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So thank you for looking at this thread and reading it. I am like the rest of you and with my lists, esp. my Mech lists I always run Fire Dragons. But many times, you lose them after you jump out and pop something. I have often pondered, could I swallow the point cost for a squad of 5 wraithguard and a warlock in a transport and use this as a longer lasting Tank, MC, and Terminator killers? I know the cost is phenominally more, however what if you stuck a warlock with singing spear and Conceal with them? Add in a farseer or one nearby that can grant fortune and you have a much more surviveable unit that will likely take out more than that one squad of Fire Dragons... Now when you do the number crunching is it worth the extra points? Now Fire Dragons are usually almost guarenteed to wreck a vehicle per shooting phase, but wraithguard's wraithcannon, will only pen on a roll of a 5 or 6, but with 5 wraithlords it is still likely, however they are not AP 1 unless you roll a 6 (this may only be for Toughness creatures - can't remember - will check sorry), so the chances of popping a tank drops for them, but if they last longer statistically will they kill more? I am not convinved, and may try it with a list just for fun and post how it does. But, I was wondering if anyone else had any experience with this or if this whole thing is just a pipe dream... I love the Fire Dragons, but would like something that will last longer than one turn of shooting.... Thoughts?????

I much prefer the squad of dragons for any of the roles they need to fill.They are under half the points and get the job done much more efficiently.

Unfortunately, I don't think the points paid for 5 Wraithguard/Warlock provides anything better than what Fire Dragons can do. At a minimum, you are spending 205 points (5 WG and Warlock). If you are willing to spend that many points on a more durable anti tank/monstrous creature killer, then why not take a full 10 Dragons and Exarch?

I agree and I see your point, but even if you have a squad of 10 FD and an Exarch, I still think it is pretty easy for a round of shooting to kill the whole squad off, where as a 5 man wraith with lock with Conceal will make that unit more likely to be alive next turn. Like I said I have not run a wraithguard unit in a serpent myself, just playing devils advocate.... Thanks to all who have voted and posted. I appreciate the input.

I've been thinking about this myself for a while, and ended up coming to the conclusion that FD's were the way to go. Reason being is WG's big weakness: CC. If they're close enough to fire, they're close enough to get assaulted. Will they survive the assault? Probably, T6 3+ is pretty boss, especially if they get a fortune from a farseer. Problem is, they aren't going to win combat either. 5 total attacks from the squad is terrible. Basically, if your opponent is smart they'll just tar pit the WG's, then you spent a lot more points for the WG than the FD's, and got (at best) around the same usage out of them.

Haven't tested this, so not at all going to stick by it. But that's where I eventually fell on the issue. While you could theoretically support them with a CC unit to prevent this....all our decent CC units are in the elites spot as well. So to make the unit resistant to getting bogged down, you'd have to blow another elite slot. So the real quesiton becomes, is your 1 5 man squad worth of WG going to be able to do 2 FD units worth of damage? I'm doubtful.

Thanks for the deep thought on this Dash... I think you are right about this as well. I have never played them and I want to on the next fun game I have just to see what they can do... If I backed them up with some Banshees or Harlies... But I agree, overall I think that they will not get their points value back and get tarpitted. It is just a though I have been pondering for a while..Cheers

Tar pitting may be what you want.

Think about it. A squad of FireDragons rolls up, blows up nasty creature/vehicle and then is obliterated.

A squad of Wraithguard roll up, blows up nasty creature and then gets assaulted.

In the first scenario, the Dragons just die, the opponent gets a Kill Point if applicable and you are down a unit.

In the second scenario, the Guard sucks a unit into combat, effectively tying it up for a good 2, maybe three turns. Twice the points but twice the mileage.

thedarksaint wrote:Tar pitting may be what you want.

Think about it. A squad of FireDragons rolls up, blows up nasty creature/vehicle and then is obliterated.

A squad of Wraithguard roll up, blows up nasty creature and then gets assaulted.

In the first scenario, the Dragons just die, the opponent gets a Kill Point if applicable and you are down a unit.

In the second scenario, the Guard sucks a unit into combat, effectively tying it up for a good 2, maybe three turns. Twice the points but twice the mileage.

That is a really good point. When I used to sun a foot list, I used to run a 10man wraithguard squad with lock - conceal with farseer usually eldrad. I usually had them backed up with a CC unit or the Avatar, but sometimes I wanted to tarpit a unit to deny them an objective or to stop them from going on a killing spree with the rest of my folks. Never thought about using those that way from a vehicle. Thanks for the post... Cheers

10 Wraithguard taken as troops is a brick of a unit. Add in a warlock, join your farseer to it ( usually Eldrad)..and you have a unit that can take and deal a lot of punishment. Afraid of CC? Have a unit of harlequins nearby. Fire dragons are nice, but work better in a Mech list. Wraithguard are geared more to a foot list. Both are great units, but serve different purposes for each army.

Thanks for your post. I agree for footdar, the wraith guard are a solid hard to move troop choice, but for mech.... I am interested to test them out. Cheers..

It depends on the role you want them to play. Wraithguard are Anvil while Fire Dragons are Hammer.

thedarksaint wrote:Tar pitting may be what you want.

Think about it. A squad of FireDragons rolls up, blows up nasty creature/vehicle and then is obliterated.

A squad of Wraithguard roll up, blows up nasty creature and then gets assaulted.

In the first scenario, the Dragons just die, the opponent gets a Kill Point if applicable and you are down a unit.

In the second scenario, the Guard sucks a unit into combat, effectively tying it up for a good 2, maybe three turns. Twice the points but twice the mileage.

However, the advantage to the Fire Dragons dieing in one round is that in your next turn, you get to shoot the unit that assaulted them.

MrTau wrote:It depends on the role you want them to play. Wraithguard are Anvil while Fire Dragons are Hammer.

I agree that Fire Dragons are a hammer, but a bit of a glass one....

In fact, WG has some uses, especially in a footslogging Iyanden force. Otherwise, I'd stay away from them. Even footsloggers with T6 will die.

This is great eveyone please share your ideas... Thanks...

CaptKaruthors wrote:10 Wraithguard taken as troops is a brick of a unit. Add in a warlock, join your farseer to it ( usually Eldrad)..and you have a unit that can take and deal a lot of punishment. Afraid of CC? Have a unit of harlequins nearby. Fire dragons are nice, but work better in a Mech list. Wraithguard are geared more to a foot list. Both are great units, but serve different purposes for each army.

This this this this this this this.

It totally depends on your army strategy. Wraithguard are an auto include in a footdar list, but in Mech lists they just dont work. A squad of 3 with a warlock in a wave serpent is almost as expensive as a 10 man scoring unit on foot.

But the question is, they are more expensive than dragons, but would they make their point value back in survivability and overall damage done throughout the battle.. or not just damage but tarpitting as well if you want to use them as such.

Or and here's a thought...you could make them even more expensive and add Yriel in the unit. Only a very large unit can effectively tarpit that.

Now it's not exactly competitive, but since you're already paying premium points, you might as well make the most of it. And you can always charge Yriel into something completely different, like a squad of Long Fangs, and omnomnom them. Just remember he's still T3, so against shooting he's not got a lot of defense outside of that squad of Wraithguard.

You definately make your points back with Wraithguard - when fortuned and given a conceal warlock, they are among the hardest things in the game to shift. Sure they may take a long time getting to where you need them to be, but they are resilient, and definately do the damage.

true he would help them in cc... I think they would really need to be fortuned to survive a while... So that would be really expensive say 4 WG, Warlock conceal, Farseer Fortune+/- Doom and SS, and Yriel. I would probably do pretty well as a vehicle and cc wrecking ball and in the beginning the ave t is 6 so that would help the seers and yriel.. Maybe we are on to something... but that would take all your HQ choices unless you were playing Appocalypse in which case it would not matter and I would run my 3 titans and 2 Superheavy tanks... ... Sorry went off on a tangeant..

Its definately viable - I run a 1750 Eldar list that has 30 Wraithguard in it. The only thing which has thrashed me in the past is a Venom Spam list. Other than that, i've won most of my games with them, purely because killing fortuned wraithguard is so difficult.

So do you run 2 farseers then - 1 Eldrad to be able to cast fortune on 3 squads? That would be pretty killer.. I have 30 WG and I have always wanted to run a 30 WG, 3 Wraithlord and 1 Wraithseer with Eldrad list and see how I would do. I really like the Wraithseer model, but I think the abilities and cost are kinda -- meh. Cheers.

The list I run is this:

Eldrad

10 X WG with Conceal Spiritseer + Singing Spear
10 X WG with Conceal Spiritseer + Singing Spear
10 X WG with Conceal Spiritseer + Singing Spear

7x Harlequins
6 x Harlequins

The harlequins have various upgrades which I don't have to hand right now, but basically the army is lethal at short range. When the unfortuned unit starts to get thinned out - I start fortuning it, that way I give my opponents a tough choice - do they try and finish them off, or start on the fresh unit? The harlequins are there to deal with Deathstar units or other nasty CCW units. A nasty combo is getting the harlequins to Hit and Run from a combat, leaving the unit behind to get wraithcannoned in the face

What are your troops? I don't see a lot of room for them at 1750...?

Wraithguard in a squad of 10 led by a spiritseer counts as a troops choice.

::doh:: lol, makes me feel like a noobz...

The Wraithguard, when 10 strong and led by a Spiritseer are a Troops choice. However, the original question was whether WG are worth replacing Fire Dragons. I don't believe they are. One squad of WG/Warlock is over double what 5 FD cost. Additionally, WG are only getting a penetrating hit on a vehicle (regardless of armor value) on a 5 or 6 and they are only AP2. AP1 is extremely important in 5th edition which is another big reason I wouldn't replace FD with WG.

Taking WG as a troop choice is an entirely different matter.

Sorry for getting off topic.

To try and get back to the original question, I still think WG are better, even in a smaller squad. True you don't have the AP1, but they're not going to die immediately after getting out of a wave serpent. Plus with the warlock there you can have some nifty combos.

I do not mind getting off subject a little.. I think that Wraithguard have been left by the wayside in 5th edition. I think they are a tough squad, but wish they were a little cheaper or for their points had an invulnerable save like a termi +5up invul.. that would justify the price a little better.

But again back to the point of why I started the post... I usually do not run WG in a vehicle, but Dragons... but as I have been contemplating it, I thought if they lasted longer, would they make their points back up.. As I have not fielded them in transports, I do not have first hand experience, so I welcome anyones input... I will try this unit on the next fun game that I have.

thedarksaint wrote:Tar pitting may be what you want.

Think about it. A squad of FireDragons rolls up, blows up nasty creature/vehicle and then is obliterated.

A squad of Wraithguard roll up, blows up nasty creature and then gets assaulted.

In the first scenario, the Dragons just die, the opponent gets a Kill Point if applicable and you are down a unit.

In the second scenario, the Guard sucks a unit into combat, effectively tying it up for a good 2, maybe three turns. Twice the points but twice the mileage.

While I absolutely agree with you that being able to tarpit a unit may be effective, it entirely depends on what unit it is that is getting tarpitted. My assumption is that (as it is your opponents choice) it will be a unit he doesn't care about (think a squad of grots or some such).

More to the point though, the points you save on having the FD's vs WG's will allow for more of what our codex does well: Str 6 spam. The way the cookie cutter mech lists (OP is talking about mech. All the points about Brickgaurd units in footdar are completely valid, but a little off topic) work is that we use our FD's to fulfill our anti heavy tank roles (which is usually reserved for heavy support slots in other armies), and our Heavy support/troops kill light armor/troops. Given the awesomeness that is the WS (very easy to take our amazing APC for granted), FD's handled carefully can almost be assured of dropping 6" next to AV13 and up and destroying it. WG just aren't as good at this job, and if the tank isn't dead before you get tarpitted you're pretty much done, as the rest of your army is most likely not equipped to handle armor of that magnitude.

Couple of OT points: Something I've been thinking about is SCannons/Star Engines/Stones on the FD's WS's and having outflanking War Walkers. Idea would be to flatout/star engine dragons into position turn 1, drop them to do their thing, then flat out to your outflanked WW's. From then on the WS's act as mobile cover for your WW's by not shooting (hence the SC's on the WS) just moving from in front of the WW in the move phase, then back with Star engines in the shooting phase. Very hypothetical, but maybe even have a farseer/eldrad in one of the WS's to keep fortune on the WW units. Like I said, no idea if it'd work or not, but something I've been kicking around.