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Greyish wrote:Actually, this relates to an interesting segment in page 6 of the WH Codex about Living Saints. Within it mentions how member of the Ordo Malleus treat Living Saints with suspicion, believing they're warp entities looking to dominate certain fractions within the Imperium. Then there's the recent interest in the Sanguuinor too, which stretches along similar subject matter.

Is there some group that the Inquisition doesn't treat with suspicion?

Draigo is a leader of the most powerful order of Space Marines in the galaxy. His training and geneseed come from the best sources the Imperium of man can offer. As a fighting force, they take a metric crap on Custodes in both training and combat experience. They take to the battlefield with the tactics and cohesion of elite marines, except their battles are so horrendous those involved are killed or mind wiped to contain the truth.

So brutal are their foes and the battles they wage, that the most elite of the Blood Angels ranks, the Sanguinary Guard, only 29 strong in the entire galaxy, had to have their minds wiped after fighting alongside the GKs.

So is it far fetched to believe that their Chapter Master is a badass who shields himself with unbreakable faith in hell? Not really, kinda makes sense actually.

People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

If that is the case, why dont they just send them into the eye of terror.

Because apperantly they can single handedly destroy all chaos and everything. If they just send them to every major conflict(ie Hive Fleets, Ork Waaghs, Cadian Gate). They could wrap it up in maybe 2 weeks. Then run down Abbadon and finish of chaos once and for good.

I am pretty sure that will solve all the problem of the Imperium.

Hazard30 wrote:If that is the case, why dont they just send them into the eye of terror.

Because apperantly they can single handedly destroy all chaos and everything. If they just send them to every major conflict(ie Hive Fleets, Ork Waaghs, Cadian Gate). They could wrap it up in maybe 2 weeks. Then run down Abbadon and finish of chaos once and for good.

I am pretty sure that will solve all the problem of the Imperium.

That's the catch 22 to everything in the Imperium and why he fits perfectly.

The Imperium has the largest armies, yet they can't muster them in any single conflict.

The Imperium has an unbelievably powerful leader, but he can't fight.

The Imperium has amazing generals who are either missing or dead.

Draigo can break armies of Daemons and can stare into the eye of hell and remain pure, but... he's also trapped in hell.

Basically, the Imperium is an amazing powerhouse of untold might that is held in check by both internal and external factors.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Draigo is a leader of the most powerful order of Space Marines in the galaxy. His training and geneseed come from the best sources the Imperium of man can offer. As a fighting force, they take a metric crap on Custodes in both training and combat experience. They take to the battlefield with the tactics and cohesion of elite marines, except their battles are so horrendous those involved are killed or mind wiped to contain the truth.

So brutal are their foes and the battles they wage, that the most elite of the Blood Angels ranks, the Sanguinary Guard, only 29 strong in the entire galaxy, had to have their minds wiped after fighting alongside the GKs.

So is it far fetched to believe that their Chapter Master is a badass who shields himself with unbreakable faith in hell? Not really, kinda makes sense actually.

People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

Yes, it is ridiculously far fetched. It indicates that he has infinite reserves of both stamina an bullets, since he is apparently constantly fighting daemons. He would also be a more powerful psyker than the Emperor, since the Emperor never entered the Warp physically. Also consider that it is impossible for him to be their Supreme Grand Master unless all the other Grand Masters were present in the battle against Mortarion and chose not to help him.

And they mind-wipe people so that the knowledge of daemons doesn't tempt them into Chaos worship, not because the battles are incredibly intense.

Durza wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Draigo is a leader of the most powerful order of Space Marines in the galaxy. His training and geneseed come from the best sources the Imperium of man can offer. As a fighting force, they take a metric crap on Custodes in both training and combat experience. They take to the battlefield with the tactics and cohesion of elite marines, except their battles are so horrendous those involved are killed or mind wiped to contain the truth.

So brutal are their foes and the battles they wage, that the most elite of the Blood Angels ranks, the Sanguinary Guard, only 29 strong in the entire galaxy, had to have their minds wiped after fighting alongside the GKs.

So is it far fetched to believe that their Chapter Master is a badass who shields himself with unbreakable faith in hell? Not really, kinda makes sense actually.

People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

Yes, it is ridiculously far fetched. It indicates that he has infinite reserves of both stamina an bullets, since he is apparently constantly fighting daemons. He would also be a more powerful psyker than the Emperor, since the Emperor never entered the Warp physically. Also consider that it is impossible for him to be their Supreme Grand Master unless all the other Grand Masters were present in the battle against Mortarion and chose not to help him.

And they mind-wipe people so that the knowledge of daemons doesn't tempt them into Chaos worship, not because the battles are incredibly intense.

First off man, you're applying logistics to a place that is essentially hell, but called the warp. A lack of oxygen, water, and food would also see him dead long before a lack of ammo or weapons. But it's a realm where impossible is possible and the rules of our universe don't exist in the same way.

Secondly, their is nothing suggesting that the Emperor couldn't of gone into the warp if he wanted too. According to the fluff, Chaos was being ravaged by his psychic presence in the material realm. So it could be said that if he went into the warp he might of been capable of insane damage.

Finally, the mind wipes come largely from the fact that most battles against Daemons are conventional losses for the IoM. Only the GKs and a select few realize that the ongoing fight is essentially a losing one. For the better of the IoM, all who fight Daemons basically get a propaganda wipe to keep both the GKs and the nature of their job a secret.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:First off man, you're applying logistics to a place that is essentially hell, but called the warp. A lack of oxygen, water, and food would also see him dead long before a lack of ammo or weapons. But it's a realm where impossible is possible and the rules of our universe don't exist in the same way.

You realize that you're defending this fluff on the basis of "because, magic!" That should be a sign (in neon, about 100 feet tall, possibly on fire) that the fluff is poorly written. The fluff detractors are saying that Draigo is too is written as too over the top, and silly awesomely overpowered to be beliveable; and you are countering with a tautology, basically saying that Draigo's awesomeness can easily be explained by the fact that he's totally awesome.

Its because of The Emperor, if you look in the Daemons codex it has a little story about the Grey Knights and, in short, that The Emperor is the only reason the Imperium hasnt fallen yet...unknowing how long his power will last, Daemons have resorted to hit and run and find weak spots to try to deal some damage, and avoid the GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that being said, Draigo is a Prideful man who will stand tall and crush all who stand in the way of his hatred as his fury is guided by the Emperor

BeefCakeSoup wrote: People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

I believe it is more likely people hate him because they turned him into a diety overnight. Its much like the Ultramarines. Its not that people necessarily hate Ultramarines, its that everyone and their dog wants to emphasize them. Every box set, tons of books, the movie, the game, all of it. Draigo is just another poster boy, and eventually will be obsolete.

As Qui-Gon once said, "There's always a bigger fish".

daveNYC wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:First off man, you're applying logistics to a place that is essentially hell, but called the warp. A lack of oxygen, water, and food would also see him dead long before a lack of ammo or weapons. But it's a realm where impossible is possible and the rules of our universe don't exist in the same way.

You realize that you're defending this fluff on the basis of "because, magic!" That should be a sign (in neon, about 100 feet tall, possibly on fire) that the fluff is poorly written. The fluff detractors are saying that Draigo is too is written as too over the top, and silly awesomely overpowered to be beliveable; and you are countering with a tautology, basically saying that Draigo's awesomeness can easily be explained by the fact that he's totally awesome.

What I'm saying Dave is this, do you honestly find Draigo to be over-the-top in a universe where Space Wolves launch an undersea invasion from the sky against a Tau dome city, by dropping Land Raiders into the ocean loaded with terminators for an underwater Battlesuit vs Terminator torpedo fight?

A lot of things in Warhammer 40K are a bit extreme, Draigo is stuck in hell fighting hell. He has very little impact on the our universe outside form occasional blips from hell. Honestly dude, he's a friggin brilliant idea! He gives the Grey Knights their own badass hero to stand behind, without them getting a godmode hero who interferes with the current 40K setting. For all his badassery, he can't permanently escape the warp, thus he can't "win" any meaningful victories against Chaos or be unleashed against other foes etc etc

BeefCakeSoup wrote:People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

I disagree. Browsing these forums, I see two groups of people that pop up in several situations, regarding such things as necrons, draigo, and ward in general.

Group A - They like wards fluff. Claim that anyone who does not like it must be riding this hate bandwagon.
Group B - They don't like wards fluff because they find it stupid for all manner of reasons.

I've yet to see someone on these forums hate ward and his writings without a valid excuse. They may have heard a false rumor or bit of information, but regardless of that they hate the fluff simply because what they know/heard is utter tripe in there eyes.

Tlo1048 wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote: People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

I believe it is more likely people hate him because they turned him into a diety overnight. Its much like the Ultramarines. Its not that people necessarily hate Ultramarines, its that everyone and their dog wants to emphasize them. Every box set, tons of books, the movie, the game, all of it. Draigo is just another poster boy, and eventually will be obsolete.

As Qui-Gon once said, "There's always a bigger fish".

I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

You have no valid reason for hating Jar Jar, you're just bandwagoning because it's popular. He's actually an awesome character, the best ever, and you just don't get him.

Necroshea wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

I disagree. Browsing these forums, I see two groups of people that pop up in several situations, regarding such things as necrons, draigo, and ward in general.

Group A - They like wards fluff. Claim that anyone who does not like it must be riding this hate bandwagon.
Group B - They don't like wards fluff because they find it stupid for all manner of reasons.

I've yet to see someone on these forums hate ward and his writings without a valid excuse. They may have heard a false rumor or bit of information, but regardless of that they hate the fluff simply because what they know/heard is utter tripe in there eyes.

This.

Exalted.

If Ward's writing style and dubious fluff writing skills appeal to you, then fine. Enjoy them People enjoy Marvel comics too. Nothing wrong with indulging in a little superhero-worship

Doesn't mean the rest of us have to. If you give a damn about the fluff (rather than just the statlines and smacktalk) you have to notice eventually that he has a big rubber stamp marked 'RETCON' that he will use liberally, especially when it threatens fluff he has written or 'adjusted'.

His gonzoed special rules (which ALWAYS seem to need FAQing before they work ) don't help.


I don't want my codex turned up to 11. I didn't need a warp-proof uber-pure superman wannabe defecating all over the daemons fluff, even if it 'all gets better by magic afterwards' and he's stuck in the warp. As a former Grey Knights fanboy i was totally disgusted by his retcon of them.

Primarchs (let alone non-primarchs..) exposed to the warp mutate, for feths sake, so why doesn't he and his equipment? Does he supposedly never sleep, eat or tire? Does his gun never run dry, or his armour never take a hit? Is he immune to the amount of tankbusting firepower even lesser daemons can deal out, let alone the bigger ones?

He isn't the Emperor. and why would the Emperor not just drop him out of the warp if he cared that much about him to protect only him in the Warp, as he's doing feth all of use while he's there, and using Big E's energy reserves (which he would probably have a better use for than providing comic relief for the Big 4) to indulge his daemonbashing spree


In short, like much of Ward's Hero fantasies, it doesn't make much sense. The general concept of someone endlessly attempting an unending task, and never getting anywhere no matter what they do is ok, but the delivery was terrible, and it makes the Warp look like a cakewalk, not the ultimate threat it should be. That's what made the GK awesome before, was that they were facing the ultimate threat, knowing it would eventually kill them, and doing it anyway against stuff that was way more powerful than them, and could never truly be destroyed..

What do we have now? yeah..

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Tlo1048 wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote: People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

I believe it is more likely people hate him because they turned him into a diety overnight. Its much like the Ultramarines. Its not that people necessarily hate Ultramarines, its that everyone and their dog wants to emphasize them. Every box set, tons of books, the movie, the game, all of it. Draigo is just another poster boy, and eventually will be obsolete.

As Qui-Gon once said, "There's always a bigger fish".

I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

Hahaha, while I did not particularly like Jar Jar, insulting Qui-Gon is just pointless. Its Star wars.

@Seaward - lol.

Yes, Draigo is over the top. He struts around the Warp like it's nothing, a realm that flays your body from your soul in moments and that's even dangerous for the Grey Knights. He easily kills numerous Greater Daemons like they're not even there. He's is literally immune to the will of the Chaos Gods. I really don't care if none of his victories are 'meaningful' because in my eyes, having a single Space Marine, a member of the mortal world do any of the things he's done is already a massive victory.

Seaward wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

You have no valid reason for hating Jar Jar, you're just bandwagoning because it's popular. He's actually an awesome character, the best ever, and you just don't get him.

I hate him because he's fething annoying (for me at least)

Seems valid enough to me

I fele the same way about Anakin for the first two movies too

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:First off man, you're applying logistics to a place that is essentially hell, but called the warp. A lack of oxygen, water, and food would also see him dead long before a lack of ammo or weapons. But it's a realm where impossible is possible and the rules of our universe don't exist in the same way.

You realize that you're defending this fluff on the basis of "because, magic!" That should be a sign (in neon, about 100 feet tall, possibly on fire) that the fluff is poorly written. The fluff detractors are saying that Draigo is too is written as too over the top, and silly awesomely overpowered to be beliveable; and you are countering with a tautology, basically saying that Draigo's awesomeness can easily be explained by the fact that he's totally awesome.

What I'm saying Dave is this, do you honestly find Draigo to be over-the-top in a universe where Space Wolves launch an undersea invasion from the sky against a Tau dome city, by dropping Land Raiders into the ocean loaded with terminators for an underwater Battlesuit vs Terminator torpedo fight?

A lot of things in Warhammer 40K are a bit extreme, Draigo is stuck in hell fighting hell. He has very little impact on the our universe outside form occasional blips from hell. Honestly dude, he's a friggin brilliant idea! He gives the Grey Knights their own badass hero to stand behind, without them getting a godmode hero who interferes with the current 40K setting. For all his badassery, he can't permanently escape the warp, thus he can't "win" any meaningful victories against Chaos or be unleashed against other foes etc etc

I do. Even in the grim darkness of the 40th millenium, there's still the need for suspension of disbelief. Space Wolves and Land Raiders vs. Tau battle suits in an underwater battle is believable given the background that we've been given for power armor, land raiders, and crisis suits. All are described as being tough as nails and sealed against the environment. It's goofy and over the top, especially since the Tau would probably have developed a dedicated underwater attack craft that would WTFpwn equipment that was designed for dry land operations, but it still doesn't shatter the setting the same way that Draigo does.
The specific sins of the Draigo fluff (IMO) are:
1) Able to survive in the Warp. One of the main themes of the 40k setting is that the warp is corrupting and distructive. Always and forever, to everyone and everything. Being exposed to the raw warp destroys your body, shatters your mind, and eats your soul. This is what the warp is, and yet here we have Draigo just sort of wandering around kicking ass and chewing bubble gum (and there ain't no bubble gum).
2) Able to beat the tar out of entities that, in fluff, are legendary in their power. Daemon primarchs have always been like gods among insects in 40k, near unstoppable killing machines that are best stopped by suicidal attacks by the best Space Marines that money can buy and maybe a few lance batteries from naval ships in orbit. They're so powerful that GW has specifically written nearly all of them out of the plot because otherwise they tilt the balance of power in a story so much that the amount of plot armor required to get things back to the status quo is painful to read. Battle for the Fang is an example (it's still a good book). The story literally has Magnus stand still and not fight back (because he's surprised or some such) in at least two sections because otherwise he's just too much of a combat monster to be stopped. But here comes Draigo, who manages to beat one of these unholy fusions of chaos powers and Emperor designed flesh while on the primarch's home turf.

Basically, the problem isn't so much that what he is doing is silly and over the top. It's that what he is doing is silly and over the top, and is directly undercutting two narritive elements that I think are important to the fundimental workings of the 40k universe.

Seaward wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

You have no valid reason for hating Jar Jar, you're just bandwagoning because it's popular. He's actually an awesome character, the best ever, and you just don't get him.

Unlike Draigo, there is nothing redeeming about Jar-Jar. It's not even a bandwagon, it's like hating Adolf Hitler. It's just a line in the sand.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Durza wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Draigo is a leader of the most powerful order of Space Marines in the galaxy. His training and geneseed come from the best sources the Imperium of man can offer. As a fighting force, they take a metric crap on Custodes in both training and combat experience. They take to the battlefield with the tactics and cohesion of elite marines, except their battles are so horrendous those involved are killed or mind wiped to contain the truth.

So brutal are their foes and the battles they wage, that the most elite of the Blood Angels ranks, the Sanguinary Guard, only 29 strong in the entire galaxy, had to have their minds wiped after fighting alongside the GKs.

So is it far fetched to believe that their Chapter Master is a badass who shields himself with unbreakable faith in hell? Not really, kinda makes sense actually.

People utterly hate him because it's the popular thing to do.

Yes, it is ridiculously far fetched. It indicates that he has infinite reserves of both stamina an bullets, since he is apparently constantly fighting daemons. He would also be a more powerful psyker than the Emperor, since the Emperor never entered the Warp physically. Also consider that it is impossible for him to be their Supreme Grand Master unless all the other Grand Masters were present in the battle against Mortarion and chose not to help him.

And they mind-wipe people so that the knowledge of daemons doesn't tempt them into Chaos worship, not because the battles are incredibly intense.

First off man, you're applying logistics to a place that is essentially hell, but called the warp. A lack of oxygen, water, and food would also see him dead long before a lack of ammo or weapons. But it's a realm where impossible is possible and the rules of our universe don't exist in the same way.

Precisely. Draigo was taught to fight in the real world. None of that applies in the Warp, so he should have been eaten alive, flayed and roasted all at the same time.

Secondly, their is nothing suggesting that the Emperor couldn't have gone into the warp if he wanted too. According to the fluff, Chaos was being ravaged by his psychic presence in the material realm. So it could be said that if he went into the warp he might have been capable of insane damage.

If that could be said, then why did he launch the Crusades and waste time with the Primarch project instead of ripping a hole in reality and curb-stomping the gods?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Seaward wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I was interested until you quoted a bad star wars character from a terrible star wars movie. Now all I can think of is Jar Jar Binks... on the subject of hated characters...

You have no valid reason for hating Jar Jar, you're just bandwagoning because it's popular. He's actually an awesome character, the best ever, and you just don't get him.

Unlike Draigo, there is nothing redeeming about Jar-Jar. It's not even a bandwagon, it's like hating Adolf Hitler. It's just a line in the sand.

Without Jar Jar, Darth Maul couldn't have been killed. And why do you hate Hitler anyway? Is it because you've studied what he did and have come to the conclusion that it was vile and disgusting and he was a blight on humanity, or is it because you have been told by everyone that Hitler is evil?

If you're going to start defending Hitler i think your credibility just took a swandive, but the answer to that one is : Both

We've been told he was evil, because he was evil. There is evidence to support it.

A pile of Grox Dung being a better writer than Ward is much the same situation, but on a far less serious and world-altering note

And Jar Jar IS the 5th chaos god :(

Ascalam wrote:If you're going to start defending Hitler i think your credibility just took a swandive, but the answer to that one is : Both

Precisely what did I say that supported him?

A pile of Grox Dung being a better writer than Ward is much the same situation, but on a far less serious and world-altering note

And Jar Jar IS the 5th chaos god :(

6th. Boba Fett is the 5th.

Hitler may have done alot of bad, but he also did alot of good that you don't hear about.

He turned a country which was completly bankrupt and turned into a world power capable of conquering most of Europe, he instituted anti smoking and overal fitness campaigns and supported scientific research.
He may have done it all for the wrong reasons (racial superiority/ genocide), but he did do good things.

TBH i wouldn't doubt that if the holocaust didn't happen, Hitler would be studied in Economics and Gov classes

Since it did happen, he's captain evil... not that he doesn't serve the title, but he did do some good in his life...

Most Draigo threads are bad, but this one is special...

A pile of Grox Dung being a better writer than Ward is much the same situation, but on a far less serious and world-altering note

And Jar Jar IS the 5th chaos god :(

6th. Boba Fett is the 5th.