but this solution works well enough.

But there is still no rule saying that a unit that has failed a morale test inside a vehicle may or is forced to disembark outside of the movement phase. The one above says the unit may not without regard to morale test results. There is no grey area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having to make involuntary movement, due to falling back or any thing else I can think of, does not give a unit permission or force it to disembark outside of the movement phase, which is when this hypothetical disembark would take place.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Saiisil wrote:Yet the rulebook says that they are only destroyed if they can not move their full distance without doubling back, if the unit can not move at all it can not double back thus it can not be destroyed by the Trapped rule.

No, the rulebook says this:

1. Pg 45, col 2, par 3, FALL BACK: Trapped: "If the unit cannot perform a fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see diagram below)."
2. From diagram below: "As the Gretchin cannot fall back 8 inches without running into impassable terrain or moving within 1 inch of an enemy, the entire unit is destroyed."

So how is what I said wrong? notice what I bolded from your quoting, according to what nos answered to a question I asked the unit in the transport can not move at all, if they can't move how can they double back? simple they can't.

As for the rest of that post motyak pretty much covered it, as for your last post, the rules don't cover failing a check while in a vehicle at all so there exists no comparable rulings to make an accurate RAW calling on this issue.

Doubling back is not the only condition, you realise that right?

They cannot make a fall back move in any direction, without doubling back. Well they CERTAINLY cannot make a fall back move in ANY direction now, can they?

Why does not being able to move somehow not destroy you, when moving 1" could result in you being destroyed?

Additionally: find a requirement for them to disembark. There isnt one? THere isnt permission for them to disembark, so they cannot, and are destroyed.

Without doubling back is a part of the entire condition, therefore if they aren't doubling back they aren't destroyed.

They move 0" that direction and 0" back the other, thus have doubled back

Seriously, they CANNOT MAKE a fall back move in ANY DIRECTION, and are destroyed.

Your missing the 'without doubling back' in that second sentence. a unit can not move 0 inches btw,

Why? It clearly states in the BRB that units cannot take morale checks whilst inside a vehicle. It is always assumed that the crew have unshakeable faith in their transport. I don't know how this couldn't be more clear. if your embarked, your effectively fearless. Whatever happens before you disembark is treated as it normally would be.

Hellwolf wrote:Why? It clearly states in the BRB that units cannot take morale checks whilst inside a vehicle. It is always assumed that the crew have unshakeable faith in their transport. I don't know how this couldn't be more clear. if your embarked, your effectively fearless. Whatever happens before you disembark is treated as it normally would be.

No no no

Thats CREW, not passangers. Nowhere are passangers and morale tests discussed.

Hellwolf wrote:Why? It clearly states in the BRB that units cannot take morale checks whilst inside a vehicle. It is always assumed that the crew have unshakeable faith in their transport. I don't know how this couldn't be more clear. if your embarked, your effectively fearless. Whatever happens before you disembark is treated as it normally would be.

Can we get a page reference for that? I know it says that Vehicles never take morale checks but I do not remember every seeing it say anything about embarked units.

I don't have my BRB on me but I will tomo. It's under vehicles I think. It says something like "vehicles can never fall back and it is always assumed that anybody inside the vehicle has unshakeable faith..."

It's page 63, and states "vehicle's crew" it says nothing about embarked units. If an unit is embarked and fail a morale test, they cannot disembark (as they have no permission) and cannot fall back and therefore are...(someone else can finish this, I think)

Saiisil wrote:Your missing the 'without doubling back' in that second sentence. a unit can not move 0 inches btw,

*sigh*

So a unit that can only move 1" and double back 1" is destroyed, but a unit that CANNOT MAKE ANY fallback move in ANY direction EVER doesnt get destroyed?
Youre arguing the absurd.

You cannot make a full back move, and certainly cannot make a move without doubling back, therefore are destroyed. Period. You have no argument against this, none

Actually Doubling back is pretty specific, if you move 0" South and than 4" North you didn't double back this turn.

Now if the Doubling back takes precedence over multiple turns or not, that I'm not sure of.

Need to grab my rulebook and check on silly things like Emergency Disembarks, etc

Fine, if 0" move is not doubling back, than from now on when any of my unit fails morale, I just won't move them at all. "Didn't they fail morale? Yeah, but their not going to move, because I don't want them destroyed." I really doubt that would fly.

I have no argument or you refuse to see the validity of what I am saying, which is it nos because I obviously have an argument and it falls in line to exactly what the wording of 'Trapped!' says. you can not move 0" and if you can not move you can not double back, 'Trapped!' states that if you have to double back then you are destroyed, no double back no destroyed.

Happyjew, you can't choose not to move, fallback forces the unit to move and if that unit can not make it's full move without doubling back it is destroyed, if it didn't say 'without doubling back' then I would agree that no matter what if the unit can't move it is destroyed but it exists there as a qualifier and therefore if a unit can not move at least 0.01" then it is not destroyed but if it can move 0.01" but is unable to fulfill the rolled number of inches it is destroyed.

You cannot complete your fall back move in any direction. Not being able to move by itself makes you unable to complete your fall back move - you MUST MOVE the FULL DISTANCE. Have you moved the full distance? No? Then youre dead. Dead. Dead

You entirely misunderstand that sentence. Without is essentially an additional condition (you cant go left then right to move the full distance) clarifying what completing a fallback move means. to corrupt it in the ABSURD way you are doing (yay, a unit that cannot move isnt destroyed, a unit that can move 0.1" is destroyed? Seriously? Idiotic) shows the lack of ACTUAL argument you have.

Nos, I am merely arguing exactly what the rule says and nothing more, nothing less. It is neither absurd, or idiotic. it is exact wording.

You are in a burning building. It is 20 feet to the exit. If you cannot run 20 feet without doubling back, then you will die.

Saiisil's argument is that if you cannot run, you will not die, since you will never be able to double back. Running a safe distance of 20 feet and not doubling back are two separate conditions that must both be met for exiting the burning building, not one or the other.

A unit has failed a morale test inside a vehicle. If the unit cannot move 2D6 inches without doubling back, the unit will be destroyed.

For our case, not meeting either the criteria of moving 2D6 and not doubling back will result in a unit being destroyed. Both conditions must be met, not just one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is no ambiguity in the wording.

Jon, there are just two issues I have with your post, the first as this is for a game of science fiction real life examples have no baring on the matter, the second is this, the rule is not 2 conditions it is 1 condition with a qualifier.

No, it is 1 condition (making the full fall back move) with a requirement that doubling back isnt allowed to claim you have made a full fall back.

Your argument is an absurd position, as if a unit is surrounded on all sides, 1" away, it cannot move and so by YOUR "interpretation" as they cannot move, they dont die.

No, absurd. Completely alters the rule to suit your interpretation

The actual rule requres you to make a full fall back move, without doubling back. If you cannot move, you CANNOT make a full fall back move, and are destroyed. Until you can debate this with actual rules, your position is moot.