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The shoulder pauldrons might not be the issue, there can be explanations for that. I seem to recall they have been described as "auto-reactive" in some books, which can suggest that they move up and down the arm as required by the move you want to do.

However, look at the armour covering the upper part of the arm, and then look at the chestplate. You'll note that this guy couldn't hold his arm straight ahead. How exactly is he supposed to swing his sword?

And in this moment we realize that miniatures like these are designed for a single stance only.

We should really be asking the cosplayers these questions?

Yes, Power Armour is a second skin to an Astartes. Doesn't matter, the mass of the armour plus the mass of the Astartes within will increase the weight due to W=mg, mass times the gravitational field strength of the Earth equals the weight. Increased weight means a larger force on any surface, they cannot feasibly walk on any surface that can't take the force of their steps.

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, Power Armour is a second skin to an Astartes. Doesn't matter, the mass of the armour plus the mass of the Astartes within will increase the weight due to W=mg, mass times the gravitational field strength of the Earth equals the weight. Increased weight means a larger force on any surface, they cannot feasibly walk on any surface that can't take the force of their steps.

Very true. I only meant to say that for an astartes, the armour is weightless to them. Of course it could get in the way, and it's obvious that there are surfaces that they cannot walk on (i.e. a glass ceiling)

It could be advanced technology...Allowing for both. I think they're supposed to be somewhat intelligent and move in order to cooperate with the marine's arms. The massive pad may actually only somewhat limit the shoulder's range of motion.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, Power Armour is a second skin to an Astartes. Doesn't matter, the mass of the armour plus the mass of the Astartes within will increase the weight due to W=mg, mass times the gravitational field strength of the Earth equals the weight. Increased weight means a larger force on any surface, they cannot feasibly walk on any surface that can't take the force of their steps.

Very true. I only meant to say that for an astartes, the armour is weightless to them. Of course it could get in the way, and it's obvious that there are surfaces that they cannot walk on (i.e. a glass ceiling)

Very true, maneuverability is not hindered by the armour. Their sheer size is really what causes problems, but to be honest, it isn't really a problem unless they're fighting in the Shire. An Asartes could quite easily walk around my work building, or house.

Unless they wanted to get through a door or hallway anyway.

Astartes make their own doors!!!!

*CRASSH*

Armor tends to be heavy. Having artificial muscles to help carry that heavy armor means the body itself is not as encumbered and can operate for longer without strain. But it wouldn't help with issues like ground pressure or bulk. Tech like suspensors could help with ground pressure as well further lightening the burden, if the armor has it.

And while mass or ground pressure can be potential problems - its the general volume and bulkiness of the armor. Range of motion, accessibility to buildings, silhouette, etc. The armor could be very large or bulky but not neccesarily massive depending on the materials it was made from (high tech materials will not neccesarily be super-duper dense to be effective - it depends entirely on the properties of the material and what you expect/want the material to do.)

It doesn't help either that depending on the artist, some power armor will be even blockier/bulkier and more unwieldy than others. Hell its not just the power armor either - some of the uniforms or outfits will look incredibly blocky (I can't look at that one image of the IG commander, Inquisitor, and Ultramarine without wincing. I always keep picturing them getting wedged trying to pass through a gate like that at the shoulders.)

Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

Connor MacLeod wrote:And while mass or ground pressure can be potential problems - its the general volume and bulkiness of the armor. Range of motion, accessibility to buildings, silhouette, etc. The armor could be very large or bulky but not neccesarily massive depending on the materials it was made from (high tech materials will not neccesarily be super-duper dense to be effective - it depends entirely on the properties of the material and what you expect/want the material to do.)

Quite so, and one of the reasons for why I don't subscribe to the "ubersize" equipment idea. At some point you'll get to a level where a Marine will no longer be able to grasp his gun with both arms because either the chestplate or the weapon are too bulky and keep bumping against each other. Judging from the miniatures it looks already obstructive enough.

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

It's an absolutely valid interpretation. Hell, even GW wrote it into one of their Codices at least once. I'm not really sure if I like it, but (like with most of the dozens of gadgets apparently included in Astartes suits) I can see the advantages in certain situations. Limited weight negation not only allows the wearer to traverse areas where a heavier being would break through the floor, but also increase movement speed and jumping distance and thus general mobility. On the downside, it'd make it a little easier for strong enemies to just push him around.

Maybe it's just something I need to get used to. I've only read the AoD Codex very recently and have never before heard of such a device or feature so the general idea is still fairly new for me.

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

Well i ask because I read about them being put on some of there heavy weapons, but ya they probably don't have the money to put them in every suit of power armor. unless the suits have them already and they just don't know something like that.

daveNYC wrote:

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

They don't need to shrink the tech down, simply be in possession of a STC Template that details anti-grav units for Mark-whatever Astartes Power Armor. That they have few anti-grav generators for vehicles and many for armor indicates simply a missing STC Template for the vehicle version, not a lack of technical understanding.

Psienesis wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

They don't need to shrink the tech down, simply be in possession of a STC Template that details anti-grav units for Mark-whatever Astartes Power Armor. That they have few anti-grav generators for vehicles and many for armor indicates simply a missing STC Template for the vehicle version, not a lack of technical understanding.

I did mention this quite allot earlier. And anti-grav is extremely common in the IoM: Servo Skulls.

Shadowbrand wrote:I thought power armor was a a ton? And Terminator armor is -twice- as bulky. So double the weight. I imagine even a storm shield would be heavy as feth.

Size means nothing, a smaller stone could weigh more than a larger stone because of what it is made of.

daveNYC wrote:

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

What, you mean like grav-chutes or suspensors? Suspensors are used for hairstyling and furniture - what makes you think they couldn't put it into vehicles?

We actually know they do have lots of grav vehicles. The IG in garrison duty will requisition them from planets (3rd Ed IG codex) and a good many novels have skimmers or flyers or other grav vehicles. Hell IIRC one of the Apocalypse books notes that Valkyires/vultures use suspensors as well as vectored thrust.

The reason why you don't get many grav vehicles in the Imperium's military is the same reason power armor and boltguns aren't standard issue - it's high maintenance and not every world can afford to build or maintain that due to the fact the Imperium has a highly irregular tech base across it's scope. "ease of maintenance" and "easy repar" and "easy to supply" are all watchwords that many parts of the Imperial military operate by because they assume the worst and casualties are a necessary evil.

Edit: Also, what Psienesis said. You've got a sizable contingent in the AdMech who would gak a brick at innovating or modifying the holy tech (not that it doesn't happen, eg Space Marines making modifications.)


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Lynata wrote:Quite so, and one of the reasons for why I don't subscribe to the "ubersize" equipment idea. At some point you'll get to a level where a Marine will no longer be able to grasp his gun with both arms because either the chestplate or the weapon are too bulky and keep bumping against each other. Judging from the miniatures it looks already obstructive enough.

I always like to picture what would happen if this guy tried swinging a sword at an Eldar and his armor gets in the way.

Funny enough I always liked some of the Imperial ARmour drawings of Space Marine Armour like this one Although some of the leg armor looks a tad bulky. We might explain that as a coverage issue - it looks there like the plates are larger/heavier to cover up exposed joints better. Which might be useful in a firefight, or boarding action, but when you have to move about or fight, it probably gets in the way.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:Do people think they put anti gravity generators into the armor?

Who says they would put it on every bit of armor and leave it there? For all we know the ones with the antigrav could be restricted to artificer suits, or just the really old power armor that a Chapter may retain. They place a big premium on reusing or incorporating bits of old armor and tech from past wearers (both for traditional/ritual purposes as well as practical ones.) Or alternately, its simply a modification to the power armor for specific roles (not only to make the armor lighter, but it can allow them to carry more ammo or greater weight without being slowed down.)

I missed the mass vs weight argument a page ago, but I'm going to bring it up again! (Because science is fun!)

Weight is equal to the mass of an object multiplied by the gravitational field strength.

The kilogram is the SI unit of mass. The newton (kg*m/s^2) is the SI unit of weight.

The ___gram is the metric measurement of mass. The ___gram-force is the metric measurement of weight.

The pound is the imperial measurement of either weight or mass. Yes, the US measurement system is really screwed up.

Your weight changes depending on the gravitational field around you. So, in deep space, you weigh nothing. On the Sun, you weigh 27.9 times as much. And, at the poles, you weigh 0.5% more than you do at the equator.

Your mass is pretty much constant. It does vary a bit due to relativistic effects (E=mc^2). But, it's pretty much negligible, as long as you're not moving at relativistic speeds.


This thread is really asking about the mass of the armor, not the weight.

Yes, but it's the weight that causes the problem. No surface the Astartes walk on will be flat, not perfectly. The force on a plane will always be F=Wsinθ.

vodo40k wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

daveNYC wrote:The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

They don't need to shrink the tech down, simply be in possession of a STC Template that details anti-grav units for Mark-whatever Astartes Power Armor. That they have few anti-grav generators for vehicles and many for armor indicates simply a missing STC Template for the vehicle version, not a lack of technical understanding.

I did mention this quite allot earlier. And anti-grav is extremely common in the IoM: Servo Skulls.

The missing STC is a neat explanation. It could simply be that common contemporary Imperial anti-grav technology, although still around, is not as efficient as "back then" - meaning, even if you could just combine units into clusters, the decline in power would mean that you'd need much larger machinery to reliably lift an item of heavy weight ... such as a tank. It has gotten more costly and more complicated to build and to maintain such devices, too, so I suppose at some point they were simply phased out, with the higher quality pieces that still work a little closer to their original efficiency being used only by someone with access to great wealth and skilled labor. And whereas the Space Marines and a few nobles may fall into this description, it just isn't something for the Guard. It's exactly the same reason they issue lasguns instead of bolters - it's way cheaper, it's way more reliable on the long run, and it gets the job done almost as good. So tracked/wheeled promethium-powered vehicles it is!

It may also be worth noting that both heavy weapon suspensors as well as the potential inclusion of such a device into a suit of armour don't negate the weight of the item they are attached to entirely (this would actually be counter-productive ) ... it's just enough to make them somewhat lighter, the exact degree of this effect being as open to interpretation as the basic idea itself.

Suspensors, IIRC aren't just making the weapon lighter and easier to manuver.. they actually provide some stability (including some sort of recoil compensation, I would assume, if it is going to stabilize the gun). It seems likely that the gun is exerting some sort of force (how it interacts iwth the surroundings is a different matter, but there are some ways I think.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also remind that you don't have to have the suspensor system "built in" to the armor for it to work. Apparently you can just stick them on things and have the effect happen (at least thats how I understand them working.) - you just slap on the suspensor and it does what its supposed to. It wouldnt surprise me if some Chapter has its techmarines adapt suspensors or design some way for them to do that. It's not as if Space Marines haven't given the finger to the AdMech when it comes to doing things they think makes sense (Space Wolves and Blood Angels, I'm looking at you.)

Lynata wrote:

vodo40k wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

daveNYC wrote:The Imperium can barely put anti-gravity generators in vehicles, it's highly unlikely that they can manage to shrink the tech down and stick it into armor.

They don't need to shrink the tech down, simply be in possession of a STC Template that details anti-grav units for Mark-whatever Astartes Power Armor. That they have few anti-grav generators for vehicles and many for armor indicates simply a missing STC Template for the vehicle version, not a lack of technical understanding.

I did mention this quite allot earlier. And anti-grav is extremely common in the IoM: Servo Skulls.

The missing STC is a neat explanation. It could simply be that common contemporary Imperial anti-grav technology, although still around, is not as efficient as "back then" - meaning, even if you could just combine units into clusters, the decline in power would mean that you'd need much larger machinery to reliably lift an item of heavy weight ... such as a tank. It has gotten more costly and more complicated to build and to maintain such devices, too, so I suppose at some point they were simply phased out, with the higher quality pieces that still work a little closer to their original efficiency being used only by someone with access to great wealth and skilled labor. And whereas the Space Marines and a few nobles may fall into this description, it just isn't something for the Guard. It's exactly the same reason they issue lasguns instead of bolters - it's way cheaper, it's way more reliable on the long run, and it gets the job done almost as good. So tracked/wheeled promethium-powered vehicles it is!

It may also be worth noting that both heavy weapon suspensors as well as the potential inclusion of such a device into a suit of armour don't negate the weight of the item they are attached to entirely (this would actually be counter-productive ) ... it's just enough to make them somewhat lighter, the exact degree of this effect being as open to interpretation as the basic idea itself.

Indeed, the imperium probably has a good amount of anti-grav vehicle STC's in its arsenal, but due to the greed of the Ad Mech only a few forge worlds will have them. Even then they are probably very difficult to produce but far more importantly far more difficult to maintain in the field. This is probably why the Leman Russ has remained the standard IG tank for 10k years and not the Grav attack tank. Due to the rare, ancient and limited number qualities of power armour, I see absolutely no reason why there would not be small anti grav servos keeping the weight down. I refer again to "Wooden Stairs" and "Swamps".

We know the planet Stalinvast in the Inquisition War made grav tanks, and there were military-grade speeder/skimmers available for purchase by civilian/mercanary groups. We know that a good many sectors throughout the Imperium have skimmers, flyers, and the various kind. It's not so much that "they don't exist" or "they exist but the AdMech won't share." It's more the way the Imperial procurement process goes - the fault lies with the Munitorum if there is a fault, and to be honest I'm not sure they'd be totally wrong. It's rather unlikely that you could get suspensor tech on a primitive world, after all, and if your regiment is reliant primarily on AG tech to get around and fight effectively they'd be screwed.

I suspect that if the Imperial Guard or such use AG vehicles, they either requisition them from high tech worlds they are garrisoning (And are thsu close to the supply line) or are used in inter-sector/subsector warfares, where lines of supply are likely to be at least somewhat consistent or reasonable. On the other hand, you can't count on military procurement to always go for the "best gear" - they tend to judge things by their own criteria, for good or ill.