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I tried out a bit of mathhammer of wraiths vs. THSS termies. 5 vs 5, with wraiths having the charge (I think them being Jump Infantry makes this assumption reasonable) the wraiths end up eating the termies with only 2 losses. The Terminator's 3++ save doesn't faze the wraiths much, since their attacks are only rending. Both sides hit on +4 and wound on +2, but the wraiths have an extra attack base, and strike first, canceling out the termies slightly better save. If my math checks out, but it's consistent with what another poster got in one of the other necron threads.

Focused fire is probably the best bet, preferably high strength. Manticores come to mind, since high ap doesn't help anyway and wraiths are going to be liable to hide behind pretty heavy terrain.

Irdiumstern wrote:I tried out a bit of mathhammer of wraiths vs. THSS termies. 5 vs 5, with wraiths having the charge (I think them being Jump Infantry makes this assumption reasonable) the wraiths end up eating the termies with only 2 losses. The Terminator's 3++ save doesn't faze the wraiths much, since their attacks are only rending. Both sides hit on +4 and wound on +2, but the wraiths have an extra attack base, and strike first, canceling out the termies slightly better save. If my math checks out, but it's consistent with what another poster got in one of the other necron threads.

Focused fire is probably the best bet, preferably high strength. Manticores come to mind, since high ap doesn't help anyway and wraiths are going to be liable to hide behind pretty heavy terrain.

I appreciate you taking the time to do some mathhammer; never bothered with it myself beyond rolling dice. Sadly, being a stalwart player of all things Meq, I can't count a Manticore amongst my fearsome arsenal of vehicles..

Have a feeling I'll be taking out the Grey Knights for the next game however; in which case it just becomes a case of micro-managing very few very small units.. and besides, the GKs and Necrons should be roughly balanced, in theory, due to the proximity of their release date. Hypothetically of course.. we all know that Mat Ward will always make it so that the Boys-In-Blue-And-Equivalents come out on top, surely.

I haven't really looked at the new Grey Knights, what do they have in the Str 8 department? Without instakill on the wraiths, it's going the be even harder to take them down due to their 2 wounds. Psyrifleman dreads could work, I guess?

Irdiumstern wrote:I haven't really looked at the new Grey Knights, what do they have in the Str 8 department? Without instakill on the wraiths, it's going the be even harder to take them down due to their 2 wounds. Psyrifleman dreads could work, I guess?

Psybolt autocannon. Very very OP imo. They can take 2 TL autocannons on their dreads (and they can have like 6 of them in a army, 3 Vendread and 3 normal dreads), and give them each Psybolts for like 5pts each.

Also, what is this Psyrifleman that everyone is referring to?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I haven't really looked at the new Grey Knights, what do they have in the Str 8 department? Without instakill on the wraiths, it's going the be even harder to take them down due to their 2 wounds. Psyrifleman dreads could work, I guess?

Psybolt autocannon. Very very OP imo. They can take 2 TL autocannons on their dreads (and they can have like 6 of them in a army, 3 Vendread and 3 normal dreads), and give them each Psybolts for like 5pts each.

Also, what is this Psyrifleman that everyone is referring to?

Psyrifleman is exactly what you described. It's based off the term Rifleman, which is the unofficial term for a Space Marine Dreadnought with dual Twin-Linked Autocannons. With GK's, you slap on Psybolts and...



@CthuluIsSpy - The fact that virtually all units have Force Weapons and a good chance of getting off S5 with a successful Psychic Test means they have the ability to wound Wraiths on a 3+ in an attempt to use number of attacks (not their main strength) to take out a smaller group of Wraiths.. or stick with the 4+ to wound and hope for the best with a Force Weapon psychic test.. probably more reliable as only a single wounding hit would be required to take out both of a Wraith's wounds.. however that 3++ would still cause trouble here.. not to mention the fact that repair protocols would just be a kick in the teeth if it went off afterwards.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I haven't really looked at the new Grey Knights, what do they have in the Str 8 department? Without instakill on the wraiths, it's going the be even harder to take them down due to their 2 wounds. Psyrifleman dreads could work, I guess?

Psybolt autocannon. Very very OP imo. They can take 2 TL autocannons on their dreads (and they can have like 6 of them in a army, 3 Vendread and 3 normal dreads), and give them each Psybolts for like 5pts each.

Also, what is this Psyrifleman that everyone is referring to?

Psyrifleman is exactly what you described. It's based off the term Rifleman, which is the unofficial term for a Space Marine Dreadnought with dual Twin-Linked Autocannons. With GK's, you slap on Psybolts and...



@CthuluIsSpy - The fact that virtually all units have Force Weapons and a good chance of getting off S5 with a successful Psychic Test means they have the ability to wound Wraiths on a 3+ in an attempt to use number of attacks (not their main strength) to take out a smaller group of Wraiths.. or stick with the 4+ to wound and hope for the best with a Force Weapon psychic test.. probably more reliable as only a single wounding hit would be required to take out both of a Wraith's wounds.. however that 3++ would still cause trouble here.. not to mention the fact that repair protocols would just be a kick in the teeth if it went off afterwards.

Nope. Still would be effective. Wraiths dont get RP.
They do get lash whips.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I haven't really looked at the new Grey Knights, what do they have in the Str 8 department? Without instakill on the wraiths, it's going the be even harder to take them down due to their 2 wounds. Psyrifleman dreads could work, I guess?

Psybolt autocannon. Very very OP imo. They can take 2 TL autocannons on their dreads (and they can have like 6 of them in a army, 3 Vendread and 3 normal dreads), and give them each Psybolts for like 5pts each.

Also, what is this Psyrifleman that everyone is referring to?

Psyrifleman is exactly what you described. It's based off the term Rifleman, which is the unofficial term for a Space Marine Dreadnought with dual Twin-Linked Autocannons. With GK's, you slap on Psybolts and...



@CthuluIsSpy - The fact that virtually all units have Force Weapons and a good chance of getting off S5 with a successful Psychic Test means they have the ability to wound Wraiths on a 3+ in an attempt to use number of attacks (not their main strength) to take out a smaller group of Wraiths.. or stick with the 4+ to wound and hope for the best with a Force Weapon psychic test.. probably more reliable as only a single wounding hit would be required to take out both of a Wraith's wounds.. however that 3++ would still cause trouble here.. not to mention the fact that repair protocols would just be a kick in the teeth if it went off afterwards.

Nope. Still would be effective. Wraiths dont get RP.
They do get lash whips.

No RP..? Interesting...

The 'lash whips' of theirs are a real pain.. completely negates their only damn handicap of I2.. rending isn't particularly terrifying to PAGK most of the time.. although a few (un)lucky rolls could easily chop a squad down to size.. Not good. Then again, if there's one thing GKs of all shapes and sizes can do well; it's weight of shots.. Storm Bolters and Psycannons are a God send.

I remember when I played against the old Necron codex.. my mate just could not believe the sheer amount of Psydeath I was putting out.. I do believe he gave up (bad sportsmanship, I must say.. )

Still, a destroyer lord with Warscyth and Mindshackle joined to the wraiths would be nasty. That combo butchered a squad of GKSS that charged his Destroyer Bodyguard. The bodyguard got killed, but so did the GKSS and the inqui that was with them. Now imagine what would happen if his retinue consisted of guys that were good in CC.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Still, a destroyer lord with Warscyth and Mindshackle joined to the wraiths would be nasty. That combo butchered a squad of GKSS that charged his Destroyer Bodyguard. The bodyguard got killed, but so did the GKSS and the inqui that was with them. Now imagine what would happen if his retinue consisted of guys that were good in CC.

In the last game, I charged a Destroyer Lord with pretty much that wargear (2+/3++ as well I believe) and the Destroyers.. charged them with CSM Terminators and a Terminator Lord with an Undivided Daemon Weapon. Let's just say.. the Lord did not like the mindshackle scarabs. Sure, I won in the end.. but my Terminators were simply tied up far too long in a fight of attrition that whittled down their numbers.. the loss of the Lord was particularly bad.

I suppose that's it really; I need to focus on them one or two units at a time and wipe them out completely before moving on, rather than engaging as many units as possible as quickly as possible, as well as having units out in the open (even if they are preparing to charge in the next turn or two) because the Necrons do indeed have a helluva lot of firepower to boast.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Still, a destroyer lord with Warscyth and Mindshackle joined to the wraiths would be nasty. That combo butchered a squad of GKSS that charged his Destroyer Bodyguard. The bodyguard got killed, but so did the GKSS and the inqui that was with them. Now imagine what would happen if his retinue consisted of guys that were good in CC.

In the last game, I charged a Destroyer Lord with pretty much that wargear (2+/3++ as well I believe) and the Destroyers.. charged them with CSM Terminators and a Terminator Lord with an Undivided Daemon Weapon. Let's just say.. the Lord did not like the mindshackle scarabs. Sure, I won in the end.. but my Terminators were simply tied up far too long in a fight of attrition that whittled down their numbers.. the loss of the Lord was particularly bad.

I suppose that's it really; I need to focus on them one or two units at a time and wipe them out completely before moving on, rather than engaging as many units as possible as quickly as possible, as well as having units out in the open (even if they are preparing to charge in the next turn or two) because the Necrons do indeed have a helluva lot of firepower to boast.

I wish that were possible .

D. Lords can't take invuls. At least not until the FAQ maybe. He can take the 2+ but not the 3++.

But yes, with necrons you have to wipe all of them out at one go. Otherwise they will just keep coming.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:D. Lords can't take invuls. At least not until the FAQ maybe. He can take the 2+ but not the 3++.

This means my Lord would've stomped that Destroyer Lord.. ah well, live and learn.

My experience with necrons, both new and old, is about opportunity cost, and being the one who determines the flow of the battle. Necrons armies can be predictable even with the first look at the army. Imagine how your opponent will use what he has against you, i.e. his PLAN:
and...
Step 1: sh*t on that plan.

The first step for me is usually to disable or disrupt their ability to attack at long ranges, forcing them to come to you, and prolonging the lifespan of your mech. With old necrons, this usually meant just killing destroyers and the like. With new necrons, its a similar concept, just with the addition of transports, which should be a 1st priority with nearly every army:

Step 2: limit his options by careful selection of target priority

DROP his transports ASAP. The longer you have to shoot befor he gets in range, the better. Beware of IC's. Especially the new ones. These guys bring some damnable rules to the table, as well as pretty nasty combat prowess. Monoliths: REALLY ask yourself, does the damage it is likely to cause necessitate the volumes of firepower you'll need to dedicate to take it down?
p.s. theyre not cheap-- what could you kill instead, to better effect?

Step 3: as an ork would say, "fight der shooty stuff, an shoot der fighty stuff". Their dedicated CC units are nothing to shrug off, unless you're bringing something nastier to bear on them, so they should never get to CC on their own terms if you can help it. Their dedicated firing units, particularly long range, should be killed or at least remain out of LOS when possible.

Ultimately, the strategy is simple. DO what your opponent is NOT good at, so that they have no choice but to do what you want them to do. cripple him. You MUST understand your enemy.

Thankfully he has none of the new transports and likely never will do.. he despises them.

So, long range him to death? Not terribly hard in itself.. the problem is simply the limited amounts of long-range firepower Meq can muster.. especially GKs. Psyflemen, yes, they're good, but otherwise there really isn't much.. other than a Tech Marine with the wargear that allows orbital bombardments and the odd land raider.

Otherwise though, sound advice. I'll keep it in mind, cheers.

So, long range him to death? Not terribly hard in itself.. the problem is simply the limited amounts of long-range firepower Meq can muster.. especially GKs. Psyflemen, yes, they're good, but otherwise there really isn't much.. other than a Tech Marine with the wargear that allows orbital bombardments and the odd land raider.

I have a 6 dreadnaught 4 psybacks and a chimera (multi-lazor! ya I know, but just re-read a blood angel book and that thing is like everywhere) with plasma cannon servitors cotez list that would like to challenge that (almost everything is 48-36' and almost all can fire on the move so effectively 54-42' cept the servitors - still debating if cotez's rule would let them shoot at things with "I've been expecting you" if the tank moved but not sure on ruling since it's an out of sequence attack)

also, for the crazy fun builds, there's also the kazamov + deep striking justicare thawn /dreadknight suicide list for fun orbital bombardments!

sudojoe wrote:

So, long range him to death? Not terribly hard in itself.. the problem is simply the limited amounts of long-range firepower Meq can muster.. especially GKs. Psyflemen, yes, they're good, but otherwise there really isn't much.. other than a Tech Marine with the wargear that allows orbital bombardments and the odd land raider.

I have a 6 dreadnaught 4 psybacks and a chimera (multi-lazor! ya I know, but just re-read a blood angel book and that thing is like everywhere) with plasma cannon servitors cotez list that would like to challenge that (almost everything is 48-36' and almost all can fire on the move so effectively 54-42' cept the servitors - still debating if cotez's rule would let them shoot at things with "I've been expecting you" if the tank moved but not sure on ruling since it's an out of sequence attack)

also, for the crazy fun builds, there's also the kazamov + deep striking justicare thawn /dreadknight suicide list for fun orbital bombardments!

Imotekh the Storm Lord sneers at you long range. He is (and has) "Lord of the Storm" which starts the game with night fighting, which can continue each game turn //edit 1// if you manage to roll over the turn number ... oh and every enemy unit on the battle field take a D6 Str8 AP5 hit (on side armour) //edit 2// on a 6's while it continues. Now I know what your thinking, I'll start my army in reserve to avoid this ... which is why I'd also take some Flayed ones to block off the table edge.

Rough cost is about 433pts to cover 48" and it will have people calling you cheap. But more to the point it also lets a necron player get within range.

Tri wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

So, long range him to death? Not terribly hard in itself.. the problem is simply the limited amounts of long-range firepower Meq can muster.. especially GKs. Psyflemen, yes, they're good, but otherwise there really isn't much.. other than a Tech Marine with the wargear that allows orbital bombardments and the odd land raider.

I have a 6 dreadnaught 4 psybacks and a chimera (multi-lazor! ya I know, but just re-read a blood angel book and that thing is like everywhere) with plasma cannon servitors cotez list that would like to challenge that (almost everything is 48-36' and almost all can fire on the move so effectively 54-42' cept the servitors - still debating if cotez's rule would let them shoot at things with "I've been expecting you" if the tank moved but not sure on ruling since it's an out of sequence attack)

also, for the crazy fun builds, there's also the kazamov + deep striking justicare thawn /dreadknight suicide list for fun orbital bombardments!

Imotekh the Storm Lord sneers at you long range. He is (and has) "Lord of the Storm" which starts the game with night fighting, which can continue each game turn on a 4+ ... oh and every enemy unit on the battle field take a D6 Str8 AP5 hit (on side armour) while it continues. Now I know what your thinking, I'll start my army in reserve to avoid this ... which is why I'd also take some Flayed ones to block off the table edge.

Rough cost is about 433pts to cover 48" and it will have people calling you cheap. But more to the point it also lets a necron player get within range.

You are a little off about the Stormlords abilities. First off, he has to roll higher than the game turn to continue, not at 4+. Second, you have to roll a "Six" on the unit you rolled for, to hit them with lightning strikes.

Sasori wrote:You are a little off about the Stormlords abilities. First off, he has to roll higher than the game turn to continue, not at 4+. Second, you have to roll a "Six" on the unit you rolled for, to hit them with lightning strikes.

... Damn you're right knew i should have double checked. I'll have to change tactics slightly but you're still almost guaranteed a 2-3 turns of night fighting and everything may be still be hit (while only a 1/6 as good as i thought it was) is still a great ability

Tri wrote:

Sasori wrote:You are a little off about the Stormlords abilities. First off, he has to roll higher than the game turn to continue, not at 4+. Second, you have to roll a "Six" on the unit you rolled for, to hit them with lightning strikes.

... Damn you're right knew i should have double checked. I'll have to change tactics slightly but you're still almost guaranteed a 2-3 turns of night fighting and everything may be still be hit (while only a 1/6 as good as i thought it was) is still a great ability

Oh no doubt, it's one of the best abilities in the game for sure. Get some lucky sixes, and you can cripple your enemy before he even has a chance to do anything. Couple this with his Seize on a 4+, it's pretty excellent.

Irdiumstern wrote:I tried out a bit of mathhammer of wraiths vs. THSS termies. 5 vs 5, with wraiths having the charge (I think them being Jump Infantry makes this assumption reasonable) the wraiths end up eating the termies with only 2 losses. The Terminator's 3++ save doesn't faze the wraiths much, since their attacks are only rending. Both sides hit on +4 and wound on +2, but the wraiths have an extra attack base, and strike first, canceling out the termies slightly better save. If my math checks out, but it's consistent with what another poster got in one of the other necron threads.

Just to confirm that--

Wraiths get 4 attacks on charge each, so in a 5 v 5 the Wraiths get 20 attacks, 10 hits, 10/6 rends (~1 rend kill), and 40/6 normal wounds (slightly more than one normal kill). In return, they take 6 return attacks, 3 hits, 15/6 wounds, and thus lose ~1 model. Drawn combat.

In the next round of assault, the remaining 4Wraiths get 3 attacks each, so 12 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend (1/3 of a kill), 4 normal wounds (4/6 of a kill), call it one kill total. The remaining 2 Terminators get 4 attacks, 2 hits, 10/6 wounds, maybe kill 1 Wraith-- but that's not guaranteed, and even if they do they'll only win combat by 1, which won't do anything.

The remaining 3 Wraiths will likely pick off another Terminator, maybe he gets another Wraith, but he'll die to the remaining 2 even so.


So yeah, Wraiths (assuming charge) have an advantage over TH/SS Terminators with average rolls. That being said, it's sort of a swingy fight thanks to the 3++ saves on both sides-- if one player "rolls hot" they can turn things around pretty quickly. For this reason, I would not necessarily seek out TH/SS Termies as targets for Wraiths, but if strictly necessary I wouldn't hesitate to charge them. One important note is to avoid charging Wraiths into TH/SS Terminators if your opponent has a Librarian with Null Zone nearby, as this can change that fight quite substantially.

Yes...but most crons players won't fight the TH/SS termies on even terms. They will more often then not shoot the crap out of them with lances, and then charge.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes...but most crons players won't fight the TH/SS termies on even terms. They will more often then not shoot the crap out of them with lances, and then charge.

A good point. If anything what this shows is that-- while it's possible for Wraiths to take on TH/SS Terminators and win-- softening them up first will yield much more reliable results. This is especially the case if the Terminators are acting as a screen to prevent more valuable units in the SM army core from being assaulted (perhaps by Scarabs) and it's important to take them out quickly.

Alright ladies, info on how the game went can be found here, if you'd kindly take the time to give it a quick read and post some feedback, I'd appreciate it a lot.