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the main reason not to take sponsoons is that often they are not worth it or do not fit with your main weapon.

IMO the vanilla russ doesnt need any upgrades besides maby the hull lascannon (when vsing marines or meched up armies), but HB sponsoons are ok if you have points left over. always get plasma sponsoons for executioner, demolisher needs to go LC and Melta or just LC (depite what you think, HF on russes generaly suck since if they get to fire, your tank must be very very lucky).

exterminator should be 20-30 points cheaper than it is, punnisher needs Ap 4 or rending, nova cannon needs to be Ap 3, vanquisher needs a coaxial weapon or pask.

IMO, when GW wrote the 5th ed IG codex they just dumped a whole heap of FW stuff in it and didnt realy ballance it too well. That said, each tank has its niche (except the punnisher, its just bad) and tend to shine in that situation.

ie: nova cannons decimate Tau, Eldar and Ork armies since they generaly have <3+ armour saves, Exterminator shines against armies with lots of light vehicles, vanquisher shines in an armour rich environment like apocalypse (yay for coax re-rolls).

however, for a TAC list your looking at vanilla, Demolisher or executioners.

Maxstreel wrote:I may have missed this in an earlier post but why not take hb sponsors to put more dakka downrange? I can see plasma sponsors on an Executioner to get 5 plasma shots but I'm not sure why to leave them off of the rest of the variants. Can someone enlighten me?

It depends on the tank. most people see them as a waste of points. with the tank more than likely
moving 6", it won't be able to fire the weapons you purchased.

I personally like the Executioner(Plasma tank) with Plasma sponsons. I also give them to my Demolishers
at times. It gives them a 36" threat range.

On the Exterminator(AC Tank) i go with H Bolters and HB sponsons.

On the LRBT, HHB only most of the time. If i have the points i might throw HBolter sponsons.

I'm currently working on 2 LRBT/Exterminators that will have full weapon options. I really want to try out the
LRBT with Plasma sponsons.

When I played IG if I fielded LRBT's I ran a squadron 2xLRBT +HHB+HBS

In my 2000 point list, I have a basilisk for sheer intimidation and I then support it with 2 leman russ battle cannons with lascannons and plasma sponsons, and 2 leman russ exterminators with 3 heavy bolters. It's a blob/gunline mix so I don't know if that meshes with the vet-spam, but that combination just pours out firepower and requires real effort to shut down. It's an all comers list and I just can't get enough of my tanks. Vs hordes of less than 3+ saves 2 exterminators at 340 points are a steal, and the 2 kitted out battle cannon tanks always make back their value either in points destroyed or in forcing my opponant to alter their plans in fear of then. They've been so successful that if I could squeeze more in, I'd throw in at least one with a nova cannon. If you play against anyone who doen't have a 3+ save then the nova cannon is the best of the bunch, wounding almost every troop on 2+ and denying cover saves. I'm actualy trying to redo my next list to include #5 and 6 as my "assualt" tanks with the nova cannon and heavy flamers to really stick it to any dark eldar/tau troops hugging cover.

In my 2500 list, I have 2 LRBTs with lascannons and HB sponsons and 2 executioners with HBs to back up my ordinance battery of 2 Basilisk and a Colossus. Very much an alpha-strike list, still works fairly good, LRBTs usually work good first turn to pop transports, letting the executioners unload on the grouped up contents. Plus by having a squadron of 2, lets you play smoke shenanigans, and get cover for two turns while out in the open.

Shivan Reaper wrote:In my 2500 list, I have 2 LRBTs with lascannons and HB sponsons and 2 executioners with HBs to back up my ordinance battery of 2 Basilisk and a Colossus. Very much an alpha-strike list, still works fairly good, LRBTs usually work good first turn to pop transports, letting the executioners unload on the grouped up contents. Plus by having a squadron of 2, lets you play smoke shenanigans, and get cover for two turns while out in the open.

The reason this is kind of an alpha strike list, is because you have 46% of your points tied up in 7 vehicles that can only shoot at 3 targets. IG tanks are solid, but too much of something is also not a good idea.

Ran a trio of games yesterday against necrons, eldar, then gray knights. I had everything mech, but I ran one LRBT and one exterminator. The basic Russ was as effective as always, but this was my first run with an exterminator. I have to say, I'm definitely glad I went with one. It was hugely effective in all three games. In the first one it blew apart warriors and destroyers easily. Second game it was the most effective unit for downing eldar skimmers. And the last match it popped a rhino and a stormraven.

As much as I like the hydra for the double firepower, the Russ body on the autocannons is just so strong. In all three games it never suffered a single penetrate, despite numerous high strength shooting aimed its way.

Just Rock up with as many Deathstrikes as you can field.

Not a big fan of vanquishers. For 20 pts more you can give a standard leman a lascannon, which is a stronger weapon than what the vanquisher has that only suffers a 24 inch range penalty. Also use executioners w/ plasma sponsons to cause much hurt, as others have said.

The important thing to remember about the IG tanks is, in my mind at least, while they are very expensive compared to everything else, everything else is just straight up cheap. In 2000 points I can sink 875 points into tanks and still have 110 men; so many troops that they literally fill the deployment zone. My last game vs a decent of angels, their firepower was enough to wipe out both 4xmissile devastator squads in cover on turn one and because the tanks were deployed far enough away from each other the drop troops couldn't come in anywhere close to each other for mutual support, but the massive range of the guns meant that the marines were still vulnerable where ever they landed. Nothing strikes fear into a squad of marines landing in deap strike formation like 2x battlecannon and 4x plasma cannon shots. I can't wait to see what they do to an opposing army that has to move up-field instead of deapstriking in or using webway portals. The sheer firepower they can put out every turn, coupled with the amount of "boots" you can still field makes them alpha, beta, gamma and delta strikes. I can't wait to fight me some ork/tyranid hoards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you can completely destroy the three units you're shooting at every turn you fire, that seems like a very good/solid plan.

Necroshea wrote:Not a big fan of vanquishers. For 20 pts more you can give a standard leman a lascannon, which is a stronger weapon than what the vanquisher has that only suffers a 24 inch range penalty. Also use executioners w/ plasma sponsons to cause much hurt, as others have said.

Strength 8 +2D6 Armor Pen against a Strength 9 +D6 Armor Pen? Vanquishers are not a main staple by any means, but slotting one in amongst the Vanilla Russes, upgraded with a Las Cannon, can be a worthwhile investment. It essentially earns its points back by killing anything AV 14.

KplKeegan wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Not a big fan of vanquishers. For 20 pts more you can give a standard leman a lascannon, which is a stronger weapon than what the vanquisher has that only suffers a 24 inch range penalty. Also use executioners w/ plasma sponsons to cause much hurt, as others have said.

Strength 8 +2D6 Armor Pen against a Strength 9 +D6 Armor Pen? Vanquishers are not a main staple by any means, but slotting one in amongst the Vanilla Russes, upgraded with a Las Cannon, can be a worthwhile investment. It essentially earns its points back by killing anything AV 14.

Ah ha! Once again instructed on a codex I've had for over a year now. You have shamed me good sir.

Necroshea wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Not a big fan of vanquishers. For 20 pts more you can give a standard leman a lascannon, which is a stronger weapon than what the vanquisher has that only suffers a 24 inch range penalty. Also use executioners w/ plasma sponsons to cause much hurt, as others have said.

Strength 8 +2D6 Armor Pen against a Strength 9 +D6 Armor Pen? Vanquishers are not a main staple by any means, but slotting one in amongst the Vanilla Russes, upgraded with a Las Cannon, can be a worthwhile investment. It essentially earns its points back by killing anything AV 14.

Ah ha! Once again instructed on a codex I've had for over a year now. You have shamed me good sir.

No need to feel shamed. Learning new things can lead to greater discoveries .

some people say that because of technicality reasons (which i do not understand, and my friends usually dont care) you can only shoot one sponson at a target (something to do with firing cones)

The issue then, is that you are paying 20 pts for a single heavy bolter, effectively..

I use both at once, however, in friendly games, and they are okay. Usually only kill one or two marines though, so barely make back the 20 points. Against weaker horde armies though they usually get more kills

Two sponsons will rarely ever have LoS to the same target. It even describes it in the rule book, with pictures. Since you have to sight down the weapon in the sponson, and the body of the vehicle gets in the way, you can't fire to the right with the left sponson and vice versa. What you're doing is giving the side weapons a 360 degree firing arc.

It's definitely possible, but difficult to line up, unless your opponent likes to stretch his units out in a long conga line.

Executioner squad with plasma turrets and Creed for an HQ can be ridiculous when you pop up next to your friends old necron lord snd go "O hai there!" before blasting him to hell

Blacksails wrote:Yeah, vanquishers are subpar.

Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

actually that's incorrect, exterminators get double the shots of hydras despite having fewer barrels on the model. for balance reasons obviously.

the benefits of having two hydras as opposed to one exterminator
A: all your eggs aren't in one basket
B: you can target 2 diffrent models if you destroy one with your first hydra.
C: if you're oppents love skimmers he will have holey skimmers after your hydras are done with them.

Majsharan wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Yeah, vanquishers are subpar.

Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

actually that's incorrect, exterminators get double the shots of hydras despite having fewer barrels on the model. for balance reasons obviously.

the benefits of having two hydras as opposed to one exterminator
A: all your eggs aren't in one basket
B: you can target 2 diffrent models if you destroy one with your first hydra.
C: if you're oppents love skimmers he will have holey skimmers after your hydras are done with them.

You're also using up two heavy slots for that. Heavy slots are huge for Guard. Most people run two manticores with a pair of Hydras in a squadron, or just a single one. Exterminators are better when running three russes, as they can pop open a transport for the other tanks' pie plates. But overall, the Hydra is a better buy.

Blacksails wrote:

actually that's incorrect, exterminators get double the shots of hydras despite having fewer barrels on the model. for balance reasons obviously.

Not quite. An exterminator has heavy 4 twin linked. A hydra has two Heavy 2 Twin linked. Four shots from each one. Since a hydra is half the points, technically that's the one that gets double the firepower.

fotta wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

actually that's incorrect, exterminators get double the shots of hydras despite having fewer barrels on the model. for balance reasons obviously.

Not quite. An exterminator has heavy 4 twin linked. A hydra has two Heavy 2 Twin linked. Four shots from each one. Since a hydra is half the points, technically that's the one that gets double the firepower.

Again, unless they're moving. An exterminator can move combat speed and still pump out 4 AC shots (plus a hull weapon). A moving hydra only fires 2 AC shots max.

Yes, a hydra has range long enough to not need to move as much to acquire targets, but if your army is mobile, an exterminator can be a better match.

I've used both hydras (singly and in pairs) and Russ tanks, and the big difference I notice in mobile/mech armies is that anything that decides to shoot at a hydra will usually kill it, whereas my russes usually survive the entire game.

Just looked at the codex and it lists hydra as heavy 2. Doesn't that mean it only gets 2 shots from its main weapon?

Majsharan wrote:Just looked at the codex and it lists hydra as heavy 2. Doesn't that mean it only gets 2 shots from its main weapon?

Correct. But if you look under it's list of equipment, it has two of them.

The hydra autocannon is heavy 2

The hydra tank is equipped with 2 hydra autocannons. So 4 shots total from the 2 guns.

Vanquisher's are hit and miss?

What about pask as upgrade? He gives 3+ to hit and some other goodies, making the Vanquishes hit more often evil anti HQ and anti-armour tank.

Never tried it, but wonder why it hasnt been brought up.

akkados wrote:Vanquisher's are hit and miss?

What about pask as upgrade? He gives 3+ to hit and some other goodies, making the Vanquishes hit more often evil anti HQ and anti-armour tank.

Never tried it, but wonder why it hasnt been brought up.

Because you end up with a unit as expensive as a landraider but rear armour 10 ...

Would think its worth it if you can kill another land raider with it, but you might be right.

A lot of players looked at and tried the "Pasquisher" when the codex came out along with the Pask + Punisher. I think most players abandoned them when they didn't get great results.

IMO the reason why the vanquisher doesn't produce good results (with or without Pask) is that the gun is still only single-shot and AP2. Even if you get the hit, and the pen, and get past the opponent's cover or smoke save, you've still only earned the right to try to roll a 5 or 6 to kill a tank. Averaging 3 hits in a 6-turn game (4 hits with Pask) that means you'll kill maybe about one tank during the course of a typical game, or maybe two.

There are just so many more viable options for killing heavy armor. Medusas are generally better at long-range tankbusting because of AP1, and they're cheaper. Meltaguns are just always way better at killing land raiders specifically. If you really need to kill a land raider in turn 1 before it moves, there's always the option of 5 stormtroopers with 2 melta in a chimera. (If you have first turn, they scout move, then roll up turn one and burn the land raider before it gets to do anything.)

Since most of my guard experience has been more fireline style (inducted into witch hunters) I really can't say which is good for your specific force, but I will say that in my own experience that Battlecannon + hull lascannon + heavy bolter Sponsons is a great swiss army knife. Veterans are really good at tankhunting, and if you scout them you can take out whatever av14 monstrosity you want on turn 1, killing masses of lesser vehicles and infantry is more important for guard, and The basic russ can handle anything but monoliths and landraiders. The executioner plasma pump is a huge points sink and I've only seen it earn it's points back in apocalypse games, because any player with a brain will be sure to jam a melta in it's tail pipe so quick it will make your head spin.

So I'm trying to flush out the last points in my army, and I can't decide between tanks. So far I have a LRMBT, and an Exterminator, both of which have produced solid results. Now I'm looking at a third tank, but I'm unsure if I should double up on one of those, or pick up something heavier like a demolisher/exterminator.

As far as the rest of the list, fairly standard mech. Vendettas, chimeras, vets, and powerblob bubble wrap. I definitely want a third tank though.

I think you should consider getting the Demolisher kit. You can make the Demolisher, Punisher and Executioner out of it, and as long as you don't glue the main gun in place they're fully interchangeable. On the other hand, I often use two LRBTs (either as separate units along with a Demolisher or Executioner or in a squadron with my other heavy support spaces filled by a Demolisher or an Executioner and a Manticore) and it can be quite an effective combination.

What I'd really like to try out is a pair of either Demolishers or Executioners, kept as separate units to maximise their available targets, probably backed up by a Manticore (I try to use that as often as possible). Of course, that means i have to get another Demolisher kit...