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I doubt that Khan and Russ's armor would be described as baroque.

What Space Marines wore that kind of armor?
Could it be that he is holing a Custodes or some Inquisitor?

Custodes?
He 'd like to have constantin valdor then...

Trazyn collects important pieces of history, so I doubt its a generic space marine.
The style of the PA is the hint at the HH. If not a Primarch, it will be at least one of the characters of the series.

Maybe it's Kurze. The video feed cut off before he died, and Primarchs are fast as all hell, especially kurze

TheAngrySquig wrote:Maybe it's Kurze. The video feed cut off before he died, and Primarchs are fast as all hell, especially kurze

The Assassin had his stuff so i'm pretty sure he's dead...

I've never liked it, the video feed cut out and Kurze could have made a deal, he's very persuasive

TheAngrySquig wrote:I've never liked it, the video feed cut out and Kurze could have made a deal, he's very persuasive

Slight spoiler which reveals Curze's fate:


Also, as to the Power Armoured fella, I'll quite myself from another thread:

Just Dave wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Anyway, nothing about that statement lends me to jump to the Primarch conclusion. ALL space marines are giants among men, and baroque power armor basicly just means that it's elaborate, which being a subjective term, really could belong to any important or well-decorated marine.

This guy is pretty much spot on.

I think Games Workshop clearly wrote it to imply that it's a Primarch - and therefore create hype/speculation like this - but to also leave it ambiguous so it can still be debated over. IIRC a similar thing occurs in the new DE 'dex.
I wouldn't think about it too much; I highly doubt an answer will ever be revealed.

Well lets still look at our options
Russ- No, armour not baroque
Corax- Possible, but not particularly big as primarchs go, still 10 feet tall tho
Vulkan- Probable, baroque armour, huge, everything fits
Khan- No, probably owned by Vect
I'm not including the two missing ones because their dead

TheAngrySquig wrote:Russ- No, armour not baroque

Where did you get this idea from?

Corax- Possible, but not particularly big as primarchs go

And this one?

I'm not including the two missing ones because their dead

And this one?
Note: They are typically referred to as the missing and the lost...

The two lost primarchs are heavily implied to have been destroyed and their legions absorbed into the Ultramarines. I don't know where it says this, but I've heard about it enough.

Russ is noted as not adorning his armour, but that is a comment by Magnus so it may well just be a slam. Corax is definitely stated to be small as primarchs go, but I cant remember where. The missing two are dead because Russ killed one and the other was probably dead when they found him, causing Guilliman to swallow his legion

TheAngrySquig wrote:Russ is noted as not adorning his armour, but that is a comment by Magnus so it may well just be a slam. Corax is definitely stated to be small as primarchs go, but I cant remember where. The missing two are dead because Russ killed one and the other was probably dead when they found him, causing Guilliman to swallow his legion

Both ere found. One is hinted to have been killed by Russ and his legion and the other is a touch more mysterious...

TheAngrySquig wrote:Russ is noted as not adorning his armour, but that is a comment by Magnus so it may well just be a slam. Corax is definitely stated to be small as primarchs go, but I cant remember where.

Because you haven't. The "smallest" Primarch was Curze. Corax was fairly large, about on par with most of the Primarchs.

The missing two are dead because Russ killed one and the other was probably dead when they found him, causing Guilliman to swallow his legion

You're right on the first one, second one we don't know about.

But the Guilliman thing was speculation. Seriously. The Word Bearer who makes that accusation is immediately told to man up and shut up, as it's unbecoming even after the shaming of the Word Bearers by the Ultramarines.

acekevin8412 wrote:The two lost primarchs are heavily implied to have been destroyed and their legions absorbed into the Ultramarines. I don't know where it says this, but I've heard about it enough.

States it in the First Heretic.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Russ is noted as not adorning his armour, but that is a comment by Magnus so it may well just be a slam. Corax is definitely stated to be small as primarchs go, but I cant remember where. The missing two are dead because Russ killed one and the other was probably dead when they found him, causing Guilliman to swallow his legion

Look at the cover of Prospero Burns; that's pretty baroque.
I don't recall ever hearing of Corax being stated as small for a primarch, and as you said, he's still a primarch.
The Missing and The Lost is speculation, your opinion on them even more so; it's implied that the Wolves were unleashed on one, doesn't mean that killed their primarch though.* You have no reason to state the other was dead, it's just as likely he's "missing", hence his Legion being dissolved, which again is speculation, though likely.

*

Then you have to ask yourself how Trazyn would overcome a Primarch, why a primarch would be screaming and if the answer would ever be revealed. It's just the writer trying to make his character seem more extreme and create speculation for the reader which won't be answered.
It's the same case as the fella in the Dark Eldar 'dex.

Truth be told, I don't think it's a Primarch. This was people going wild with speculation, as per normal.

"A giant in baroque armor" can be any Space Marine--or even a freakin' Thunder Warrior.

Kanluwen wrote:But the Guilliman thing was speculation. Seriously. The Word Bearer who makes that accusation is immediately told to man up and shut up, as it's unbecoming even after the shaming of the Word Bearers by the Ultramarines.

To be fair, whilst speculation it's pretty reasonable.
The Ultramarines are HUGE, the Word Bearer wasn't told to shut up because he was wrong, just because it's speculation within the text doesn't mean it isn't written to hint at the truth.
Then again, like the captured Giant in Power Armour, this is unlikely to ever be revealed and should therefore be considered "speculation, but reasonable" IMHO.

The Ultramarines, while huge, are also known for having the most stable gene-seed.

It's almost like it makes it easier to swell their ranks, right?

Kanluwen wrote:This was people going wild with speculation, as per normal.

That's the point of the reference in the Codex really IMHO; make the character seem awesome(r) and create interest/speculation within the fanbase.

And yes, it does, but so do the Dark Angels and some others and how much can good gene seed do alone? Again, it's not unreasonable speculation.

Just Dave wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:This was people going wild with speculation, as per normal.

That's the point of the reference in the Codex really IMHO; make the character seem awesome(r) and create interest/speculation within the fanbase.

And thankfully, Ward at least can do it without going all Goto.

And yes, it does, but so do the Dark Angels and some others and how much can good gene seed do alone? Again, it's not unreasonable speculation.

The Dark Angels and Imperial Fist seed is relatively stable, but not entirely complete or receptive to mutations.

There's a reason there are so many Ultramarines Successor Chapters. It's because of several factors:
1) The Ultramarines' geneseed is stable.
2) The Ultramarines, and their Successors, are relatively well behaved in terms of how they react to higher authority figures.
3) They have no "big flaws" which come through the reaction of the seed to the host. Imperial Fists, for example, have a compulsion to collect the bones of their fallen comrades and scrimshaw them--as per the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book, but had been mentioned elsewhere before in brief.

Kanluwen wrote:The Dark Angels and Imperial Fist seed is relatively stable, but not entirely complete or receptive to mutations.

There's a reason there are so many Ultramarines Successor Chapters. It's because of several factors:
1) The Ultramarines' geneseed is stable.
2) The Ultramarines, and their Successors, are relatively well behaved in terms of how they react to higher authority figures.
3) They have no "big flaws" which come through the reaction of the seed to the host. Imperial Fists, for example, have a compulsion to collect the bones of their fallen comrades and scrimshaw them--as per the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book, but had been mentioned elsewhere before in brief.

I know this, but we're talking about Heresy/Great Crusade era here, so you can include the other Legions in this. The Word Bearers for example have stable geneseed also IIRC and are a notably large Legion, but even they are dwarfed by the Ultramarines. Again, you can speculate at the reason for this...

Again, I'm not saying the Ultramarines do or don't contain Marines from a missing Legion, but I think it's reasonable speculation.

When you say "dwarfed by the Ultramarines"--that's speculation.

If I'm remembering right, there wasn't some kind of incredibly huge difference. It was a Chapter(and before anyone tries to go "CHAPTERS DIDN'T EXIST THEN!"--yeah, they did. The Dark Angels, specifically, used "Chapters" as an organizational designation for multiple Companies) or two of Marines difference between the Ultras and Word Bearers at best.

Kanluwen wrote:There's a reason there are so many Ultramarines Successor Chapters. It's because of several factors:
1) The Ultramarines' geneseed is stable.
2) The Ultramarines, and their Successors, are relatively well behaved in terms of how they react to higher authority figures.
3) They have no "big flaws" which come through the reaction of the seed to the host. Imperial Fists, for example, have a compulsion to collect the bones of their fallen comrades and scrimshaw them--as per the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book, but had been mentioned elsewhere before in brief.

4) They're face smashingly big.

And it's hardly speculation. The Emperor says something like, "You are the second biggest legion bar, of course, the Ultramarines." I think that that alludes to them being big.

Kanluwen wrote:When you say "dwarfed by the Ultramarines"--that's speculation.

IIRC Dan Abnett said that the Ultramarines were ~50,000 Marines larger than the Word Bearers, pre-calth.

TheAngrySquig wrote:4) They're face smashingly big.

And it's hardly speculation. The Emperor says something like, "You are the second biggest legion bar, of course, the Ultramarines." I think that that alludes to them being big.

No, it doesn't.

It's YOU assuming that the allusion is making it a huge deal.

The Word Bearers could be thirty Marines less than the Ultramarines--that would still make the Ultramarines bigger.
They could be thirty THOUSAND Marines less than the Ultramarines--that would still make the Ultramarines bigger.

This is why you don't assume things, especially based upon incomplete information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:When you say "dwarfed by the Ultramarines"--that's speculation.

IIRC Dan Abnett said that the Ultramarines were ~50,000 Marines larger than the Word Bearers, pre-calth.

Cite a source, because that would mean that they were not simply having the "leftovers" of a purged Legion. It would mean that they were inflated to that size, knowingly--as "Legions" were 10k Astartes or so--with Word Bearers and Ultras having more, the rest hovering fairly close to that number for the most part.

Legions were bigger, in first heretic it is stated that the WB have 100,000 marines

Kan, mate, this was the side of you I was trying to avoid;

Much of 40K background is based off speculation and implication, like I've tried to express in this thread, making the baseless foundation that "the other was probably dead when they found him" is wrong IMHO, whereas the implication that Ultramarines include a missing Legion has a lot of foundation to it IMHO.
As we speak, I'm trying to find where/if Dan Abnett mentions the relative sizes. As I said before: "IIRC"

Just Dave wrote:
I think Games Workshop clearly wrote it to imply that it's a Primarch - and therefore create hype/speculation like this - but to also leave it ambiguous so it can still be debated over. IIRC a similar thing occurs in the new DE 'dex.
I wouldn't think about it too much; I highly doubt an answer will ever be revealed.

Kanluwen wrote:Truth be told, I don't think it's a Primarch. This was people going wild with speculation, as per normal.

"A giant in baroque armor" can be any Space Marine--or even a freakin' Thunder Warrior.

Thunder warriors didn't run around in power armor. But its specifically PA in the dex....

Kanluwen wrote:
The Dark Angels and Imperial Fist seed is relatively stable, but not entirely complete or receptive to mutations.

The DA geneseed incomplete? Instable? Mutations?
I doubt that.
The DA are just not obedient enough to act as source.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Legions were bigger, in first heretic it is stated that the WB have 100,000 marines

I'm starting to think people are confusing "Marines" with "Combat Troops".
Legions did actually include normal humans in their ranks as what amounted to their own "personal armies".

Just Dave wrote:Kan, mate, this was the side of you I was trying to avoid;

Much of 40K background is based off speculation and implication, like I've tried to express in this thread, making the baseless foundation that "the other was probably dead when they found him" is wrong IMHO, whereas the implication that Ultramarines include a missing Legion has a lot of foundation to it IMHO.
As we speak, I'm trying to find where/if Dan Abnett mentions the relative sizes. As I said before: "IIRC"

I actually just found it for you.

Abnett states that the Word Bearers were "150k combat troops" and talking about Cultists, while the Ultramarines are fully supported by the Imperial Army in vast numbers.

He states something of that "Calth will have a 3:1 ratio of Ultramarines to Word Bearers in terms of Astartes".

1hadhq wrote:Thunder warriors didn't run around in power armor. But its specifically PA in the dex....

"Thunder Armor" is Power Armor.

It's not as advanced as Mk2 and beyond--but it was Power Armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:No, it doesn't.

It's YOU assuming that the allusion is making it a huge deal.

The Word Bearers could be thirty Marines less than the Ultramarines--that would still make the Ultramarines bigger.
They could be thirty THOUSAND Marines less than the Ultramarines--that would still make the Ultramarines bigger.

This is why you don't assume things, especially based upon incomplete information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:When you say "dwarfed by the Ultramarines"--that's speculation.

IIRC Dan Abnett said that the Ultramarines were ~50,000 Marines larger than the Word Bearers, pre-calth.

Cite a source, because that would mean that they were not simply having the "leftovers" of a purged Legion. It would mean that they were inflated to that size, knowingly--as "Legions" were 10k Astartes or so--with Word Bearers and Ultras having more, the rest hovering fairly close to that number for the most part.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxl0TnkeYA&feature=related

Between 7.30 - 8.40

Obviously the numbers are very much rough estimates, but it's there.
In future, please try not to 'go off on one' like with me again, thanks.

First of all: it wasn't aimed at you. I've edited it to reflect it.

Second of all: I posted that video, as an embed and starting at the "important" bits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So let me put this bluntly here:

With this, we're now looking at a complete overhaul of the previous fluff. Prior to now, at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy--we're looking at 10-15k for Legions as a whole, at tops.

Now, we're seeing 100-150k for the two "biggest" Legions, Space Wolves being 7k, Thousand Sons being 5k, et al.

This is what I call "A Big Deal".