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Hulksmash wrote:

But why would you have units of Court members? They are far more useful leading squads.

I wouldn't say that. You can make some pretty effective shooty or assaulty Court units (Staves of Light/Warscythes), and they can ride in an open-topped Ghost Ark. And it's super hard to put them down as every model is Everliving.

Additonally, you can have both anyway, nothing prohibits you doing a partial split.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong, as the RP rule still doesnt consider EL counters.

EL counter /= RP counter, so youre edit 1 is entirely irrelevant. Just because he has both rules doesnt matter, as no RP counter is ever placed with an EL model.

EL talks about RP rules, RP doesnt drag out and encompass EL rules.

Reanimation Protocols is the general rule providing the means for a damaged Necron model to get back up. Counters are used to keep track of damaged models waiting for the protocol to take affect. Ever-Living augments the RP rule to indicate allowing additional capabilities not available to models with just the RP rule. To distinguish between a model with Ever-Living and Reanimation Protocols and those with just Reanimation Protocol separate counters are used (color, style, size). The counters are used in the same way and represent similar things: models waiting to make their Reanimation Protocols roll.

However only RP counters are removed when the unit falls back, not EL counters. For it to remove EL counters as well it woul dhave to specifiy them, otherwise "counters" in the RP rules can only refer to RP counters

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong, as the RP rule still doesnt consider EL counters.

EL counter /= RP counter, so youre edit 1 is entirely irrelevant. Just because he has both rules doesnt matter, as no RP counter is ever placed with an EL model.

EL talks about RP rules, RP doesnt drag out and encompass EL rules.

Reanimation Protocols is the general rule providing the means for a damaged Necron model to get back up. Counters are used to keep track of damaged models waiting for the protocol to take affect. Ever-Living augments the RP rule to indicate allowing additional capabilities not available to models with just the RP rule. To distinguish between a model with Ever-Living and Reanimation Protocols and those with just Reanimation Protocol separate counters are used (color, style, size). The counters are used in the same way and represent similar things: models waiting to make their Reanimation Protocols roll.

Ever Living draws on one thing from Reanimation Protocols.

The rolling to stand back up. That's it. The needing of a 5+ (4+ with Res Orb). Otherwise, it's an entirely different rule. It goes to the distinction of differentiating the two rules in every other aspect. The EL counter is not an RP counter, and only the RP rule mentions removing counters governed by its rules, which are RP counters. The counters are used to represent similar things, but are not the same counters. At all. Ever.

By the way you are arguing it, Ever Living is exactly the same as Reanimation Protocols excepting the very rare occasion when a model with it is standing on their own. Which is clearly not the case, and I'm somewhat dumbfounded as to how you think it is.

Dytalus wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong, as the RP rule still doesnt consider EL counters.

EL counter /= RP counter, so youre edit 1 is entirely irrelevant. Just because he has both rules doesnt matter, as no RP counter is ever placed with an EL model.

EL talks about RP rules, RP doesnt drag out and encompass EL rules.

Reanimation Protocols is the general rule providing the means for a damaged Necron model to get back up. Counters are used to keep track of damaged models waiting for the protocol to take affect. Ever-Living augments the RP rule to indicate allowing additional capabilities not available to models with just the RP rule. To distinguish between a model with Ever-Living and Reanimation Protocols and those with just Reanimation Protocol separate counters are used (color, style, size). The counters are used in the same way and represent similar things: models waiting to make their Reanimation Protocols roll.

Ever Living draws on one thing from Reanimation Protocols.

The rolling to stand back up. That's it. The needing of a 5+ (4+ with Res Orb). Otherwise, it's an entirely different rule. It goes to the distinction of differentiating the two rules in every other aspect. The EL counter is not an RP counter, and only the RP rule mentions removing counters governed by its rules, which are RP counters. The counters are used to represent similar things, but are not the same counters. At all. Ever.

By the way you are arguing it, Ever Living is exactly the same as Reanimation Protocols excepting the very rare occasion when a model with it is standing on their own. Which is clearly not the case, and I'm somewhat dumbfounded as to how you think it is.

Hmmm... The EL directly references RP in how the base mechanics work. A model with EL also has RP. Both rules use counters to keep track of which models in the unit can make RP rolls. Yeah, it's a mystery how I was even for an instance thought the two were interrelated.

EL counter does not get removed and still gets to make its EL/RP roll

You also use counters to register wounds on multi wound models. Are the counters for Overlord wounds the same as EL and RP counters?

If not, then why are EL counters the same as RP counters?

RP is referenced only twice in the whole EL rule. One saying "roll for this counter, as you would a Reanimation Protocols counter." I think we can agree this means 5+ to stand back up, or 4+ with a Res Orb, right? The second time is referencing when placing it back with a unit in which case "in coherency with that unit as per the Reanimation Protocols rule". Ie, within 2" of a model in the unit.

Those are the only places RP is referenced, with the one exception being where it explicitly differentiates between Ever Living and RP counters. Where it says "Do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to this unit. Instead place an Ever Living counter where the model was removed from play." Nowhere is RP referenced for removal of the counter, in fact nothing is stated for removal of an EL counter at all. If you fail the roll, the counter is removed. Because EL = RP for certain things, does not mean EL = RP for all things, and it's a logical fallacy to arue otherwise.

By that logic, a motorbike is the same as a bicycle. The motorbike has two wheels and is used to move one person from a to b. A bicycle has two wheels, and is used to move one person from a to b. Therefore, a motorcycle is the same as a bicycle. (A bit of a stretch, but I suck at metaphors )

TGA - and RP does nothing for an EL model....

EL counters do NOT get removed, saying otherwise requires you to mangle the language more than norma lfor this forum

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and RP does nothing for an EL model....

EL counters do NOT get removed, saying otherwise requires you to mangle the language more than norma lfor this forum

Yes, the EL counters get removed and not it doesn't require me "to mange the language more than normal". I've shown how the counters are similar, nay, related.

Please show me were in the RP/EL rules other counters are described. In fact, where on page 29 of the Necron codex is there any discussion of "counters" beyond those mentioned in the RP/EL. There isn't any. The context of the RP rule is any/all counters, both RP AND EL. Context, people, context.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and RP does nothing for an EL model....

EL counters do NOT get removed, saying otherwise requires you to mangle the language more than norma lfor this forum

Yes, the EL counters get removed and not it doesn't require me "to mange the language more than normal". I've shown how the counters are similar, nay, related.

Please show me were in the RP/EL rules other counters are described. In fact, where on page 29 of the Necron codex is there any discussion of "counters" beyond those mentioned in the RP/EL. There isn't any. The context of the RP rule is any/all counters, both RP AND EL. Context, people, context.

EL counters aren't removed. The remove counters part is under the RP counters subheading, why would it refer to other counters as well? The whole point of EL is that models with it ALWAYS get a roll.

Here is your context.

yakface wrote:
The actual text from the battle report for anyone who doesn't have the mag is:

"...a bout of concentrated fire rom the Space Marines facing West but also supplemented by Vyper fire and even the Wailing Doom of the Avatar, gradually rid the battlefield of the Lychguard and even the Stormlord. But you don't kill the Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty that easily. Like all Necron characters, Imotekh has the Ever-living special rule, allowing him to self-repair even when the rest of his unit has been utterly destroyed. And so it was that the Stormlord rose from the ashes, minus his attendant Lychguard but ready to continue the fight."

They'll be Back!

Immortality has its perks. So too does being made of living metal. This manifests in two special rules: Ever-living and Reanimation Protocols. If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rules is removed from play, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of that phase, providing the model's unit has not been destroyed. Only by annihilating your squads completely (which against Necrons is never easy in the first place) can your opponent hope to emerge victorious. However, the more powerful a Necron is, the better his self-repair mechanisms, so a model with the Ever-living rule can always attempt a Reanimation Protocols roll!

Source

Unfortunately, the quote from yakface is fluff. And only sometimes does fluff=rules. As it is, as much as I would love to see necrons fall back and lose the EL counter, I agree that only RP counters are removed, and EL counters (and wound counters, etc) are not removed.

TGA - so the context of the rule Ressurection Protocols, which only talks about Resuurection Protocols ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE RULE section is *actually* RP and EL?

Before you even get to the rules for EL, which follow the RP rules, you believe truly that a rule solely talking about RP actually talks about RP and EL?

No, just no.

If the falling back rules were their own section, after both RP and EL, I would agree with you. they are not - they are rules specifically about RP and RP only, with EL defined as using ONLY 2 parts of it. The actual rules for EL only reference RP in two specific places, and falling back is not one of them.

Happyjew wrote:Unfortunately, the quote from yakface is fluff. And only sometimes does fluff=rules. As it is, as much as I would love to see necrons fall back and lose the EL counter, I agree that only RP counters are removed, and EL counters (and wound counters, etc) are not removed.

Er, it's not fluff. It's the guy who wrote the codex playing a game with the rules he wrote.

But yes, you can't stop an EL roll. All the restrictions under RP rules don't apply as has been pointed out, because EL rules don't reference them.

edit: After having thought it over, we don't actually have rules for what happens when a model becomes a casualty and was part of a unit where they all became casualties in the same phase. So to stop the game breaking, I'd suggest this part of the Ever-Living rules

"If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, within 3" of the counter. In either case, the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice). If the model was locked in close combat when it died, and the combat is ongoing, then it must immediately pile in. If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. Remove the counter from play.

be edited to read as

"If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty; or was part of a unit in which all models became casualties in the same phase, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, within 3" of the counter. The model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the model was locked in close combat when it died, and the combat is ongoing it must immediately pile in. If not, and the model is placed in coherency with with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it instead automatically joins one of those units (your choice). In the case of more than one successful roll for multiple Ever-Living models that were part of a unit in which all models became casualties in the same phase, they are returned as a unit; the returning unit must regain unit coherency as soon as possible per the 40k rulebook". These returning models must also be placed at least 1" away from enemy models, and if their unit was locked in close combat when they died, and the combat is ongoing, they must also immediately pile in. If any returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. Remove the counter(s) from play.

otherwise it's pretty much unplayable/unresolvable.

Errata please GW.

The ever living counter is not added to the necron unit. it says "if a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a reanimation protocols counter to ITS UNIT. INSTEAD place an ever-living counter where the MODEL WAS REMOVED FROM PLAY"

no token was ever added to that unit there for if any tokens are removed its only from that unit and thus the ever-living token stands alone

however oddly enough when you roll to come back the model would be placed back with the necrons that ran.


it is 9:12 am and i haven't slept so if i missed something go ahead and punish me for insolence U.U zZzZzzz