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I've seen this situation come up in at least two different contexts, and I don't think that the rules clearly address the correct way to play it. I think that the answers are the same for either of my hypothetical situations. Please try to point to the relevant rules or FAQ entries if you think that you have an authoritative answer.

Hypothetical #1: A non-Fearless 4-model squad moves across dangerous terrain, and embarks onto a transport vehicle at the end of its move. 1 model dies due to the dangerous terrain test (i.e., 25% casualties in your own movement phase).

Hypothetical #2: A non-Fearless 4-model squad fires plasma guns out of their vehicle's fire point. One model rolls a "1" to hit, then fails its "get hot" armor save (i.e., 25% casualties in your own shooting phase).

Does either squad have to take a morale check? If so, what happens?

For the first one. I believe that you take the instance in which you check for the Dangerous Terrain is when you first come into it. So if you lost enough models that way, you would take a Morale check.

Hmmm...not sure on the second one.

You would have to take a morale test for both situations (or for Hypothetical #3 when the squad contains a psyker and Perils kills him).

What happens if an embarked squad fail a morale test is a grey area and you will find no definitive answer.

Popular answers are:

A) The unit is considered "Trapped" and is destroyed.
B) The unit disembarks and flees on foot.
C) The unit is actually effectively fearless while in a transport.
D) The unit is stuck in some strange state in which they are falling back, but not actually moving. If they disembark, they resume falling back as normal, but while they are embarked, nothing happens.
E) The rules for 40k break down which causes a tear in the fabric of existance, sucking the game and all players into the Warp, where they will be tortured by the inhabitants of that place. (Also, note that Slannesh won't be born for another 28000 years, so there's sadly no kinky stuff)

The game has been broken.
again

Hah, option A and E I think are the most preferable options

F) The Soldiers panic and start firing their weapons inside the vehicle.
This predictably will not go well. Vehicle wrecked.

No offense, but I'm pretty sure you guys have it wrong.

1) moral tests due to >25% casualties are taken at the end of the phase.

2) At the end of the phase, you're in a vehicle. You can't fall back, nor be in a state of falling back, while in a vehicle. SO the point is moot.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:2) At the end of the phase, you're in a vehicle. You can't fall back, nor be in a state of falling back, while in a vehicle. SO the point is moot.

There's nothing that prohibits units in a vehicle from falling back or being in a state of falling back. So, this is a very real problem with the rules with no obvious answer.

Sir_P - no, not moot. If you search you would see that the options are exactly as laid out

technically they cannot fall back, so if they fail they would be destroyed technically

I could have sworn that them being destroyed was because they couldn't fall back without double backing which they can not do inside a transport.

To be completely honest I believe that in these two cases presented that the logical step is that the embarked unit is forced to disembark from their transport.

They cannot move the full fall back distance, ever, because they cannot move Thus they are destroyed

I am talking about the exact wording on this though, does it not include the stipulation of doubling back? Also why exactly do you consider them trapped? This is an issue that isn't exactly covered in the rules so I can understand why there would exist so many view points to it.

Look at the example in the bgb. The gretchin are surrounded and cannot move the required 8" in any direction. If you are in a vehicle, you cannot move x" in any direction.

Is there a FAQ for this?

Von Voytz wrote:I've seen this situation come up in at least two different contexts, and I don't think that the rules clearly address the correct way to play it. I think that the answers are the same for either of my hypothetical situations. Please try to point to the relevant rules or FAQ entries if you think that you have an authoritative answer.

Hypothetical #1: A non-Fearless 4-model squad moves across dangerous terrain, and embarks onto a transport vehicle at the end of its move. 1 model dies due to the dangerous terrain test (i.e., 25% casualties in your own movement phase).

Hypothetical #2: A non-Fearless 4-model squad fires plasma guns out of their vehicle's fire point. One model rolls a "1" to hit, then fails its "get hot" armor save (i.e., 25% casualties in your own shooting phase).

Does either squad have to take a morale check? If so, what happens?

H1: This one becomes more or less clear, if you break it down into steps, IMO. In other words; what comes first?
- You move the unit.
- You encounter the dangerous terrain.
- You make the dangerous terrain test.
- You take the 25% morale check.
- You fail the test.
- Your unit falls back, as they suffered the casualty BEFORE they reached the Transport.
(e.g. They panicked before they reached, and HENCE entered the transport, and therefore falls back per standard Fall Back rules.)

H2: This one is the REAL trickster. Per "Trapped!" rule, it's indicated that "If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed". This begs the question, if the unit is allowed to exit the vehicle or not. If NO, the unit is destroyed, as per Trapped!-rule.
- However; the Disembarking-rule does NOT indicate that the unit is only capable of disembaring in the movement phase. This only apply to the Embarking-rule. But as the rules does not clearly indicate either, it's uncertain if the unit is either destroyed (from not being able to disembark) or can exit and fall back (from being ABLE to disembark, as the rule does NOT restrict this action by the turns phase (opposed to the Embarking-rule)).

nosferatu1001 wrote:They cannot move the full fall back distance, ever, because they cannot move Thus they are destroyed

Yeah, i have read the rulebook a few times, and i know there isn't a rule like this.

Happyjew wrote:Look at the example in the bgb. The gretchin are surrounded and cannot move the required 8" in any direction. If you are in a vehicle, you cannot move x" in any direction.

The poor gretchin are indeed pancake, but you can not substitute one rule for another. And there is not much connecting these two "matters".

Bla_Ze wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Look at the example in the bgb. The gretchin are surrounded and cannot move the required 8" in any direction. If you are in a vehicle, you cannot move x" in any direction.

The poor gretchin are indeed pancake, but you can not substitute one rule for another. And there is not much connecting these two "matters".

Other than that you cannot move the full fallback distance, hence: trapped.

That being said, I feel that the unit inside just disembarks and falls back. The only restriction on disembarking (aside from the standard within 2", etc.) is that you cannot both voluntarily embark and disembark on the same turn.

Happyjew wrote:Look at the example in the bgb. The gretchin are surrounded and cannot move the required 8" in any direction. If you are in a vehicle, you cannot move x" in any direction.

But are you moving, you can not even begin to compare being in a transport to being between two units that have space to move. The rule specifically says that if you can not move the full distance without doubling back, if you can not move at all then how are you doubling back?

Shrike325 wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Look at the example in the bgb. The gretchin are surrounded and cannot move the required 8" in any direction. If you are in a vehicle, you cannot move x" in any direction.

The poor gretchin are indeed pancake, but you can not substitute one rule for another. And there is not much connecting these two "matters".

Other than that you cannot move the full fallback distance, hence: trapped.

That being said, I feel that the unit inside just disembarks and falls back. The only restriction on disembarking (aside from the standard within 2", etc.) is that you cannot both voluntarily embark and disembark on the same turn.

As I posed to happyjew on this issue, if you can not move at all how are you doubling back?

So, the situation is an embarked unit becomes broken. Do they roll around in their transport firing during their shooting phase and taking morale tests and rolling an ineffectual 2D6 to flee at the beginning of every turn? No. The rules specifically state that they MUST move 2D6 without doubling back. If they were in a U shaped canyon with impassable terrain all around, and they were forced to flee into the U, they would be destroyed because they could not move the full 2D6. Since failing a morale test does not force or allow a unit to disembark, they cannot move the full 2D6 and are destroyed.

Billinator - panic checks are taken at the END of the phase, which is AFTER you have embarked.

Saiisil, Bla_ze: You cannot move the full distance without doubling back

You cannot move the full distance - check, you cannot move at all
SO you are destroyed. Simple as.

I'm with Nos on this one.
The test is at the end of the phase.
this is not open for debate as it's very clear in the rules

If you cannot move your full fallback distance, the unit is destroyed.

You cannot embark and disembark in the same movement phase.

If you embark into a vehicle, you cannot move out of the vehicle if you fail the test.

so the fact that you cannot fall back kicks in, and the unit is duly destroyed.

BRB p45 wrote:If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any
direction without doubling back, it is destroyed

BRB p66 wrote:Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the
Movement phase, and may not voluntarily both embark
and disembark in the same player turn.

marv335 wrote:I'm with Nos on this one.
The test is at the end of the phase.
this is not open for debate as it's very clear in the rules

If you cannot move your full fallback distance, the unit is destroyed.

You cannot voluntarily embark and disembark in the same movement phase.

If you embark into a vehicle, you cannot move out of the vehicle voluntarily if you fail the test.

so the fact that you cannot fall back kicks in, and the unit is duly destroyed.

BRB p45 wrote:If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any
direction without doubling back, it is destroyed

BRB p66 wrote:Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the
Movement phase, and may not voluntarily both embark
and disembark in the same player turn.

Bolded the voluntarily for you. This is what makes the difference. A fall back move is NOT voluntary and it can be argued that if a squad is required to fall back in this situation, they would disembark and fall back.

Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

it is unfortunante that GW hasn't FAQd this because its a serious problem, especially with the existance of Psyker henchmen and squads of Plasma Gunners that can kill themselves while inside a vehicle and have a fairly good chance of doing so.


I frankly think the proper way to fix this would be to force the squad to do an emergency disembarkation and become Pinned. Of course this would be a house rule because the rules don't cover this.


As for Rules as Written, a hole in the fabric of reality is torn and we get sucked into the warp to be tormented by daemons. Special punishment is reserved for the GW design team who forgot to fix this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

I would say that there is no restriction on them disembarking other than it cannot be voluntary, which a fallback move is not.

Shrike325 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

I would say that there is no restriction on them disembarking other than it cannot be voluntary, which a fallback move is not.

this is a permissive rule set. they need permission to disembark.

nos, tell me is a unit inside a transport able to move at all?

Grey Templar wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

I would say that there is no restriction on them disembarking other than it cannot be voluntary, which a fallback move is not.

this is a permissive rule set. they need permission to disembark.

They have permission to disembark. A unit ALWAYS has the ability to disembark. The restrictions are when it has embarked that turn, or a vehicle moves above cruising speed (or has deep struck that turn? I could be wrong here). However, the restrictions on those are always voluntarily

If the vehicle hasn't moved, they may disembark and move as normal. If the vehicle has moved, they may disembark but cannot move any further. However, the only time you may disembark is during the movement phase (if you did not embark) or if the vehicle they are in is wrecked.
IIRC if a vehicle moves flatout you cannot disembark. Or is that only embarking?

Shrike325 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they have no allowance to disembark, so they cannot

I would say that there is no restriction on them disembarking other than it cannot be voluntary, which a fallback move is not.

this is a permissive rule set. they need permission to disembark.

They have permission to disembark. A unit ALWAYS has the ability to disembark. The restrictions are when it has embarked that turn, or a vehicle moves above cruising speed (or has deep struck that turn? I could be wrong here). However, the restrictions on those are always voluntarily

Really?


Thats awsome, Now I can disembark when my transport is about to get slagged by my enemies Meltaguns so i won't have to take pinning tests when it blows up!!!