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Hello all,

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, I have seen similar discussions, but not this actual one:

Everliving - If model is attached to a unit and dies, place an everliving counter with the unit, model can reanimate.

Reanmation protocols - If the unit flees for whatever reason, remove all re-animation counters from the unit.

So my question is:

What happens if an Overlord is with a unit of necron warriors, the overlord is killed in combat, and the warriors subsequently flee?

According to the protocols rule, all counters are removed from the unit as soon as it flees, meaning the Lord's counter dissappears...and he doesn't get the chance to resurrect.

Any thoughts?

It would seem that the character is dead.

Indeed, that was the only logical conclusion that I could draw from this.

It just seemed at odds with the 'ever-living' rule.

I guess putting expensive characters with warriors is a no-go unless you can keep them out of combat.

I reckon it hinges on whether an Everliving counter is the same as a Reanimation counter. If it is, it's removed, character's dead. If it isn't, it's not removed, the warriors flee, the character stays on the floor and can try to get back up.

I imagine that this will be FAQ'd. Then again, I guess it will behoove players to not risk killing off the IC in a unit in an attempt to absorb a few wounds.

No. I think the character counts as a separate unit for the purposes of RP. He would still get his roll then.

Everliving token /= RP token

So the EL token stays where it is.

Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

If the fleeing necrons run off the board, do they take the Lord's Ever-living counter off with them?

No. The Counters always stay in place.

somerandomdude wrote:Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

However, the RP rule also states to remove ANY counters not just the RP counters.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

However, the RP rule also states to remove ANY counters not just the RP counters.

"Any counters" was under the RP rule. Ergo, it is referring to RP counters.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

However, the RP rule also states to remove ANY counters not just the RP counters.

"Any counters" was under the RP rule. Ergo, it is referring to RP counters.

Not really, any counters are just that. You can assume it refers to only RP but doing so would be incorrect as it says "any counters"

So you remove all wound counters? Awesome - time to make sure there are multi-wound models attached to/in units with RP.

Some other power is introduced that leaves a counter? Oh, sorry - only effects Necrons for one phase. Have fun with that!


Seriously - RP only removes RP counters.

"Any counters" are NOT Ever living counters. Context tells you this. It is short hand for "Any and all RP counters that have been dropped by this unit"

Arguing "any" to mean "anything that is a counter, including D&D terrain counters from Night spinners, wound counters, Ever living counters, morale check counters, etc" requires a gross misunderstanding of English sentence construction.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Any counters" are NOT Ever living counters. Context tells you this. It is short hand for "Any and all RP counters that have been dropped by this unit"

Arguing "any" to mean "anything that is a counter, including D&D terrain counters from Night spinners, wound counters, Ever living counters, morale check counters, etc" requires a gross misunderstanding of English sentence construction.

You're arguing context then proceed to argue a strawman by taking the term "counter" out of context. Brilliant!!!

EL states instead of placing a RP counter with an EL counter. At the end of the phase roll for this counter as you would the RP counter. The RP rule states: "...remove any counters from [the unit]". Both the EL and RP rules track damaged models within a unit by using counters. The context is clear, just as is the context for removing all counters from the unit at the end of the phase.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Any counters" are NOT Ever living counters. Context tells you this. It is short hand for "Any and all RP counters that have been dropped by this unit"

Arguing "any" to mean "anything that is a counter, including D&D terrain counters from Night spinners, wound counters, Ever living counters, morale check counters, etc" requires a gross misunderstanding of English sentence construction.

You're arguing context then proceed to argue a strawman by taking the term "counter" out of context. Brilliant!!!

EL states instead of placing a RP counter[i] with an EL [i]counter. At the end of the phase roll for this counter as you would the RP counter. The RP rule states: "...remove any counters from [the unit]". Both the EL and RP rules track damaged models within a unit by using counters. The context is clear, just as is the context for removing all counters from the unit at the end of the phase.

It says roll. Says nothing about removing them when fleeing.

TGA - sigh, yet again context is against you.

The RP rule does not have anything whatsoever to do with the EL rule.

You remove RP counters, not EL counters, as the RP rule is only talking about RP counters at this point. Apparently GW really DO need to spell everything out to the last detail for some people.

You do realise the phrase "counter" is used across 40k, right? The term isnt specific to RP. So no, if you are TRULY claiming that ANY counter is removed, as in "not just RP counters" , then you are claiming wound counters are removed, etc. That IS what you are claiming. Or, you realise they couldnt be bothered to keep writing "RP counters" and just thought people were intelligent enough to spot this.

That said, though... everliving counters dont move with their unit, so if the EL counter stays put when his unit is fleeing, unless the fleeing unit doesnt move very far the EL counter will be out of coherency with the fleeing unit, and thus dead still.

As for RP having nothing to do with EL, well EL does use quite a few of the RP rules. So where EL tells you to use RP rules, they do overlap.

Except it wont be dead, as the rules require it to be placed in coherency with the unit OR within 3" of the counter. You do not have to fulfill both.

Nos that is not true... Reread what happens when a el is removed as a casualty when joined to a unit.

Seriously, start quoting actual rules or stop positng.

FULL RULE:

if joined wrote:If the model has joined a unit ..... it must be returned to play .... in coherency with that unit as explain in Resurrection Protocols

So, IF joined to a unit you are required to be returned in coherency with a member of the unit the EL model joined. So, tha would be the falling back unit. Absolutely no requirement to be within X" of your counter.

There IS a requirement to be ithin 3" of your counter, but that only applies if you have NOT joined a unit.

So, over to you. I've proven the counter has absoluitely no bearing on your placement when joined to a unit, you need to prove it does. Some real rules for a change.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Any counters" are NOT Ever living counters. Context tells you this. It is short hand for "Any and all RP counters that have been dropped by this unit"

So...counters =/= counters? And then you put words in GW's mouth with the 'short hand' stuff?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FULL RULE:

if joined wrote:If the model has joined a unit ..... it must be returned to play .... in coherency with that unit as explain in Resurrection Protocols

"FULL RULE" Followed by a quote with ellipses signifying that sections have been cut out of the rule?


As much as I would like the rule to be of your interpretation, the fact that it says "Remove all counters" (emphasis mine) makes me lean the other way...

Brilliant, so this means you can remove wound counters as well? what about the counter used to signify that they have been hit by a Nightspinner?

No, context tells you an enormous amount here. Counters == RP counters.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

However, the RP rule also states to remove ANY counters not just the RP counters.

"Any counters" was under the RP rule. Ergo, it is referring to RP counters.

Not really, any counters are just that. You can assume it refers to only RP but doing so would be incorrect as it says "any counters"

Like many, I'm confused. When the RP rules were talking about the removal of "any" counters, aren't they talking about any RP counters? How can a description, in the RP rules explanation, of the way to remove RP counters have anything to do with the EL counters? Different counters for different rules. They're similar, but two different sets of rules for those two different types of abilities. Don't yell at me too much, I'm old and it's 5am. Not the best time to try and decipher this codex, but whaddya gonna do?

handric1138 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Exactly. The rules specifically state that Ever-living is different from Reanimation Protocols. One of those differences is the type of counter that is placed, and what those counters represent.

However, the RP rule also states to remove ANY counters not just the RP counters.

"Any counters" was under the RP rule. Ergo, it is referring to RP counters.

Not really, any counters are just that. You can assume it refers to only RP but doing so would be incorrect as it says "any counters"

Like many, I'm confused. When the RP rules were talking about the removal of "any" counters, aren't they talking about any RP counters? How can a description, in the RP rules explanation, of the way to remove RP counters have anything to do with the EL counters? Different counters for different rules. They're similar, but two different sets of rules for those two different types of abilities. Don't yell at me too much, I'm old and it's 5am. Not the best time to try and decipher this codex, but whaddya gonna do?

Yes. They were.
The mentioning of any counters was under the section on RP rules, and as such does not include EL counters.

I'm more curious as to how a unit of Everliving models works. Like 4 Crypteks. Say 2 die in CC and then the other 2 flee and are caught. How do you work out Everliving? Do you only roll for the 2 guys that died in CC? Do they come back in a single unit if you do this or as individuals? Or do you not roll anything?

Secondly what if an entire everliving squad is killed in CC (not run down) do you roll and pop up as a unit or as several units or do you stay down?

As an individual I have no questions as to how the Everliving rule works but in a unit full of them is where we get tripped up.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm more curious as to how a unit of Everliving models works. Like 4 Crypteks. Say 2 die in CC and then the other 2 flee and are caught. How do you work out Everliving? Do you only roll for the 2 guys that died in CC? Do they come back in a single unit if you do this or as individuals? Or do you not roll anything?

Secondly what if an entire everliving squad is killed in CC (not run down) do you roll and pop up as a unit or as several units or do you stay down?

As an individual I have no questions as to how the Everliving rule works but in a unit full of them is where we get tripped up.

Well, I would say that they do stand up.

But why would you have units of Court members? They are far more useful leading squads.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - sigh, yet again context is against you.
The RP rule does not have anything whatsoever to do with the EL rule.

Uh, the EL rule states the otherwise.

You do realise the phrase "counter" is used across 40k, right? The term isnt specific to RP. So no, if you are TRULY claiming that ANY counter is removed, as in "not just RP counters" , then you are claiming wound counters are removed, etc. That IS what you are claiming. Or, you realise they couldnt be bothered to keep writing "RP counters" and just thought people were intelligent enough to spot this.

Wrong, as the RP rule still doesnt consider EL counters.

EL counter /= RP counter, so youre edit 1 is entirely irrelevant. Just because he has both rules doesnt matter, as no RP counter is ever placed with an EL model.

EL talks about RP rules, RP doesnt drag out and encompass EL rules.