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Okay, Im new to Imperial Guard, and Im planning on doing a bit of Vet spam, with a Leman Russ Squad to back up my Chimeras and Vets. But the tricky part for me is to figure out what Leman Russ to bring to the table. I mean.....I will no doubt kit 2 of the 3 as Vanquishers, just because the people where I play use alot of vehicles, and I know that even with meltas Im gonna need alot of vehicle knock down. So the hard part for me, is what Russ should I use alongside these two for mopping up the infantry. Consider also that the guys I play usually field alot of SM, Ork Mek, and CSM 1k sons armys. So would I be better using a Demolisher, an Executioner, or a Punisher?

Executioner with plasma sponsons makes my regular marine opponents cry.

Executioner is glory to play but nasty expensive.

Good mower is standard Russ with heavy bolters on front and sponsons.

To go super cheap, no sponsons.

Really cannot find fault with the standard turret load-out.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:I mean.....I will no doubt kit 2 of the 3 as Vanquishers, just because the people where I play use alot of vehicles

No, never Vanquishers. They are by far the worst Russ (followed closely by the Punisher).

should I use alongside these two for mopping up the infantry.

Standard Russ (no sponsons). Lascannon is optional.
Demolisher (no sponsons) with hull heavy flamer

Yeah, vanquishers are subpar.

Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

I like vanquishers, but they're not that effective I'll admit

Normal russes, either with no sponsoons, plasmas if you have the points to spare or HBs can be nasty

The executioner is glorious, pure ownage, just be ready to pay through the nose for it

Blacksails wrote:
Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Agreed with everything here.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

Nungunz wrote:

Blacksails wrote:
Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Agreed with everything here.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

The benefit the exterminators give is in lists that don't use vendettas, they provide very,very durable anti-transport that can also protect the weak side armor of chimeras. Hydras can't do that....hydras also can't effectively advance with the chimera wall.

Both can be good units...just in different ways.

Which is where the Exterminator can be useful, I'll agree. Also, the Hydra has 72" range to the Exterminator's 48", but that won't come into play all too often on most games. The Hydra also ignores skimmers going fast and turbo-boosting bikes cover saves which is handy dandy.

I have a soft spot for russes, so I tend to favour them and use them anyways, despite there being more competitive options available.

In terms of pure, unadulterated competitiveness, the Hydra is better than the Exterminator in most cases and lists, but the Exterminator is far from useless, particularly with other russes.

In short, the only three russes truly worth taking are three that have been mentioned; vanilla, demolisher, executioner. All should be kept cheap with minimal upgrades, exception being plasma sponsons on the executioner.

Vanquisher is unreliable with BS3; Punisher suffers from short range, no AP, and BS3; Eradicator is niche and will surprise MEQ players, but generally pales to the cheaper vanilla russ that offers greater versatility; and the Exterminator is workable as explained above.

Lascannons are a meh upgrade for a single BS3 shot. Heavy flamers on the hull for short range russes, heavy bolters for the rest. Sponsons are more of personal taste I find, but I prefer the theory of taking more vehicles than less, pimped out ones.

I use this exact tactic, melta/plasma vets backed up by a trio of russes. I like it, I take 2 battle tanks either with no sponsons or plasma cannon sponsons if i know i am playing marines even though they cost ALOT... for my third i take a demolisher with a heavy flamer front and multi melta sides if i have the points. I agree with the majority here, dont take vanquishers.

One thing is my russes are almost never firing because they seem to eat up about 80-90% of the heavy weapons fire at them, which keeps alot of fire off of my chimeras.

A little OT, but i recommend at least 1 Devil Dog, A melta cannon and i put on a multi melta. Both have 24 inch range melta. Its fast, armor 12 sides and front, so it is good at staying with your chimeras and keeping enemy vehicles at a distance and if they do come, have fun with the melta because either the cannon or the multi usually hit.

Overall, love the russes, just dont use vanquishers, i'd recommend the normal battle tank and a demolisher or executioner

i suspect that the more heavily armoured demolishers would be better, with hull lascannons for some anti tank while they move forward into position. The demolisher will pwn anything they come across, and are a great 'assault gun' for infantry support.

Demolishers, Punishers, Exterminators and Executioners are all ok.

The rest are pretty much garbage.

Don't run sponsons, and put a Heavy Flamer in the hull. That's pretty much it.

From what you fight, it sounds like an Exterminator is a good bet.

Blacksails wrote:Yeah, vanquishers are subpar.

Vanilla russes, demolishers, executioners, and depending on list and playstyle, the exterminator. I don't believe in sponsons myself, particularly heavy bolter sponsons. I could see plasma cannon sponsons on executioners, though.

Exterminator is outclassed by the Hydra, being double the cost for the same firepower. The russ is more durable and more mobile, so its a trade-off, but generally a subpar one.

This young man nailed it, IMHO!
I have been known to run plasm sponsons though. usually on my Demolisher/Executioner only.

Vanquisher's are hit and miss, so you shouldn't rely heavily on them in a Mech List.

Your best bet is the standard Battle Cannon, the Demolisher, or in the rare cases Executioner. The other options are pretty outclassed, although, the Eradicator's Nova Cannon would play hell with Necrons and Horde Armies moreso than the Battle Cannon, so giving yourself an option to slot one in against those armies is your ace in the hole.

The Exterminator gets outclassed by the Hydra. The Punisher is probably the worst option you can take given its cost compared to its function.

I personally don't think Vanquishers are that bad, however, I'd only field one with plenty of backup ranged anti-tank. A Guard gunline with a sprinkle of Autocannons and Missiles could have a Vanquisher in the back field w/ a hull las cannon, along with a couple standard Russes.

How do you think a squadron of two Executioners would work?

Marzillius wrote:How do you think a squadron of two Executioners would work?

Painfully. Including sponsons, you're looking at 10 plasma shots directed against a single squad...ouch.

:-) I just got a Executioner. 5 shots of plasma with BS 4 (The special character dude I forget his name) makes it all kinds of fun. Throw a las cannon on there, with BS 4 and crack shot, that's a strength 10 ap 1 lascannon.......Think about a landraider that just unloaded a bunch of guys, "shoot" at the land raider with the plasma first, hopefully get some templates on the squad that just unloaded, then finish it off with the las cannon. And with crack shot, the plasma is S8 so you still may get lucky in there and roll a 6 for glancing.

WEEEEEEEEE

(And I'm also rolling two heavy squads with "BRING IT DOWN" orders...)

Plasma is so much win on vehicles, throw in a bunch of fire support troops and some out flanking vets and it's dice-a-palooza.

Marzillius wrote:How do you think a squadron of two Executioners would work?

Expensively....and it makes them a very juicy target. Expect a lot of fire to head their way. Plus it's a bit overkill and honestly not really needed. One is usually more than enough.

sfshilo wrote::-) I just got a Executioner. 5 shots of plasma with BS 4 (The special character dude I forget his name) makes it all kinds of fun.

Meh, Pask doesn't do much for blast markers. You have 1 inch less on the scatter roll which can be nice, but isn't fantastic by any means. Crack shot is nice......but why are you shooting that many plasma cannons at vehicles. You should be murdering heavy infantry, MCs, and infantry with all those blasts.

Pask is too expensive for what he does and really is never a solid choice.

sfshilo, i'm not sure if that is allowed. ALL of the guns on the vehicle shoot at the same time, there is no 'delay' for which the lascannon can pop the landraider, and make the squad disembark just in time for the plasmacannons to hit.

Therefore, you would need an anti-tank unit to pop the landraider first, and THEN use the executioner on the squad.

I'll also say that squaded executioners are a bit overkill, unless you're packing in other HS slots

odorofdeath wrote:Demolishers, Punishers, Exterminators and Executioners are all ok.

The rest are pretty much garbage.

Punishers better than vanilla? Hmm first I've heard that

Since many opponents want to and WILL get in your face quickly I find demolishers are good as the extra range isn't missed and the added strength is nasty.


My son typically field two demolishers and a "Panquisher" against my orks and causes me fits...

After trying them all, I can't help but always come back to good ol' LRBTs and Demolishers. Point for point, no other variant can compare to their usefulness in TAC lists.

There are other heavies that compete with, and can often outshine. the venerable Russ, depending of your list/playstyle; however, if a Russ is what you want/need, then look to either LRBTs or Demolishers.

StormForged wrote:
The Exterminator gets outclassed by the Hydra.

Unless they're moving. When moving at combat speed, an exterminator gets the same number/accuracy of autocannon shots as a pair of hydras, plus another weapon for the same cost, and the exterminator is much more durable.

I know it's pretty common practice for IG players to leave extreme range weapons at the table edge while the rest of the army maneuvers forward (I do this myself with my LRMBTs). But there's something to be said for tanks--like demolishers--that advance with the chimera wall and provide covering fire. Exterminators do that too.

Also something I've been discovering about my battle cannon blasts is that, although they can theoretically hit a lot of marines with a single shot, usually one hits about 3-4, and the other scatters off. So with the cover saves that the targets have, they get about 2 marines per turn between the two of them. And then as the tiny MSU marine squad gets down to like 2 or 3 guys sitting on an objective across the table, they're increasingly hard to kill with a blast template.

IG is about incremental damage, but as the target unit gets smaller, some autocannons and heavy bolters would actually be more efficient at killing the last few guys than a big blast would.

I would only take 1 vanq if you are set on having one. If youre running vets im sure youve got plenty of mleta guns in your army.

that said, if theres any 2+ armor in your opponent (ie terminators), grabbing an executioner with maybe some plasma sponsons is awesome, but super expensive. Other than that, the standard russ is great against pretty much anything with a str 8, ap 3 pie plate. The demolisher is also great for some front line support, maybe with melta sponsons.

Take them as 3 separate heavy slots if you can, the trade off for squading them makes it not worth it.

kenshin620 wrote:I'll also say that squaded executioners are a bit overkill, unless you're packing in other HS slots

odorofdeath wrote:Demolishers, Punishers, Exterminators and Executioners are all ok.

The rest are pretty much garbage.

Punishers better than vanilla? Hmm first I've heard that

Sounds like ordoofdeath goes against infantry heavy armies alot.
The way I see it, vanilla is a jack of all trades,
vanquisher needs to be played like a tank destroyer *in cover and mobile
if its tank heavy enimies your fighting, might want the vanquisher mixed in with some vanilla russes. HB or HF sponsons are good if your enemy has tank hunting troops like your melta vets.

Again, it really depends a lot on your list. Saying a Melta Vet list, we assume atleast a decent number of Veteran Squads namely 3+.

My personal favorites are (in order of how I like them):

Executioner with Plasma Sponsons. Great all comer tank, even if you are not running against terminators, there are few things that can survive 5 well placed Plasma Cannon shots. Cover mitigates some of the dmg, but still a VERY solid tank.

Demolisher with a HF Hull. Cheap, durable potent. Its one draw back is its small range, and just a single shot, but St10 makes up for it. Great against infantry and vehicles both. Again a VERY solid tank.

Punisher with HB Hull. I know many people do not like it, but keep in mind that your opponent will also read these forums, read that it is not great and forget too shoot it. 23 shots always on the move is nothing to scoff at, even with BS 3, that is still 11 or 12 hits, 8-9 wounds on marines more on models T3. Make that many saves. It works the same way FRFSRF works, volume of fire. Often overlooked, but I have had great results with it.

Those are my three, and I pretty much never field any of the others.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

StormForged wrote:
The Exterminator gets outclassed by the Hydra.

Unless they're moving. When moving at combat speed, an exterminator gets the same number/accuracy of autocannon shots as a pair of hydras, plus another weapon for the same cost, and the exterminator is much more durable.

I know it's pretty common practice for IG players to leave extreme range weapons at the table edge while the rest of the army maneuvers forward (I do this myself with my LRMBTs). But there's something to be said for tanks--like demolishers--that advance with the chimera wall and provide covering fire. Exterminators do that too.

Also something I've been discovering about my battle cannon blasts is that, although they can theoretically hit a lot of marines with a single shot, usually one hits about 3-4, and the other scatters off. So with the cover saves that the targets have, they get about 2 marines per turn between the two of them. And then as the tiny MSU marine squad gets down to like 2 or 3 guys sitting on an objective across the table, they're increasingly hard to kill with a blast template.

IG is about incremental damage, but as the target unit gets smaller, some autocannons and heavy bolters would actually be more efficient at killing the last few guys than a big blast would.

this^

Exterminators can be very very nasty.

The main problem with the punisher is its lack of range with the main weapon. If it had 36" range along with its heavy bolters it would be a much more effective tank. If it could reach out and hit backfield units like long fangs, pathfinders, heavy weapon squads, it would be a very effective tank. It is best used against small units or monsterous creatures. The issue is that its range hampers its target selection and force it into much more vulnerable positions or reducing its possible targets. For its short range and high cost, the weapon needs a little improvement. I really think a 12" increase in range would bring it line with the other turret options and work even better with heavy bolters.

The vanquisher simply needs a point increase (20 ish)and to regain the ability to fire standard battle cannon rounds.

As it is, these two tanks aren't terrible, just not as effective as the other variants.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The main problem with the punisher is its lack of range with the main weapon. If it had 36" range along with its heavy bolters it would be a much more effective tank. If it could reach out and hit backfield units like long fangs, pathfinders, heavy weapon squads, it would be a very effective tank. It is best used against small units or monsterous creatures. The issue is that its range hampers its target selection and force it into much more vulnerable positions or reducing its possible targets. For its short range and high cost, the weapon needs a little improvement. I really think a 12" increase in range would bring it line with the other turret options and work even better with heavy bolters.

The vanquisher simply needs a point increase (20 ish)and to regain the ability to fire standard battle cannon rounds.

As it is, these two tanks aren't terrible, just not as effective as the other variants.

This, combined with the Str 5. of the Punisher. the Demolisher suffers from it's range, but makes up for it with a Str 10 pie plate.
not 20 cork gun shots....

a pie plate will often hit less, or if there is only 1 nasty critter, can only hit it once. But with 1 nasty critter, a punisher can hit it 10+ times. Forcing armour saves. I would go with the punisher in that case! OR if enemy is in cover, like a squad of dark eldar warriors, one demolisher cannon shell might hit 5 out of 10 of the warriors, and probably only kill 2-3 at most. The cover saves ruin high strength weapons, so you need ROF.

I may have missed this in an earlier post but why not take hb sponsors to put more dakka downrange? I can see plasma sponsors on an Executioner to get 5 plasma shots but I'm not sure why to leave them off of the rest of the variants. Can someone enlighten me?