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And Move Through Cover adds a D6 when moving through difficult terrain (not whenever you make a difficult terrain test). Yet I've been told on this forum, models with S&P and MTC, allow you to always roll the extra D6 when moving.

Happyjew wrote:And Move Through Cover adds a D6 when moving through difficult terrain (not whenever you make a difficult terrain test). Yet I've been told on this forum, models with S&P and MTC, allow you to always roll the extra D6 when moving.

Ya, but MTC references the rolling you have to do for difficult terrain, which is what you do for S&P. Writhing worldscape "only" references terrain and does not say "when you roll for difficult terrain, it is also dangerous terrain."

It really needs an FAQ though because I can see both sides of the debate but I still fall on the side that it doesn't work and only "actual" [modeled] terrain is affected.

No FAQ is need unless to explain how these rules work together. An FAQ would only be needed if the Rules Writers at GW want to CHANGE how these rules work together.

As is, The Necron Powers Thermostave and Temporal Snares do not change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. Models have to roll to move through Open Ground AS IF they were moving in Difficult Terrain.

In Open Ground, Models with Move Through Cover would get to roll 3D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement in Difficult Terrain. Models with Slow and Purposeful wold Roll 2D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement through Difficult Terrain.

In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC and S&P would still roll 3D6 and 2D6 respectively, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground.

Writhing Worldscape only effects actual Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain pieces, not Open Ground being treated like Difficult Terrain for movement purposes.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:No FAQ is need unless to explain how these rules work together. An FAQ would only be needed if the Rules Writers at GW want to CHANGE how these rules work together.

As is, The Necron Powers Thermostave and Temporal Snares do not change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. Models have to roll to move through Open Ground AS IF they were moving in Difficult Terrain.

In Open Ground, Models with Move Through Cover would get to roll 3D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement in Difficult Terrain. Models with Slow and Purposeful wold Roll 2D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement through Difficult Terrain.

In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC and S&P would still roll 3D6 and 2D6 respectively, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground.

Writhing Worldscape only effects actual Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain pieces, not Open Ground being treated like Difficult Terrain for movement purposes.

? Ya, I get how MTC and Difficult terrain work. And what you're thinking of is an ERRATA to change the rules, an FAQ is to answer something that is confusing or easily interpreted multiple ways to very different degrees of effect.

Also, the tremorstave states "they treat open terrain as difficult terrain" so the wording there is not the best either, which is also one of the reasons I can see both sides of the debate.

Also, you would "not" roll 5d6 (no matter how you split it up) for MTC and S&P. You roll still only roll 3d6. Since models with S&P always count as if in difficult terrain then them "being" in difficult terrain is no different for them because they ALWAYS meet the criteria of rolling for difficult terrain. Otherwise, by your ruling, you would roll 2d6 twice if they were only S&P and in difficult terrain, and that's not correct either.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:No FAQ is need unless to explain how these rules work together. An FAQ would only be needed if the Rules Writers at GW want to CHANGE how these rules work together.

As is, The Necron Powers Thermostave and Temporal Snares do not change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. Models have to roll to move through Open Ground AS IF they were moving in Difficult Terrain.

In Open Ground, Models with Move Through Cover would get to roll 3D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement in Difficult Terrain. Models with Slow and Purposeful wold Roll 2D6 and take the highest, as that is how they would treat movement through Difficult Terrain.

In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC and S&P would still roll 3D6 and 2D6 respectively, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground.

Writhing Worldscape only effects actual Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain pieces, not Open Ground being treated like Difficult Terrain for movement purposes.

I disagree with you only on the tremorstave. The tremorstave really does make open terrain into difficult terrain.

@ Kevin: Sorry I did not write that sentence more clearly. In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC would still roll 3D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Models with S&P would still roll 2D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Is this more clear?

@ Kevin and Prometheus: As had been posted earlier in this discussion, here is the verbatim rule associated with Tremorstave:

NECRON CODEX: pg 85, Quake: "All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase."

Tremorstave DOES NOT change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. In order for Tremorstave to "make" Open Ground into Difficult Terrain, wouldn't it have to say "makes open ground Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase" and not "treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase"? That is a pretty big 40K difference in wording.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:@ Kevin: Sorry I did not write that sentence more clearly. In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC would still roll 3D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Models with S&P would still roll 2D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Is this more clear?

@ Kevin and Prometheus: As had been posted earlier in this discussion, here is the verbatim rule associated with Tremorstave:

NECRON CODEX: pg 85, Quake: "All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase."

Tremorstave DOES NOT change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. In order for Tremorstave to "make" Open Ground into Difficult Terrain, wouldn't it have to say "makes open ground Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase" and not "treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase"? That is a pretty big 40K difference in wording.

Ah, ok, I see what you meant then.

Also, I said from the beginning that I was on your side of the debate, I can just view the debate from both angles and could see it being ruled either way by a TO. In friendly games, I'd discuss it with my buddies before playing though honestly I probably wouldn't take this combo in friendly games because it's kind of a WAAC move. Slightly. Intended in the rules or not.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:@ Kevin: Sorry I did not write that sentence more clearly. In Difficult Terain, Models with MTC would still roll 3D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Models with S&P would still roll 2D6, but they would only take the lowest value if they were actually moving through Difficult Terrain and not open ground. Is this more clear?

@ Kevin and Prometheus: As had been posted earlier in this discussion, here is the verbatim rule associated with Tremorstave:

NECRON CODEX: pg 85, Quake: "All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase."

Tremorstave DOES NOT change Open Ground into Difficult Terrain. In order for Tremorstave to "make" Open Ground into Difficult Terrain, wouldn't it have to say "makes open ground Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase" and not "treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase"? That is a pretty big 40K difference in wording.

No, that's what I'm saying. "treating" it as difficult terrain means it really is difficult terrain, or at least has all the same effects difficult terrain does, including dangerous rolls for vehicles. It is, essentially, creating temporary difficult terrain. Whereas, by contrast, the temporal snare power only makes it so you that you move as if in difficult terrain.

@ Ghengis Jon:

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that "treat as" is synonymous with "counts as" in this case. Tremorstaves turn open ground into Difficult Terrain against the unit they hit in their next Movement Phase. Writhing Worldscape would then force a Dangerous Terrain Test on top of the Difficult Terrain Test.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the thunderfire cannon's subterranean burst and space wolf rune priest power Tempest's wrath say count as or treat as? By some of the logic I'm reading on this thread the space wold rune priest power Tempest's wrath will effectively do nothing.

RAI should be pretty damn obvious.

RAW is also pretty clear, unless people have a preconceived notion that the combination is too powerful and are willing to grasp at any straw to interpret the rules as they see fit. When it comes to the point where we are attempting to split the meaning of every word well beyond Clintonesque statements like "It depends on what the definition of the word is is" the debate should be over. All that's left is for an American to say that the meaning of a sentence has a completely different meaning in UK English than it does in American English, which completely changes what the definition of the word is is.

Yes it works, and it's easily countered. Full reserve everything, and go 2nd if you have the choice. Coming in piece mail against necrons isn't the end of the world. They have no way of screwing with your reserves, and they have crap for long ranged firepower. A lack of long ranged firepower means your first wave of reserves won't get shot at by the entire necron army, your 1st wave of reserves gets to enter the board after the necrons deploy (big tactical advantage), and your 1st wave of reserves gets to shoot before the necrons ever get a shot off (big tactical advantage). Necron's don't even have smoke launchers to obscure their vehicles before you arrive from reserve. It's not like your being forced to full reserve against an IG gunline that has an officer of the fleet.

radarbabyeater wrote:@ Ghengis Jon:

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that "treat as" is synonymous with "counts as" in this case. Tremorstaves turn open ground into Difficult Terrain against the unit they hit in their next Movement Phase. Writhing Worldscape would then force a Dangerous Terrain Test on top of the Difficult Terrain Test.

Did you even read what I wrote in this discussion? I have not disputed the equivocal terms "treat as" and "counts as". What I have talked about is the differences between the Necron Powers effecting a Unit or the Terrain. Tremorstave and Temporal Snares affect Units. Writhing Worldscape affects Terrain. That is a pretty big 40K distinction, wouldn't you say?

For tremor staves, they treat open terrain as difficult terrain. So for that unit, open terrain (a terrain type) works like difficult terrain. The c'tan makes difficult terrain also dangerous terrain.

Bikes, for example, "treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead." pg 53. So, saying the c'tan power doesnt do anything extra for tremor staves is the same as not doing anything extra for bikes.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote:@ Ghengis Jon:

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that "treat as" is synonymous with "counts as" in this case. Tremorstaves turn open ground into Difficult Terrain against the unit they hit in their next Movement Phase. Writhing Worldscape would then force a Dangerous Terrain Test on top of the Difficult Terrain Test.

Did you even read what I wrote in this discussion? I have not disputed the equivocal terms "treat as" and "counts as". What I have talked about is the differences between the Necron Powers effecting a Unit or the Terrain. Tremorstave and Temporal Snares affect Units. Writhing Worldscape affects Terrain. That is a pretty big 40K distinction, wouldn't you say?

What I, and several other people have been saying, is that temporal snares and tremorstaves do slightly different things to the affected units.

Temporal snares causes a a unit to move as if in difficult terrain. They are not actually in difficult terrain. Vehicles and bikes, etc. are not slowed, since they are not slowed by difficult terrain. No one who would be taking a dangerous terrain test in difficult terrain takes one, because they are not in terrain at all.

Tremorstaves make it so the affected unit treats "open terrain as difficult terrain". That means that if they're in open terrain, then they are essentially all of a sudden in difficult terrain. This will cause dangerous tests and such as normal, because they are, for all intents and purposes, in difficult terrain.

The former does not combo with Writhing Worldscape. The latter does.

Also don't think it's quite correct to say Writing worldscape affects terrain. This is somewhat semantics, but it seems to target all enemy units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the thunderfire cannon's subterranean burst and space wolf rune priest power Tempest's wrath say count as or treat as? By some of the logic I'm reading on this thread the space wold rune priest power Tempest's wrath will effectively do nothing.

RAI should be pretty damn obvious.

RAW is also pretty clear, unless people have a preconceived notion that the combination is too powerful and are willing to grasp at any straw to interpret the rules as they see fit. When it comes to the point where we are attempting to split the meaning of every word well beyond Clintonesque statements like "It depends on what the definition of the word is is" the debate should be over. All that's left is for an American to say that the meaning of a sentence has a completely different meaning in UK English than it does in American English, which completely changes what the definition of the word is is.

Yes it works, and it's easily countered. Full reserve everything, and go 2nd if you have the choice. Coming in piece mail against necrons isn't the end of the world. They have no way of screwing with your reserves, and they have crap for long ranged firepower. A lack of long ranged firepower means your first wave of reserves won't get shot at by the entire necron army, your 1st wave of reserves gets to enter the board after the necrons deploy (big tactical advantage), and your 1st wave of reserves gets to shoot before the necrons ever get a shot off (big tactical advantage). Necron's don't even have smoke launchers to obscure their vehicles before you arrive from reserve. It's not like your being forced to full reserve against an IG gunline that has an officer of the fleet.

If you're gonna say "it's pretty damn obvious" and then insult an opinion, I think you have to state what your own position is, because it's not obvious.

I'm assuming you think Worldscape combos with both effects, but I'm not sure. IN anycase, I think we stand on pretty solid ground that it does not, for the above reasons.