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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/05 06:07:48
Subject: Eldar Fire Dragons versus Wraithguard cost, Survivability, reliability? Poll
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Longtime Dakkanaut
New Zealand
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Most of the Eldar codex has been 'left by the wayside' in 5th as you put it. The current Eldar codex was basically a copy paste from the 3rd edition one (they added Harlies and that's about it). Until we get a new codex we are stuck trying to squeeze as much out of it as we can just to keep up with the 5th edition books.
Wraithguard are pretty terrible compared to Fire Dragons unfortunately. They both have single shot weapons which hit on 3+, however from then on the Dragons have the advantage. Wraithguard pen 33% of the time against any vehicle, Dragons have roughly 58% chance to roll more than an 6 which gets them a pen against AV14, putting them ahead there. They get even further in front because while the odds of getting a pen against a lower AV doesn't change for Wraithguard, Dragons scale up to over 90% chance of a pen against AV11. Against Stormraven and other Serpents the Dragons are equal at this step, the only vehicle in the game which the Wraithguard are superior against is the Blessed Hull Land Raider (which is incredibly rare).
At the damage step you realise how powerful having AP1 is, its arguably more powerful than the 2D6. It means half the Dragons shots will result in Wrecked or better, whereas the Wraithcannon still needs 5+. It also means that glances (which I ignored above because you don't aim to kill vehicles with glances and these are only 5 man units) can cause wrecked results.
So in terms of damage output the Wraithcannon is well behind against vehicles. Against infantry it is just barely ahead (since the ability to ID is situationally useful). The real problem is that the Dragons + Serpent cost more than a 1/3 less than the Wraithguard + Serpent does. For this you get an increase in survivability, but its pretty meaningless because it doesn't really do anything for you. After they have shot both units are going to be out in the open and very close to something which wants to hit them. Both units are dead if anything tougher than a squad of Fire Warriors gets into assault with them, the Wraithguard are dead slower, but that's hardly worth a heap of points. Even in a best case scenario where you lose a couple of Wraithguard to shooting and are able to fire again next turn all that its going to do is bring them up to the same level of overall damage output as Dragons.
If you are getting sick of your Dragons being assaulted and squashed after they have killed something then you can either a) use two Serpents at once and perform the V trick (basically stops them being assaulted because the vehicles block, while still having a small gap between the two to fire without giving cover) or b) use Harlies instead. Against competent players I was finding that they would assault the Serpent and clip the Dragons with 1-2 models, which ensures the Dragons don't die in a single round and they can't get shot. Harlies can bring 2 Fusion Pistols, which is still enough to kill something like a Rhino (Dragons are really overkill against light vehicles) and unlike both Dragons and Wraithguard are fully capable of winning combats. They are actually probably the most likely to be able to fire more than once, since if anything doesn't kill them in assault they can Hit and Run out to cause more damage. Getting them vehicles is the biggest issue, since you don't really want Falcons up close I find the best way is to buy Serpents for my Avengers, put them in the Falcons and have the Harlies get in first turn.
So in short, as a mobile tank hunting unit in a Serpent Wraithguard are much worse than Dragons. As large 10 man units on Foot/as troops they are at least usable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/05 14:31:34
Subject: Eldar Fire Dragons versus Wraithguard cost, Survivability, reliability? Poll
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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In a Mechdar list there shouldnt be anything left of whatever you just wrecked to kill your dragons. You use your entire force to eliminate a part of the enemy army entirely. The worst thing at that point might be a battle cannon shell but even from that based on positioning of your vehicles vs your squads you should atleast be able to claim cover saves.
Wraithguard as repeatedly mentioned are far too expensive. great at killing infantry and somewhat at killing vehicles but i would just go with dragons.
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"We bring only death and leave only carrion, it is a message even a human can understand." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/06 02:38:40
Subject: Re:Eldar Fire Dragons versus Wraithguard cost, Survivability, reliability? Poll
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Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch
In the Ring of Debris Around Uranus
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Powerguy : I do like how you have stated things.. I agree with you that I have started running a farseer with fortune and a 10man harlie squad that gets into a "loaner" serpent turn 1. It works great and gets them there. I have tried many tactics with my fire dragons... The problem I have is even if they eliminate the targets they are trying to kill, they usually get shot to hell from the rest of the enemies forces as most savy eldar opponent players are gunning for serpents. I suppose it is the nature of the beast. I agree with Alpha striking and V-deploy and always try to protect my troops with board model setup. But people talk on here like nothing else is going on on the battle field. Remember that Eldar are almost assuridly outnumbered, when you spend a lot of your points concentrating on one area, there is the rest of the enemies army ready to respond the next turn. I am not saying, that Alpha striking is not a good tactic, it is. I am just saying if an enemy wants something dead enouph, it will find a way to do it. The reason for my original post was to see if with the Wraithguard, would they survive longer and do more damage than fire dragons... I think all of these posts have been very thought provoking, which I hope the original post made all of you think about this critically. I agree after much deliberation and posts, that I still think dragons are the better choice, I am still planning on trying a squad in serpent of WG with Warlock and Farseer to see what they can do. Thanks again for all of your great posts. Cheers
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