Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"I usually have 100% paypal up front"

A warning sign if there ever was one.

I've been burned BIGTIME on this one.

Best thing really is some sort of one third to start, one third half way through (with WIP pics) and the final third upon receipt.

Or some sort of 50/50 deal.

Once they have your models and your money up front?

Well, if they are a scammer, you've been scammed.

Luckily you leave relatively close to this guy AND can bring legal action to bear against him.

I think you'll be OK, but of course there is the time, money and hassle - but if you get your stuff back, and some or all of the money, well it will be worth it.

Good luck - I'm pulling for you!

Well Mike crawled out of whatever rock he was hiding under.

He claims his computer was broken (which I don't believe since I saw him of FB during the time his computer {he claims} was broken). And, I have no idea why he couldn't answer his phone during all of this.

He says he doesn't have the money to pay me back and no mention of the status of the job.

evancich wrote:Well Mike crawled out of whatever rock he was hiding under.

He claims his computer was broken (which I don't believe since I saw him of FB during the time his computer {he claims} was broken). And, I have no idea why he couldn't answer his phone during all of this.

He says he doesn't have the money to pay me back and no mention of the status of the job.

Other than his FB where else does he advertise his work and have his followers?
Its best to also raise your issue there for all to see, while simultaneously get police involved.

Since he still refuse to be honest with you at this point, its time to get serious.
The if and but period is over.

Just drive down to his house again. Tell him to give you your models and eat whatever monetary loss is involved. It's probably not worth your time or effort to invest anything more into this situation.

Now I know not to use this guy. When I went to the NOVA Open, I won a door prize from this guy. Although I never met him, it was 10 25mm scenic bases that he painted and I assumed he made. If I had the desire, I might be able to dig up the little card that came with it. Regardless this is either someone who became really busy(but that doesn't explain the lack of returning calls) or the worst scammer in the world.

Going to his house could be potentially dangerous, although getting the police involved could leave you feeling bitter. After all, what if there was a good reason for all of this?



Edit: Oh wait never mind, he responded. Have you considered getting the attention of a collection agency?

I already involved the police. I've filled out the paperwork for a small claims suit (I guess sometimes it pays to be a patent attorney).

I told Mike that I won't file the suit if he could show up at my office in DC with my models and some money.

He, of course, hasn't replied. So, I guess we are headed to court.

My county is figuring out how to play the charge. Since the value of the models and cash I paid him is over a thousand dollars is it a felony. Either they will issue a warrant for his arrest or a summons to court to answer the charge.

I've heard he has trouble finding a job and I'm going to get a felony theft charge added to his record. That won't help his job search at all.

I feel for you. I lost $500 and models to Painter6479 when he imploded. I ended up getting my models and $50 back, but the $450 loss sucked.
I've had a friend lose thousands in models and over a $ thousand before.

Hopefully, you get your stuff back. Stay on top of the police to be sure they don't dally too long.


Eric

gak like this is always depressing, so I'll attempt to make you feel better with a great visual aid in painting/model building .

So when you snag yourself a new Apothocary to build:











Humor aside; just stay on the guys case he'll either break from the constant pressure or get slammed for it by the proper authorities.

All the horror stories I read on dakka make me worry about ever getting a commish painting

I hope you get all your models and cash back

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:All the horror stories I read on dakka make me worry about ever getting a commish painting

I hope you get all your models and cash back

Not all commission painter are bad, I've had some very good experiances with one in perticular. There are several things you as a buyer can do to protect yourself, mainly reserching the painter in question and not giving him everything up front. Reputation seems to be everything in the internet commission buisness.

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:All the horror stories I read on dakka make me worry about ever getting a commish painting

I hope you get all your models and cash back

That's really like saying, 'all the horror stories I read about lousy opponents on dakka makes me worry about ever getting a game in.'

People talk a lot more, and a lot more fervently, about the exceptionally bad experiences than the good ones. You also generally don't see threads titled, "help, the commission painter did a good job fast! What do i do now?"

Portugal Jones wrote:

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:All the horror stories I read on dakka make me worry about ever getting a commish painting

I hope you get all your models and cash back

That's really like saying, 'all the horror stories I read about lousy opponents on dakka makes me worry about ever getting a game in.'

People talk a lot more, and a lot more fervently, about the exceptionally bad experiences than the good ones. You also generally don't see threads titled, "help, the commission painter did a good job fast! What do i do now?"

True, but I paint all my own stuff, so I never planned a commish in the first place

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Portugal Jones wrote:

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:All the horror stories I read on dakka make me worry about ever getting a commish painting

I hope you get all your models and cash back

That's really like saying, 'all the horror stories I read about lousy opponents on dakka makes me worry about ever getting a game in.'

People talk a lot more, and a lot more fervently, about the exceptionally bad experiences than the good ones. You also generally don't see threads titled, "help, the commission painter did a good job fast! What do i do now?"

True, but I paint all my own stuff, so I never planned a commish in the first place

Then why worry in the first place?

In the off chance I changed my mind?

You should find out if he has a business license. If he hasn't been reporting income and is operating without a license, not charging tax etc maybe you can blast him with alot more trouble than small claims court.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:I know Mike is a volunteer fire fighter... perhaps a lot of calls happening. I follow him on twitter, and he hasn't done anything since Sept. 2, so perhaps he finally got a job and hasn't gotten time to your models (or he's homeless now).

My son is a volunteer firefighter, goes to school and holds down two jobs - as well as being married. He's only 22 years old.
If he could find the time to return a phone call or answer the door, so can this guy.

Eric

I know, I'm not defending him, I answer emails and phone calls all day while I grade like 60 pages of work at a day. I'm just giving more background information. I mean the man did start this commission business because he was out of work.


The idea of camping outside his house is not only creepy, its also illegal I believe. BUT you're right, there has to be a way to get a hold of him.

The_Stormrider wrote:You should find out if he has a business license. If he hasn't been reporting income and is operating without a license, not charging tax etc maybe you can blast him with alot more trouble than small claims court.

Depending on where he is based, he might not need a Business license. You never pay tax on service (painting), and and he is possible he is reporting income to the state and IRS.

However, I highly doubt it if he has a normal job.

This is a civil issue. The police will take a report as a matter of record, but ultimately, little will be done other than that.

Going to his house to knock on his door to ask for your items back is not illegal. Banging on the door until someone answers can backfire with you getting a summons for disturbing the peace. It's not trespassing until you're told by them not to come back (they have to prove they told you) or the Police advise you not to go back.

I'd contact his FD. Since it's a volunteer company, you'd likely need to leave a message with the PD or other service the Chief gets info from. Likely there's a web page for the FD that can give you some leads.

Looks like he's posted on Facebook claiming he's 'alive'.

His painting services sound like utter crap to... Tier 1: 3 colors? wtf is that lol

IdentifyZero wrote:Looks like he's posted on Facebook claiming he's 'alive'.

His painting services sound like utter crap to... Tier 1: 3 colors? wtf is that lol

Its for those of us that REALLLY don't want to paint their models, and Tier 1 for him is the low end...

I just don't buy the "my computer was down" excuse.

First of all, I'd never take on a commission without exchanging full contact info with a client. Secondly, there's internet access everywhere. He didn't have a friend who would let him sit on his computer for 10 minutes and get in touch with his clients? Also, there should still be a bunch of freshly painted stuff ready to ship... unless he painted models with his computer. It just all seems fishy to me.

As for "tiers"... that has always seemed like a bad idea to me. I paint armies I am proud to say I painted. period. I can't imagine doing anything else.

It is not civil it is criminal. Not sure of the actual law up there but it is essentially theft of property. He has physical control of another persons property and refuses to return.

@OP Stay on your local authorities. And I would recommed not going to his home anymore. You showing at his place and something goes wrong is real easy to get turned into you are over there looking for trouble. You have done all you can legally just let it play out in court.

Battle Ready Studios wrote:I just don't buy the "my computer was down" excuse.

First of all, I'd never take on a commission without exchanging full contact info with a client. Secondly, there's internet access everywhere. He didn't have a friend who would let him sit on his computer for 10 minutes and get in touch with his clients? Also, there should still be a bunch of freshly painted stuff ready to ship... unless he painted models with his computer. It just all seems fishy to me.

As for "tiers"... that has always seemed like a bad idea to me. I paint armies I am proud to say I painted. period. I can't imagine doing anything else.

I agree with everything.

Not sure what internet and having a computer, have to do with finishing peoples models; not to mention the plentiful access to WiFi in any Urban Area both through coffee shops and/or unsecured networks.

Sounds like snatch'n'grab strategy.

Analyzing pattern of "excuses"

-after loss of internet / hacked computer/ broken camera etc etc

- sickness in family
the level of sickness will get worse depending how long OP tries to get back his items.

- perhaps escalates to "death"

at this stage its pretty "grim" literally. chances are using this specific excuse to cut all ties with OP / customer.
Or use it to get angry that the excuse isnt enough, customers must be inhumane to not let him go etc etc.

evancich wrote:I already involved the police. I've filled out the paperwork for a small claims suit (I guess sometimes it pays to be a patent attorney).

I told Mike that I won't file the suit if he could show up at my office in DC with my models and some money.

He, of course, hasn't replied. So, I guess we are headed to court.

My county is figuring out how to play the charge. Since the value of the models and cash I paid him is over a thousand dollars is it a felony. Either they will issue a warrant for his arrest or a summons to court to answer the charge.

I've heard he has trouble finding a job and I'm going to get a felony theft charge added to his record. That won't help his job search at all.

I'm truly sorry to see another hobbyist having to deal with this, but you're taking the right course of action. At this point you've given him more than ample opportunity to rectify the situation. And if you're not satisfied with just getting your models back, don't stop there. Regardless of what's happened in his personal life, this person has stolen from you and should be held accountable for these actions. If it's worth over $1k, let him face the felony charges. I have no sympathy for people who run from their problems, if you can't do something you committed to, at least put in some effort to try and fix it. Best of luck to you with the rest of this, I hope it works out for you in the end.

Good luck with the court case, hope you get your stuff back.

Its scary to see these stories, people are right, commishers like this really bring shame to the franchise.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but $400?! And that didn't worry you? That's basically working for nothing. The timescale he gave you is dodgy as hell too - 2 months to paint something like 5 Large Monsters and damn near 60 Infantry size, to various schemes and to match what was already done?

It does make me chuckle sometimes that people think commission paintwork (to a professional standard) can be done for that sort of money. Yeah mate, I'll sell you a Ferrari... 25 bucks... yeah, it's genuine, honest, would I lie to you? Just to make it clear I AM NOT SELLING YOU A FERRARI FOR $25. DON'T BE STUPID. No, not even a Scalextric one.

Working at that rate is an indicator straight off that the guy isn't serious about what he does. It's just not maintainable.

I'm honestly sorry you got burned, but I'm not remotely surprised.

To those looking for commission work some simple lessons:
1) Get to know your commission guy. Well. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Shop around, follow up on people BEFORE you send them any money or any miniatures. There are a good few honest commission folk who work at minimum wage or below because they love the work or it fits with their lifestyle. See what their reputation is around - check Dakka, Warseer, B&C...

2) Don't worry about shipping / international work. The honest folks charge reasonable shipping, and it's a fraction of what you're paying for the work. Good quality work and good quality service are what you're looking for. Not someone 'local and convenient'. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. Edit: It's the service side that's more important. A good service will correct things you don't like, even if they think it's better. A *really* good service will have convinced you that what they like was actually your idea, and you'll never know it.

3) Talk the job through! A decent commission service will take the time to talk to you about the job in some detail, even if they don't take it. Get them to break down (roughly, these things are never exact) the time they'll spend on each miniature. If they can't / won't, you know they're not really thinking it through or aren't experienced enough to make the call. Either is bad business sense for them, and an indicator things may go tits up faster than a Broxtowe schoolgirl.

Edit: And that modelling photo story... fething genius.

winterdyne wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, but $400?! And that didn't worry you? That's basically working for nothing. The timescale he gave you is dodgy as hell too - 2 months to paint something like 5 Large Monsters and damn near 60 Infantry size, to various schemes and to match what was already done?

It does make me chuckle sometimes that people think commission paintwork (to a professional standard) can be done for that sort of money. Yeah mate, I'll sell you a Ferrari... 25 bucks... yeah, it's genuine, honest, would I lie to you? Just to make it clear I AM NOT SELLING YOU A FERRARI FOR $25. DON'T BE STUPID. No, not even a Scalextric one.

Working at that rate is an indicator straight off that the guy isn't serious about what he does. It's just not maintainable.

I'm honestly sorry you got burned, but I'm not remotely surprised.

To those looking for commission work some simple lessons:
1) Get to know your commission guy. Well. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Shop around, follow up on people BEFORE you send them any money or any miniatures. There are a good few honest commission folk who work at minimum wage or below because they love the work or it fits with their lifestyle. See what their reputation is around - check Dakka, Warseer, B&C...

2) Don't worry about shipping / international work. The honest folks charge reasonable shipping, and it's a fraction of what you're paying for the work. Good quality work and good quality service are what you're looking for. Not someone 'local and convenient'. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. Edit: It's the service side that's more important. A good service will correct things you don't like, even if they think it's better. A *really* good service will have convinced you that what they like was actually your idea, and you'll never know it.

3) Talk the job through! A decent commission service will take the time to talk to you about the job in some detail, even if they don't take it. Get them to break down (roughly, these things are never exact) the time they'll spend on each miniature. If they can't / won't, you know they're not really thinking it through or aren't experienced enough to make the call. Either is bad business sense for them, and an indicator things may go tits up faster than a Broxtowe schoolgirl.

Edit: And that modelling photo story... fething genius.

I totally agree,.

When someone deals with me, they get my name, full address, phone number, email, alternate email, etc. Communication is key.

Now that timeline he presented does seem realistic to me... though I get to do this full time, and naturally am a fast painter.

You're right, the hourly wage for this sucks. bad. But I have a thousand armies I'd like to bring to life... armies I'd never have to time or money to collect and/or play myself... breathing life into someone else's force is an exciting thing.

Another thing I never understood are those painting services that drybrush-n-go.. that offer lesser "tiers" of work. I just can't do that. When I do a commission, I paint it as if I was going to take it to a tournament myself... that army represents my passion for the hobby, I can't do anything less that something I'm proud of.

Though I'm not sure I could give a breakdown of time spent on each model... I'm usually multi-tasking... switching from vehicle to unit to character and back again, while stages dry on something, I'm painting something else, then come back to the unit.

Keep this in mind, felony ruins your life. This kid owes you money but to take away his right to vote, own a gun, ect.. Is too much.

battle ready studios, it is totally inappropriate to plug yourself (for 5 paragraphs) and advertise in someone's thread about a negative experience and how to resolve it.

The Grundel wrote:Keep this in mind, felony ruins your life. This kid owes you money but to take away his right to vote, own a gun, ect.. Is too much.

battle ready studios, it is totally inappropriate to plug yourself (for 5 paragraphs) and advertise in someone's thread about a negative experience and how to resolve it.

SO he should just let this kid get away with theft then? *rolleyes*

Battle Ready isn't advertizing at all, he's just stating his experience. Simmer down.