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FFG also corrected that disparity for the most part. Base FFG rules are basically Movie Marine, while the FAQed rules arec closer to lore.

You know I never thought of that. Dose anyone have a actual codex or rule book reference that says women can't be SM?.

Melissia wrote:FFG also corrected that disparity for the most part.

The optional weapon errata in DW (which is the new standard in BC)? I don't see the correction at all, there still is a huge gap which doesn't mesh with how I grew to understand the setting and that prevents proper cross-overs. All the errata did was lowering max damage and boosting min damage; the average only seems to lose about a single point of damage (for example, Marine boltguns are still 25% more powerful than, say, a Sister's or an Inquisitor's). The biggest change seems to be the Rate of Fire which has apparently fixed the broken heavy bolter that was heavily criticized by players. On the downside, autoguns not being capable of automatic fire just seems odd, but I think this only applies in DW as well and not in BC.

As a whole, the disparity in FFG's games is (sadly) entirely intentional and fully described in the fluff texts of DH, DW and especially BC where they even explain it for each weapon type individually. Naturally, Marine fans like this, but "normal" characters including the Inquisition are losing out. Except if you play a Vindicare - the one and only human who gets an Astartes grade bolt pistol.

The good thing about Pen & Paper games, however, is that all of these things can be houseruled, depending on which interpretation of the setting the group is going to follow and what everyone agrees on for the sake of an enjoyable game. Alternatively, the problem can also be avoided by simply not playing a combat-focused character, thus (hopefully) not generating a situation where one's competency is called into question. But I suppose all of this belongs into the RPG subforum rather than this thread.

Where was the major difference in the weapons, in the damage roll, the penetration, or were both weaker for human sized weapons?

Lynata wrote:The optional weapon errata in DW? I don't see the correction at all

You can try reading it, then you'll see the difference.

I mean, 2d10+5 is rather different from 1d10+9.

nomotog wrote:You know I never thought of that. Dose anyone have a actual codex or rule book reference that says women can't be SM?.

Yes.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:The optional weapon errata in DW? I don't see the correction at all

You can try reading it, then you'll see the difference.
I mean, 2d10+5 is rather different from 1d10+9.

Average damage for 2d10+5 is 16, average damage for 1d10+9 is 14.5, which is a loss of a whopping 1.5 points like I have already pointed out above. I'm sorry, I just don't see the massive nerf here, and let's just leave it at that instead of accusing each other of not reading things.

daveNYC wrote:Where was the major difference in the weapons, in the damage roll, the penetration, or were both weaker for human sized weapons?

That depends on the system; they keep changing stats around a lot. For example, the first Marine bolt weapons had a damage of 2d10, then they jumped to 2d10+5, now they're 1d10+9. In DW, they have a Penetration value of 5, but in Black Crusade it's down to 4. For comparison, a human bolter has always had 1d10+5, pen 4 in every system. The disparity also seems to grow the more powerful the weapons you want to compare are.

It's just a pet-peeve I have with FFG's interpretation of the setting, as it makes "mixed parties" notably more difficult than in, say, GW's Inquisitor RPG. Still love playing them, though, and I'll continue to recommend them to anyone who likes 40k and roleplaying, as the basic system is sound and anything you don't like can easily be houseruled. Apologies for side-tracking the thread.

nomotog wrote:You know I never thought of that. Dose anyone have a actual codex or rule book reference that says women can't be SM?.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't in the space marine codex.

Marines only being male is canon. It has been for a long time.

somecallmeJack wrote:

nomotog wrote:You know I never thought of that. Dose anyone have a actual codex or rule book reference that says women can't be SM?.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't in the space marine codex.

Marines only being male is canon. It has been for a long time.

Well that's what everyone says, but I was wondering if there was any actual base for it. Like a codex page number.

It's in the Deathwatch RPG corebook for a recent source.

A rule which I have thoroughly ignored, I should note.

For why women can't be SM, try the article in the first Index Astartes about the process of becoming a Marine.

In blood gorgons i think it said that the chaos space marine in it was about 300km.

wouldn't the gravity on the planet change the weight of the marine.

- ironhandstraken

ironhandstraken wrote:In blood gorgons i think it said that the chaos space marine in it was about 300km.

300 kilometers?

Are you sure?

That seems kind of short.

ironhandstraken wrote:In blood gorgons i think it said that the chaos space marine in it was about 300km.

wouldn't the gravity on the planet change the weight of the marine.

- ironhandstraken

Yes it would. Though the thread probably means earth weight and it's really really doubtful that any source would take into account gravity. We could talk mass. That dosen't change based on gravity.

Gravity woudl not change the mass (IE, kilograms) of an object. Only its weight (IE, pounds and similar measurements).

.....Kilograms is a measure of weight you know....

They're heavy enough to be really heavy, yet light enough for a Guardsman and a dockmaster to drag.

/thread

Soladrin wrote:.....Kilograms is a measure of weight you know....

No, Melissia is right. Kilograms is a measure of mass. The metric weight is something different, but it's used so rarely that when someone uses kilograms you should just assume they mean weight. You know unless they are shooting rockets.

Soladrin wrote:.....Kilograms is a measure of weight you know....

The -gram measurement is of mass. It does not vary with gravity like weight does.

It's only weight measurement used here though.

Yes, and because the -gram measurement is mass, someone who "weighs" 61 kilograms on Earth also "weighs" 61 kilograms on the moon.

wikipedia wrote:The kilogram or kilogramme (symbol: kg) is the base unit of mass in the International System of Units (SI, from the French Le Système International d’Unités),

Emphasis mine.

Really, the use of grams to measure "weight" is probably a misuse of the tool...

People complaining about marines being able to do handstands and things and claiming it's impossible with so much armour on:

Power armoured movement is aided by the armour itself, using lots of servos built into the suit. When the marine inside moves the power armour does loads of the work for him (hence the name power armour. it's not just armour, it's armour with powered movement). The power armour helps support it's own weight allowing for marines to move as if they're not wearing it. That's why they can move so fast and dodge and duck without becoming tired. To them it feels as though they're only wearing a light tunic.

The above would be reasonable if the armour would be skin-tight and only a couple millimeters thick. As it is, however, the very construction of the suit should limit the mobility of the various limbs somewhat, simply because the various plates will clash against each other when moving.* Unless you have some serious gaps between the joints, more than the miniatures and drawings suggest.

*: At least it does in my perception of the setting. I won't try to force it upon others.

Melissia wrote:Yes, and because the -gram measurement is mass, someone who "weighs" 61 kilograms on Earth also "weighs" 61 kilograms on the moon.

wikipedia wrote:The kilogram or kilogramme (symbol: kg) is the base unit of mass in the International System of Units (SI, from the French Le Système International d’Unités),

Emphasis mine.

Really, the use of grams to measure "weight" is probably a misuse of the tool...

Fair enough, didn't know that It's just how we do things in Europe.

As I said in another thread, marine armour must contain some sort of anti grav device to keep weight down, for reasons "explained" below:

It's powered armour. It moves as you move, it's basically an extension of your body. It's not like if you put on plate armour from medival times (and those are heavy). With those, it's you moving the armour. But since a SM's is powered. It moves too. Try searching up some of this on youtube. They're developing "iron man" armour.

The black carapace underneath their skin plugs in with their armour and provides basically a neuro link, making it part of them.

Lynata made a point though about how it could be cumbersome, with all the armour plates. I think it would be safe to assume that the way they're positioned maximizes protection and movement. Although it has been stated a couple time in BL novels that the joints aren't completely covered, so aiming for those points would generally make things easier.

As to how heavy it could be? I remember from another BL book, I think it was an Ultramarine novel (I apologize I dont remember, it's been a while), when the power pack failed, the marine could still move, but slowly. Considering SM are extremely strong... I'd have to guess maybe a tonne? Cause you have to remember it's basically concrete armour (ceramite) and lots of metal....

Power Armour is described as a second skin to Space Marines. Terminator Armour on the other hand, you can barely move in that.

Power armor can be all the second skin you want, but that dosen't change the fact that the shoulders pads would keep you from lifting your hands over your head. That's kind of a trait of all imperial gear. It looks slow and clunky, but then the description say no it can actually tap dance. Meanwhile your scratching your head trying to figure out where the shoes go.

nomotog wrote:Power armor can be all the second skin you want, but that dosen't change the fact that the shoulders pads would keep you from lifting your hands over your head.

Pic from this posters work:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/47845-vossyvo.html

Dakka Gallery provides...

Seems its possible.

I pick not to believe that miniature. Well not really, but how do the pads attach. In that one it looks like they are attached on the arms, but that would make it harder for you to flap your arms. Then if they attached to your shoulders it would make it hard to swing your arms.