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daveNYC wrote:Isn't the Codex some umpteen thousand pages long though? That much material would indicate that it's more 'detailed instructions' than 'flexible guidelines'.

Actually, it suggests the exact opposite.

It has hundreds of pages on pretty much any tactical or strategic situation, meaning it has countless examples that well studied commanders can draw on for reference when they need to make spot decisions. After all, in GW's own words on the back of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines, they are described as the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters" and the fluff has consistently named them as one of the most successful. On any battlefield, being utterly predictable and devoid of initiative would get you killed, power armor or not. It stands to reason that the Ultramarines would be absolute masters of warfare; their captains and sergeants steeped in the wisdom of millenia of battle commanders. Adept at all facets of maneuver warfare. Really, the only place I feel that Codex Marines might lack, are some aspects of unconventional warfare, but that's not the realm of the Astartes anyway. They are shock troops, surgical strike specialists. And there's no way that you win in the kinds of battles Space Marines fight without understanding every aspect of warfare, and being able to out think and out maneuver your enemy with superior initiative.

That really is the key point about the Codex Astartes. It's a plot device. There's never been anything written about it in detail, and it's never actually been written. Depending on which hack BL or GW author is writing at the time, the Codex Astartes is either some kind of grandiose compilation like all the wisdom of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and any other military genius in history put together, or the most worthless, overly restrictive set of warmaking rules ever. In the end, like everything in 40K, you have to pick and choose what you believe because everything is contradicted. 40K has always had terrible fact checking and terrible continuity. I've chosen to believe what makes sense. And there's no way in hell that the Codex Astartes makes sense as some kind of inflexible set of rules for warfare. You'd really have to know nothing about warfare to believe that. It might have some areas of inflexibility (in the numerical compositions of the Chapters, and other mundane details), but nothing about battle survives contact with the enemy. If Space Marines had no ability to adapt and improvise, they'd never win anything other than the annual Tau "For the Greater Pin" Arm Wrestling competition.

The real problem with all of the mediocre Black Library fiction is that the Codex Astartes has become a macguffin for all Ultramarines stories. And yet not a single one of these writers is even remotely what you could consider a legitimate or knowledgeable military fiction writer. The perpetuation of the Codex Astartes as some kind of "If A, Then B" type instruction manual is only done by hack writers, and a readership dominated largely by gamers with no knowledge or concept of military strategy, history, or leadership. Not that I'm suggesting that makes you a bad person, or stupid, if you fall into that category because my own knowledge of astrophysics is pretty limited, lol. But, take with a grain of salt pretty much anything written about the Codex, because even Guilliman has been quoted as saying "My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield… I do not wish it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative."

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Isn't the Codex some umpteen thousand pages long though? That much material would indicate that it's more 'detailed instructions' than 'flexible guidelines'.

Actually, it suggests the exact opposite.

It has hundreds of pages on pretty much any tactical or strategic situation, meaning it has countless examples that well studied commanders can draw on for reference when they need to make spot decisions. After all, in GW's own words on the back of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines, they are described as the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters" and the fluff has consistently named them as one of the most successful. On any battlefield, being utterly predictable and devoid of initiative would get you killed, power armor or not. It stands to reason that the Ultramarines would be absolute masters of warfare; their captains and sergeants steeped in the wisdom of millenia of battle commanders. Adept at all facets of maneuver warfare. Really, the only place I feel that Codex Marines might lack, are some aspects of unconventional warfare, but that's not the realm of the Astartes anyway. They are shock troops, surgical strike specialists. And there's no way that you win in the kinds of battles Space Marines fight without understanding every aspect of warfare, and being able to out think and out maneuver your enemy with superior initiative.

That really is the key point about the Codex Astartes. It's a plot device. There's never been anything written about it in detail, and it's never actually been written. Depending on which hack BL or GW author is writing at the time, the Codex Astartes is either some kind of grandiose compilation like all the wisdom of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and any other military genius in history put together, or the most worthless, overly restrictive set of warmaking rules ever. In the end, like everything in 40K, you have to pick and choose what you believe because everything is contradicted. 40K has always had terrible fact checking and terrible continuity. I've chosen to believe what makes sense. And there's no way in hell that the Codex Astartes makes sense as some kind of inflexible set of rules for warfare. You'd really have to know nothing about warfare to believe that. It might have some areas of inflexibility (in the numerical compositions of the Chapters, and other mundane details), but nothing about battle survives contact with the enemy. If Space Marines had no ability to adapt and improvise, they'd never win anything other than the annual Tau "For the Greater Pin" Arm Wrestling competition.

The real problem with all of the mediocre Black Library fiction is that the Codex Astartes has become a macguffin for all Ultramarines stories. And yet not a single one of these writers is even remotely what you could consider a legitimate or knowledgeable military fiction writer. The perpetuation of the Codex Astartes as some kind of "If A, Then B" type instruction manual is only done by hack writers, and a readership dominated largely by gamers with no knowledge or concept of military strategy, history, or leadership. Not that I'm suggesting that makes you a bad person, or stupid, if you fall into that category because my own knowledge of astrophysics is pretty limited, lol. But, take with a grain of salt pretty much anything written about the Codex, because even Guilliman has been quoted as saying "My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield… I do not wish it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative."

Much of the bad rap about the Codex came from McNeill, who really doesn’t seem to like the Codex much at all, hence why he writes strict adherence as a bad thing. Others writers took it from there.

Basically McNeill introduced a problem that didn’t exist in the first place. Originally the Codex was a good tool and by following it closely the Ultramarines were empowered by it. The Second Edition explicitly made it into a bunch of tactical guidelines with various battle reports and commentaries. McNeill made it into some sort of step by step rulebook that must be followed in all situations regardless of changing tactical factors. No if/and/or buts.

McNeill also introduced the idea that Ultramarines can’t go outside the Codex. Previously the Ultramarines were just said to strictly adhere to the Codex Astartes. You can strictly adhere to something and still do other stuff as long as it doesn’t go against what you are adhering to. McNeill seems to have seen ''Strict adherance to doctrine'' and interpreted that as the doctrine itself as being strict.

Take for example this Chains of Command example.

Something clicked in Uriel's head and he stopped.
No, it was insane, utterly insane and suicidal. But it could work. He tried to remember a precedent in the Codex Astartes,but came up with nothing. Could it be done? A frag wouldn't do it and only the assault troops had been issued with kraks.He checked his grenade dispenser. He had one breaching charge left.
(...)
'The assault troops have krak grenades. If we can attach some to one of the melta charges on the bridge supports it could setof a chain reaction with the others!'
Idaeus considered the idea for a second then shrugged. 'It's not much of a plan, but what choice do we have?'
'None.' said Uriel bluntly. Idaeus nodded and hunkered down in the sandbags, snatching out his battered vox. Hurriedly, he explained Uriel's plan to the sergeant of the assault troopers, receiving confirmation as to its feasibility of execution.
Idaeus raised his head and locked his gaze with Uriel. 'You picked a hell of a time to start thinking outside the Codex,sergeant.'
'Better late than never, captain.'
It states that the Codex has nothing in dealing with improvised demolition devices. I find it very hard to believe that Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would never consider the possibility that troops might have to use improvised explosives. I find it hard to believe that the hundreds of military generals and thinkers who contributed to the Codex would have never brought that up.

It states that the Codex has nothing in dealing with improvised demolition devices. I find it very hard to believe that Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would never consider the possibility that troops might have to use improvised explosives. I find it hard to believe that the hundreds of military generals and thinkers who contributed to the Codex would have never brought that up.

Sadly enough, it isn't even just McNeill. The idea was probably initially posed by Graham Davey in Index Astartes where he described a battle between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines where because Alpharius knew the Codex, he could predict exactly what Guilliman would do, lol.

A bit ludicrous, to say the least.

All of the above have valid points. Dont forget that the BL writers are simply humans not superhumans (aka Primarchs) but I do agree that the representation of it is wrong because it gives a misconception of what the book does when in fact it is used differently.

As of Sarge's example, that battle seems not ludicrous but rather ridiculous.

Though I am pretty sure that Alpharius was surpised because he excpected for Guilliman to follow "standard" deployment but the guy adapted and overcame.

That is all

PS I dont even like Guilliman that much,too damn arrogant imho

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:People seem to think the Codex rolls along the lines of, "When encountering Traitor Marines on the second floor of the Woolworth's department store on Calth, you should send Scott to flank them with a flamer. When encountering Traitor Marines on the third floor of the Woolworth's department store on Calth, you should have Bill mimic a duck while Steve maps the layout."

It's not. It's much more, "When encountering entrenched infantry, here are some general guidelines."

It's unlikely to be nearly as specific as people think.

Dude...
Woolworths shut down last year.
I don't think they will be around 38,000 years in the future without some very creative business management skills...

they are back online.

Nom

Brother Coa wrote:Is there any possibility for say Calgar to update it.
10.000 years is a LONG time, they have new enemies and they have became very predictable in fighting.
Surely an update would be nice, is this possible at all or is it so sacred that it can't be modified?

HERESY!!!!!!!!!

Leonus Cohol wrote:The Codex Astartes is much like Sun Tzu's Art of War.
The Art of War's teachings are still valid aout 50000 years later.

Have you read the Art of War? It is a big book full of various truisms and highlighted obviousness. The allegations of it being a truly sublime manual for anything are greatly exaggerated by people who want to seem deep and/or smart.

The part of the Codex Astartes that chapters do or do not adhere to is A) the set-up of chapters only being 1000 men (several chapters tell Girlyman where to stick it on that count), B) how to organize squads (with varying levels of adherence), C)and methods of training. The other principles contained with in are likely a collection of truisms and warnings learned by other marine commander (possibly the hard way). If some smurf did something that didn't initially seem stupid but got his blue butt blasted back beyond the battlefield, Rowboat probably wrote down some sort of warning so future leader could say "don't do that, it's stupid". Also given the technological stagnation of the imperium, it is likely that most of what is written in it is still usable, if a little stale. You cannot imagine the immensity of the crap the Space Wolves don't give in regards to what any incarnation of Papa Smurf tells them to do. The Blood angels pay lip service to it, but if you look at all the jump packs and dreadnaughts they have, it's obvious they don't care in actuality. The Dark Angels follow it fairly closely. And the Black Templars... I don't even think they know what they're doing.

I'm sure it has been slightly updated over the years. It does state that the only Spacemarine to have more written about himself than Calgar, is Roboute himself. I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of articles concerning tactics and other subjects that Marneus has written, not just about his own exploits.