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Tremorstave

All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase.

Writhing Worldscape

Whilst the C'tan Shard is on the battlefield, all Difficult Terrain is also dangerous for the enemy. If the terrain is already dangerous, the Dangerous Terrain Test is failed on a 1 or 2.

Temporal Snares

During the first game turn, all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain, then a unit can move the lowest D6 result of their Difficult Terrain Test, rather than the highest.

Temporal Snares+Writhing Worldscape: So from my understanding, on the first game turn, if any enemy unit moves during the Movement Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they run in the Shooting Phase, they don't take Difficult Terrain Tests, but they do have to take a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they try to charge in the Assault Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test.

Yes? No?

Jump Infantry+Writhing Worldscape:
Jump Infantry count Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. So, they ignore the Difficult Terrain Test but must take a Dangerous Terrain Test (BRB, "However, if Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.") Since difficult terrain is dangerous for them, do they get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldscape, failing on a 1 or a 2?

Yes? No?

Skimmers+Writhing Worldscape:
Skimmers follow a similar rule set about beginning or ending movement in difficult terrain. Do Skimmers get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldsacpe? Failing on a 1 or a 2 as described above?

Yes? No?

Tremorstave+Writhing Worldscape:

Any enemy units being hit with a Tremorstave blast count open and clear terrain as being difficult terrain for their Movement Phase only. Writhing Worldscape also makes this count as being dangerous.

Yes? No?

radarbabyeater wrote:Tremorstave

Jump Infantry count Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. So, they ignore the Difficult Terrain Test but must take a Dangerous Terrain Test (BRB, "However, if Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.") Since difficult terrain is dangerous for them, do they get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldscape, failing on a 1 or a 2?

Yes? No?

Skimmers follow a similar rule set about beginning or ending movement in difficult terrain. Do Skimmers get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldsacpe? Failing on a 1 or a 2 as described above?

Yes? No?

Tremorstave+Writhing Worldscape:

Any enemy units being hit with a Tremorstave blast count open and clear terrain as being difficult terrain for their Movement Phase only. Writhing Worldscape also makes this count as being dangerous.

Yes? No?

Yes
Yes
Yes

Don't know about the others.

Thank you for the timely response.

I did think of another question.

In the instance of Temporal Snares+Writhing Worldscape, any unit that moves counts as starting their movement in difficult and dangerous terrain, right?

So, in the case of non-skimmer vehicles, if they became immobilized on a D6 result of a 1, they'd stay exactly where they are without moving?

In the case of skimmers, they'd become immobilized on a D6 result of a 1 or 2, staying exactly where they are without moving?

Yes, you get immobilsed as you try to leave.

I dont think temporal snares works with writhing worldscape. Writhing worldscape changes all the terrain (actual terrain) on the table to dangerous or 'more dangerous' terrain.

Counting as moving through difficult terrain has a specific meaning... roll dice to determine your speed, kind of like slow and purposeful. Just because you are moving slow, does not mean that the slow moving models moved through terrain.

Example... A unit of 5 marines is up against writing worldscape crons. There is a forest that the marines want to move into. They roll difficult terrain, and they fail to make it to the terrain. As they did not move through the dangerous terrain, they do not roll dangerous terrain tests.

Next turn, they move again, this time only 2 models move into the terrain. All 5 marines are slowed, but only the 2 that go into the dangerous terrain take tests.

For temporal snares, all movement on turn 1 will be slowed. However, no actual terrain is being moved through. The c'tan only modifies terrain, NOT difficult terrain tests. Thus, the damaging aspect of writhing worldscape will not be applied. Regular dangerous terrain tests for models that count moving in terrain as moving in dangerous terrain of course still apply, as those unit types have special rules.

On the other hand, tremor staves actually turn open terrain (a terrian type) into difficult terrain for a unit. Now, IMHO, the writhing worldscape applies, as when moving the unit, for that units movement, open terrain changes into difficult terrain, and difficult terrain also turns into dangerous terrain via the c'tan. This of course only applies for that unit's movement phase.

Guess we'll see where the FAQ puts this.

I am going to try this at my shop and see what others say. It seems pretty solid from a RAW stand point. Was it intended? not sure...

Dannygee wrote:I am going to try this at my shop and see what others say. It seems pretty solid from a RAW stand point. Was it intended? not sure...

Thanks for play testing! Let me know how it goes. I posted a 1850 list in the Army List section utilizing this strategy if you want to borrow it. Amend how you see fit.

I'm reasonably sure this gimmick was 100% intentional. But I suppose the FAQ will have the final say. Until then, though... bombs away.

Just keep in mind, this is a very expensive combo and its very much a one trick pony... I tried it last night and and I noticed the lack of other troops I could have fielded.

Sounds like your original post suggests that skimmers could become immobilized without moving at all, which is not the case.

puma713 wrote:Sounds like your original post suggests that skimmers could become immobilized without moving at all, which is not the case.

If they count as being in difficult terrain, thus starting their move in it, and they failed the Dangerous Terrain test, they would become immobilized, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cryage wrote:Just keep in mind, this is a very expensive combo and its very much a one trick pony... I tried it last night and and I noticed the lack of other troops I could have fielded.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410200.page

Here's the link to the tentative army list I built around the strategy until the FAQ clarifies the issues in question. Any C&C is most welcome.

I see all of these working.

From a tactics standpoint, it's kind of bad.
P1: "I have writhing worldscape and temporal snares"
P2: "I reserve my entire army"
P1: "...oh"

Shrike325 wrote:I see all of these working.

From a tactics standpoint, it's kind of bad.
P1: "I have writhing worldscape and temporal snares"
P2: "I reserve my entire army"
P1: "...oh"

This is true. But it also means you can deal with said army in a piece-meal fashion.

radarbabyeater wrote:

puma713 wrote:Sounds like your original post suggests that skimmers could become immobilized without moving at all, which is not the case.

If they count as being in difficult terrain, thus starting their move in it, and they failed the Dangerous Terrain test, they would become immobilized, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cryage wrote:Just keep in mind, this is a very expensive combo and its very much a one trick pony... I tried it last night and and I noticed the lack of other troops I could have fielded.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410200.page

Here's the link to the tentative army list I built around the strategy until the FAQ clarifies the issues in question. Any C&C is most welcome.

Starting in terrain, for vehicles, does not automatically mean a test is made. A dangerous terrain test for vehicles is ONLY made if they "enter, leave, or move through difficult terrain..."

So if the vehicle stays still, it takes no test.

However IF it tries to move it takes a terrain test, and would be immobilised (if it fails) before it actually moves any distance....

My question is, with this combo, what happens to daemons and drop pods?

Movement = difficult.
Difficult = dangerous.
Deep Strike = Movement.
Can't deep strike into dangerous.

I'm new to 40K, but it looks like this combo just says the whole table becomes a no-landing zone for those turn 1 deep strike effects.
What would happen if you had a drop pod?

This answer will determine if I buy a C'Tan, as I hate drop pods with a passion.

-Matt

You can DS into dangerous, it happens quite often. They take a Dangerous terrain test and move on about their business.

Deepstriking into Difficult or Dangerous terrain has the same result - a dangerous terrain test.
You're thinking of impassable terrain, which does indeed cause a mishap.

radarbabyeater wrote:

Dannygee wrote:I am going to try this at my shop and see what others say. It seems pretty solid from a RAW stand point. Was it intended? not sure...

Thanks for play testing! Let me know how it goes. I posted a 1850 list in the Army List section utilizing this strategy if you want to borrow it. Amend how you see fit.

I'm reasonably sure this gimmick was 100% intentional. But I suppose the FAQ will have the final say. Until then, though... bombs away.

This is what happend. Well I made a 1750 list with Divener, stormlord, ctan with worlder, and crypts with Tremorstaves. I wasnt the only one that day that had that list lol. We had about 8+ guys at the GW shop and we were talking about the combo and there was no arguments. Showed it to everyone and everyone said, "why not?" lol. So the first turn was night fight, Difficult/dangerous, and if tremorstaves hit a unit, it was dangerous, rather than difficult and if jump troops/skimmers was on the board, it sucked for the enemy.

Also my game was Dawn of War with guard and he moved all his stuff on the board on turn 1, it wasnt a good start for him.

Dannygee wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote:

Dannygee wrote:I am going to try this at my shop and see what others say. It seems pretty solid from a RAW stand point. Was it intended? not sure...

Thanks for play testing! Let me know how it goes. I posted a 1850 list in the Army List section utilizing this strategy if you want to borrow it. Amend how you see fit.

I'm reasonably sure this gimmick was 100% intentional. But I suppose the FAQ will have the final say. Until then, though... bombs away.

This is what happend. Well I made a 1750 list with Divener, stormlord, ctan with worlder, and crypts with Tremorstaves. I wasnt the only one that day that had that list lol. We had about 8+ guys at the GW shop and we were talking about the combo and there was no arguments. Showed it to everyone and everyone said, "why not?" lol. So the first turn was night fight, Difficult/dangerous, and if tremorstaves hit a unit, it was dangerous, rather than difficult and if jump troops/skimmers was on the board, it sucked for the enemy.

Also my game was Dawn of War with guard and he moved all his stuff on the board on turn 1, it wasnt a good start for him.

That sounds like SO much fun, I did the Divener and the Ctan in a 600 point game yesterday, I kept telling him I didn't want to win I was just trollin, and when I told him how it worked, he looked at me and said.... "your a dick"

Lord Magnus wrote:

Dannygee wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote:

Dannygee wrote:I am going to try this at my shop and see what others say. It seems pretty solid from a RAW stand point. Was it intended? not sure...

Thanks for play testing! Let me know how it goes. I posted a 1850 list in the Army List section utilizing this strategy if you want to borrow it. Amend how you see fit.

I'm reasonably sure this gimmick was 100% intentional. But I suppose the FAQ will have the final say. Until then, though... bombs away.

This is what happend. Well I made a 1750 list with Divener, stormlord, ctan with worlder, and crypts with Tremorstaves. I wasnt the only one that day that had that list lol. We had about 8+ guys at the GW shop and we were talking about the combo and there was no arguments. Showed it to everyone and everyone said, "why not?" lol. So the first turn was night fight, Difficult/dangerous, and if tremorstaves hit a unit, it was dangerous, rather than difficult and if jump troops/skimmers was on the board, it sucked for the enemy.

Also my game was Dawn of War with guard and he moved all his stuff on the board on turn 1, it wasnt a good start for him.

That sounds like SO much fun, I did the Divener and the Ctan in a 600 point game yesterday, I kept telling him I didn't want to win I was just trollin, and when I told him how it worked, he looked at me and said.... "your a dick"

yea lol. TBH, I was trying to make a "funny" list just to mess around b/c i knew the kid i was gonna play with. He didnt find it funny, but his dad and the rest of the store found it funny as hell. It accually works pretty well. Hitting his tanks with tremorstaves(dont care of the str wont hurt it, he had to test to move it now). One of his troops came onto the board, took 30% loss from danger test, then fell back and lost the unit. scarabz nomming Russ tanks. Cant wait to try it on Eldar. We have way too many mech list eldar in our shop


Also, I am adding this. From my experience with the subject, and the discussions from our GW with no arguments, I am saying YES to all the questions in the OP first post. Until the FAQ comes out ofcourse

Glad you guys like it. :3

I stated in my post above that I dont think writhing worldscape works with temporal snares, only the tremor staves. Snares seem to only cause tests, they dont actually change open terrain to dangerous.

Since the c'tan modifies terrain, not terrain checks, it would not affect temporal snares or other special rules like 'slow and purposeful' which have a similiar effect.

DevianID wrote:I stated in my post above that I dont think writhing worldscape works with temporal snares, only the tremor staves. Snares seem to only cause tests, they dont actually change open terrain to dangerous.

Since the c'tan modifies terrain, not terrain checks, it would not affect temporal snares or other special rules like 'slow and purposeful' which have a similiar effect.

Well you can surely make a house rule for your store about it not working. Just FYI theres 10+ people at my GW agree to YES(and 0 saying NO and this point), so thats how we will play it, and as I said before, until the FAQ comes out, we will continue to play it as is. Feel free to do what you wish

TBH, it does sound broken, and there is a good chance they will FAQ it, but we have seen werid things happen...
I could bring your point to our shop and see if it changes some minds? Thats what I try to do with the information here.

In order for Writhing Worldscape - Temporal Snares combo to work, wouldn't Temporal Snares have to say "all Terrain counts as Difficult Terrain" and not "count as moving through Difficult Terrain". That is a pretty big 40K difference in wording.

In order for Writhing Worldscape - Temporal Snares combo to work, wouldn't Temporal Snares have to say "all Terrain counts as Difficult Terrain" and not "count as moving through Difficult Terrain". That is a pretty big 40K difference in wording.

By the wording of Temporal Snares it would appear to not work with Writhing Worldscape, It would have to be worded like the Tremorstaves to function with it.

Below are all relevant texts for this.

Writhing Worldscape: All difficult terrain is also dangerous for the enemy.

Temporal Snares: All enemy units that move count as moving through difficult terrain.

Tremorstave: All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as difficult terrain.

just by the wording as Ghenghis Jon pointed out, temporal snares just counts as moving through difficult terrain, but is not actually in difficult terrain. Tremorstaves makes the opponent count all open ground as difficult terrain, and Writhing Worldscape appears to only affect actual difficult terrain by the wording.

however i can also see it being read the other way as well, so it is probably best to discuss with your opponent before hand about the rule interaction and just wait until the FAQ comes out.

radarbabyeater wrote:Tremorstave

All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase.

Writhing Worldscape

Whilst the C'tan Shard is on the battlefield, all Difficult Terrain is also dangerous for the enemy. If the terrain is already dangerous, the Dangerous Terrain Test is failed on a 1 or 2.

Temporal Snares

During the first game turn, all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain, then a unit can move the lowest D6 result of their Difficult Terrain Test, rather than the highest.

Temporal Snares+Writhing Worldscape: So from my understanding, on the first game turn, if any enemy unit moves during the Movement Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they run in the Shooting Phase, they don't take Difficult Terrain Tests, but they do have to take a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they try to charge in the Assault Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test.

Yes? No?

Jump Infantry+Writhing Worldscape:
Jump Infantry count Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. So, they ignore the Difficult Terrain Test but must take a Dangerous Terrain Test (BRB, "However, if Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.") Since difficult terrain is dangerous for them, do they get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldscape, failing on a 1 or a 2?

Yes? No?

Skimmers+Writhing Worldscape:
Skimmers follow a similar rule set about beginning or ending movement in difficult terrain. Do Skimmers get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldsacpe? Failing on a 1 or a 2 as described above?

Yes? No?

Tremorstave+Writhing Worldscape:

Any enemy units being hit with a Tremorstave blast count open and clear terrain as being difficult terrain for their Movement Phase only. Writhing Worldscape also makes this count as being dangerous.

Yes? No?

My buddy tried the exact same combo on me last night! It doesn't actually work, though, at least not completely.

As others have pointed out, it is important to realize that temporal snares only makes it so that you move as if you were going through difficult terrain, you are not actually in difficult terrain. This means Writhing Worldscape does not make it dangerous. It also means, by that it essentially doesn't affect vehicles, jump infantry, or bikes, as all these models move through difficult terrain their full distance. Because they are not actually moving though difficult terrain, they don't have to make a dangerous test.

On the other hand, The tremorstave works with writhing worldscape just fine, since it actually does essentially create temporary difficult terrain. Thus, anything hit by the termorstave with that C'tan on the board is putting itself in a lot of danger by moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dannygee wrote:

DevianID wrote:I stated in my post above that I dont think writhing worldscape works with temporal snares, only the tremor staves. Snares seem to only cause tests, they dont actually change open terrain to dangerous.

Since the c'tan modifies terrain, not terrain checks, it would not affect temporal snares or other special rules like 'slow and purposeful' which have a similiar effect.

Well you can surely make a house rule for your store about it not working. Just FYI theres 10+ people at my GW agree to YES(and 0 saying NO and this point), so thats how we will play it, and as I said before, until the FAQ comes out, we will continue to play it as is. Feel free to do what you wish

TBH, it does sound broken, and there is a good chance they will FAQ it, but we have seen werid things happen...
I could bring your point to our shop and see if it changes some minds? Thats what I try to do with the information here.

I suppose it is possible for 10+ people all to miss the difference between "moves as if in" and "counts as in" difficult terrain...............................perhaps a case of group think?

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote:Tremorstave

All enemy units hit by a weapon with the Quake type treat open ground as Difficult Terrain during their next Movement phase.

Writhing Worldscape

Whilst the C'tan Shard is on the battlefield, all Difficult Terrain is also dangerous for the enemy. If the terrain is already dangerous, the Dangerous Terrain Test is failed on a 1 or 2.

Temporal Snares

During the first game turn, all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain, then a unit can move the lowest D6 result of their Difficult Terrain Test, rather than the highest.

Temporal Snares+Writhing Worldscape: So from my understanding, on the first game turn, if any enemy unit moves during the Movement Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they run in the Shooting Phase, they don't take Difficult Terrain Tests, but they do have to take a Dangerous Terrain Test. If they try to charge in the Assault Phase, they take a Difficult Terrain Test and a Dangerous Terrain Test.

Yes? No?

Jump Infantry+Writhing Worldscape:
Jump Infantry count Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. So, they ignore the Difficult Terrain Test but must take a Dangerous Terrain Test (BRB, "However, if Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.") Since difficult terrain is dangerous for them, do they get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldscape, failing on a 1 or a 2?

Yes? No?

Skimmers+Writhing Worldscape:
Skimmers follow a similar rule set about beginning or ending movement in difficult terrain. Do Skimmers get doubly penalized by Writhing Worldsacpe? Failing on a 1 or a 2 as described above?

Yes? No?

Tremorstave+Writhing Worldscape:

Any enemy units being hit with a Tremorstave blast count open and clear terrain as being difficult terrain for their Movement Phase only. Writhing Worldscape also makes this count as being dangerous.

Yes? No?

My buddy tried the exact same combo on me last night! It doesn't actually work, though, at least not completely.

As others have pointed out, it is important to realize that temporal snares only makes it so that you move as if you were going through difficult terrain, you are not actually in difficult terrain. This means Writhing Worldscape does not make it dangerous. It also means, by that it essentially doesn't affect vehicles, jump infantry, or bikes, as all these models move through difficult terrain their full distance. Because they are not actually moving though difficult terrain, they don't have to make a dangerous test.

On the other hand, The tremorstave works with writhing worldscape just fine, since it actually does essentially create temporary difficult terrain. Thus, anything hit by the termorstave with that C'tan on the board is putting itself in a lot of danger by moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dannygee wrote:

DevianID wrote:I stated in my post above that I dont think writhing worldscape works with temporal snares, only the tremor staves. Snares seem to only cause tests, they dont actually change open terrain to dangerous.

Since the c'tan modifies terrain, not terrain checks, it would not affect temporal snares or other special rules like 'slow and purposeful' which have a similiar effect.

Well you can surely make a house rule for your store about it not working. Just FYI theres 10+ people at my GW agree to YES(and 0 saying NO and this point), so thats how we will play it, and as I said before, until the FAQ comes out, we will continue to play it as is. Feel free to do what you wish

TBH, it does sound broken, and there is a good chance they will FAQ it, but we have seen werid things happen...
I could bring your point to our shop and see if it changes some minds? Thats what I try to do with the information here.

I suppose it is possible for 10+ people all to miss the difference between "moves as if in" and "counts as in" difficult terrain...............................perhaps a case of group think?

I can bring this point up to them. Maybe we all think the same, but we are all GT level of players and are rule nazi's, so we will just see.

I'm new to 40k, so please be kind.

I think that the key here is that 'dangerous' and 'difficult' terrain dictate how something moves. Because of that, there isn't a distinction between 'moves as if in' and "counts as in". Once again, other games would have a distinction between these things... 40k at this moment doesn't seem to.

40k does. For instance, "slow and purposeful" moves as if through difficult terrain. It is not in terrain, though.