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That is plain awesomeness.

Without considering the rest of my force, the vanilla russ with HB sponsons is the win. It is useful in almost every type of engagement. There are corner cases with certain game types and certain army builds where I would rather have one of the more specialized variants, but for the most part, once I have a list I rarely modify it (except for different pts totals obviously), and I already own a vanilla russ (from back when IQ could induct guard), and if I were to buy another I would rather not throw money down the rat hole of having to buy a different tank for each list, and some of the variants don't lend themselves well to magnetizing. My current LRBT can be switched back and forth between LC and HB, but I generally find magnets to be a big pain in the butt.

Yeah just because something is weak is doesn't mean that more of it will be any better. Althought that is amazingly bad luck.

Although rough math hammer.

384/2 = 192 shots hit

192/2 = 96 "wounds"

then 2/3 chance of making saves <--- this is wrong its actually 5/6 chance which is roughly 83% chance

31 wounds stick. So yeah bad luck. <----- channges this to 16 wounds stick.

assuming no cover.

*edit shows why punisher is bad 384 shots and 16 wounds assuming no cover saves....

I take a Vulture Gunship with Twin-linked Punisher cannons. Makes them so much more effective against troops. However, that isn't an option for the LR. I'd look for versatility in my tanks, and so take the standard LR, with a hull lascannon.

The Vulture with TL Punisher...Thing of beauty. I've always wanted to run an Apache with the guard...

I actually like the Exterminator.

I used to play against Orks a lot, and the auto cannons were great at popping cheap armor for the trukks.

Also, I put HB sponsons and pintle stubbers on as well - so that got me 4 T/L AC, 9 HB and 3 Stubber shots.

on an A/V 14 vehicle, that's very survivable cheap (comparatively) and could shoot everything while on the move.

I don't "own" any Hydra's or I'd use them, for sure. Still, I think the platform is worth considering - 1 or 2 Hydras and they are getting targeted.

2 Exterminators and you might get away with them surviving the whole game. It's amazing what that barrage of shots can accomplish in 1 turn.

Captain Knight wrote:The punisher is good when you put it in a squadron, then you can fire off 40-87 shots at the enemy and I don't care what armour save or toughness he has 87 strength 5 shots will wipe out a squad of dark eldar and space marines easy.

This is incorrect in the assumption that more will suddenly make it better. Bringing more bad tanks will only result in more bad tanks, not good tanks. For the same points, you can buy a far better tank that performs just as well at clearing hordes and can do dual duty killing ANYTHING else. The Punisher is just plain bad. Besides, squadrons are terrible to begin with, and hurt you more than anything.

This is all speaking in terms of competitiveness, for fun and semi-competitive stuff, by all means, use it. But if you want to win, the Punisher is not a worthwhile option.

As has been pointed out, punisher cannons work on the vulture, because of three reasons.

1. Twin-linked.
2. Fast platform really helps negate the range issue.
3. Cost. Punisher cannon Vulture is 155pts.

For Russes, the Punisher is just bad. I wish it was good, but sadly, it isn't.

*EDIT* 1000 POSTS!

Deadshot wrote:That remionds me of an Apoc game I pklayed where a IG Vet Player (he had aboput 20 of everything, including about 6 Baneblades and 3 Shadowswords). He took a big giant unit of like 12 Punisherrs or something with 3 Heavy Boltwers.

On the far objective, just in range of all 12 tanks, was 10 SS Termies. In this game, any non vehicle could captuyre, and at turn 6 it was 0 (us) :1 objective. these buggers would not die. I emptied about 3 scheduled bombardments into thwem over the coarse of a game. Not one fell.

Untill these Punishers fired on them. 384 Str 5 shots were fired on the unit. 1 died.

Fail


Then a Termagant assaulted the unit, killed one and survived. Termies don't kill it, they fail morale and run off board.

Epic Fail.

That Termagnt now controlled the objective, so it was 1-0 us. The game ends.

Complete and utter Epic Failure.

Lolwut?
That is crazy!

That also reminds me of my FLGS. One of the guys (who goes to my Church) has a reputation of being able to roll 20 dice and get like 15 's

Geat thread! I've been thinking about this myself.

Perhaps you can help me with my current quandry.

I currently have 2 russes
1 -Demo with hull lascannon and no sponsons
1 -MBT with 3 HB's

I've got 2 of the old Russ kits waiting to be assembled. One can be either MBT or Demo and one can only be MBT.
How would you assemble them? I'm not using magnets.

Eilif - Id go ahead and make another Demo and MBT with those two. That way you can field as 2 MBT or 2 Demo in different lists requiring different support OR into 2 squadrons leaving room for a Manticore or Hydra.

The cannon on the Demo kit can be freely swapped out, as can hull and sponsons on both kits. I would go LRBT with empty weapons that can be freely exchanged, and leave all the weapon plugs on the demo unplugged to swap out.

But if you want them to be glued in, I would go MBT with Lascannons and Heavy Bolters, and Executioner with all Plasma Cannons.

all leman russes are lame they'll never kill me
(by the way, I'm his best mate and we're going to battle on his birthday)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
all leman russes are lame they'll never kill me
(by the way, I'm his best mate and we're going to battle on his birthday)

Majsharan wrote:under the right circumstances the exterminator can be amazing, it loses the the auto tracking of hyrdas but it gets 2x as many shots as 1 is the same price than 2 and is on a much sturdier frame.

No. The Exterminator has four shots. The hydra has two guns with two shots each so they have the same number of shots.

I would say regular LRBT with lascannon, no sponsons or Executioner with lascannon and no sponsons. Sponsons are a point sink and encourage you not to move.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Majsharan wrote:under the right circumstances the exterminator can be amazing, it loses the the auto tracking of hyrdas but it gets 2x as many shots as 1 is the same price than 2 and is on a much sturdier frame.

No. The Exterminator has four shots. The hydra has two guns with two shots each so they have the same number of shots.

I would say regular LRBT with lascannon, no sponsons or Executioner with lascannon and no sponsons. Sponsons are a point sink and encourage you not to move.

I would argue for HB sponsons on some variants, especially with the battlecannon + hull lascannon (If I am feeling lucky I'll even add the stormbolter pintle). They are cheap enough, that if you only fire them once or twice, you aren't out much, but their ability to eat infantry alive, even if it is only a backup plan, is priceless. Besides the battle cannon has enough range, that you are only likely to move it once, barring any defensive maneuvering or tankshocking units off the board (and when you do that, you may as well open up with the HBs too).

That being said my advice should be taken with a grain of salt since 90% of my leman russ playing was with it inducted into witch hunters, which is a fairly different beast than straight Imperial Guard.

Just as deadshot says: the obvious thing to take from the answers so far is that there is a Russ variant for just about any situation. That is what makes it so successful.

MEQ - standard battle tank/executioner/demolisher
Terminator/meganob heavy - demolisher/executioner
Light vehicles - exterminator
Heavy vehicles - vanquisher
Lots of cover - eradicators
Massed infantry - punisher

Armless Failure wrote: They are cheap enough, that if you only fire them once or twice, you aren't out much, but their ability to eat infantry alive, even if it is only a backup plan, is priceless. Besides the battle cannon has enough range, that you are only likely to move it once, barring any defensive maneuvering or tankshocking units off the board

I would say that they need to always be moving to keep them from being eaten alive in CC. Doubly so if they're in squadrons as only one tank in the squadron needs to be assaulted for all of them to die.

Armless Failure wrote: (and when you do that, you may as well open up with the HBs too).

If you're moving then you can only shoot one weapon (>S4) beside the turret.

EXTERMINATORS ARE LIKE DAKKADAKKADAKKA! DARK ELDAR AND ORKS ARE LIKE "OH FETH, THEY'VE DESTROYED OUR BOATS AND BUGGIES! WE HAVE TO CONTINUE ON FOOT INTO A NEVER ENDING VOLLEY OF LASFIRE!".

Yet Hydras are cheaper and ignore the Flat Out/Turbo Boosters cover save, are the same Str and AP, and I believe longer ranged, and Hydras are far cheaper.

The standard one is the best I think but Punisher is my personal favorite.

Deadshot wrote:Yet Hydras are cheaper and ignore the Flat Out/Turbo Boosters cover save, are the same Str and AP, and I believe longer ranged, and Hydras are far cheaper.

But the Exterminator has superior armour by far, and so although double the cost in points, its will last for a much longer than the Hydra, enabling it over the course of the game to rack up more kills than the Hydra.

It can also fire its turrent weapon on the move, as well as the heavy bolter, wheras hydra can only shoot one autocannon on the move.
I'm not saying the Exterminator is a good choice or anything, but you have to be fair with these things.

You get 2 Hydras for 1 Exterminator, and weapon destruyed doesn't remove the entire weapon. Just 1, so 2 shots still go through. Plus, those 2 get twice the shots, and if you want to get a few extra pointas, you can just take one. If you want to get some points from the Exterminator, the whole thing needs to go. Just a higher AV is not going to help, where Melta Weapons/Bombs, Lances, Power Fists and TH are so common.

PLASMA PLASMA PLASMA with Commander Pask and a las cannon. The Las hits for strength 10 against vehicles, the FIVE plates you get can glancing hit a land raider, oh and the heavy stubber you can add is strength 7 against vehicles.

Expensive, but if you play it right it's SOOOO much fun.

sfshilo wrote:PLASMA PLASMA PLASMA with Commander Pask and a las cannon. The Las hits for strength 10 against vehicles, the FIVE plates you get can glancing hit a land raider, oh and the heavy stubber you can add is strength 7 against vehicles.

Expensive, but if you play it right it's SOOOO much fun.

The heavy stubber is S4 normally, adding pask would make it S5 against vehicles, and only when you sit still.

Pask in an executioner is bad option. It makes an already expensive tank really expensive, and not even better at what its supposed to shoot. Why would you shoot S8 against a land raider just to get a single S10 shot? In short, not only is Pask a bad choice in general, but he's useless in the Executioner. By the way, that tank would cost 290pts...that's absurd.

Pask only works in the Exterminator, really. Same concept as a Psyfledread, only with AV14. But really expensive.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Armless Failure wrote: They are cheap enough, that if you only fire them once or twice, you aren't out much, but their ability to eat infantry alive, even if it is only a backup plan, is priceless. Besides the battle cannon has enough range, that you are only likely to move it once, barring any defensive maneuvering or tankshocking units off the board

I would say that they need to always be moving to keep them from being eaten alive in CC. Doubly so if they're in squadrons as only one tank in the squadron needs to be assaulted for all of them to die.

Armless Failure wrote: (and when you do that, you may as well open up with the HBs too).

If you're moving then you can only shoot one weapon (>S4) beside the turret.

Okay in my experience I rarely have to move it, but most of the gents I have played against in the recent past are either nervous about the risks of deep striking or focused on eradicating scoring (which actually proved rather effective in the days before the new C:SoB). But that is just me.

Blacksails wrote:

sfshilo wrote:PLASMA PLASMA PLASMA with Commander Pask and a las cannon. The Las hits for strength 10 against vehicles, the FIVE plates you get can glancing hit a land raider, oh and the heavy stubber you can add is strength 7 against vehicles.

Expensive, but if you play it right it's SOOOO much fun.

The heavy stubber is S4 normally, adding pask would make it S5 against vehicles, and only when you sit still.

Pask in an executioner is bad option. It makes an already expensive tank really expensive, and not even better at what its supposed to shoot. Why would you shoot S8 against a land raider just to get a single S10 shot? In short, not only is Pask a bad choice in general, but he's useless in the Executioner. By the way, that tank would cost 290pts...that's absurd.

Pask only works in the Exterminator, really. Same concept as a Psyfledread, only with AV14. But really expensive.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE. Disagree with everything but the stubber, always mix it up with the multilaser stats.

Pask has BS 4. You miss with that, you're done. No more shots, and from the sounds of it you didn't put the plasma on the sponsons since they are "expensive".
Where as Pask in an executioner WILL get you four or more shots on target every time, and then you can at least stun, shake, ANYTHING your target. BS3 tanks, much like BS3 Sentinals with las cannons, don't hit crap. Plates all the way. Why not use the normal lemun russ then you ask? AP2. Better spread with 3 small plates, it's a 2+ to wound on most stuff anyway, that extra Strength you get does nothing to those wonderful terminator squads.

And if they want to go after my big shiney plasma spewing commander, go right ahead, I've got a hell of a lot more firepower besides him.

Just my two cents, I like my tanks expensive, nasty and exciting to play with.

sfshilo wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

sfshilo wrote:PLASMA PLASMA PLASMA with Commander Pask and a las cannon. The Las hits for strength 10 against vehicles, the FIVE plates you get can glancing hit a land raider, oh and the heavy stubber you can add is strength 7 against vehicles.

Expensive, but if you play it right it's SOOOO much fun.

The heavy stubber is S4 normally, adding pask would make it S5 against vehicles, and only when you sit still.

Pask in an executioner is bad option. It makes an already expensive tank really expensive, and not even better at what its supposed to shoot. Why would you shoot S8 against a land raider just to get a single S10 shot? In short, not only is Pask a bad choice in general, but he's useless in the Executioner. By the way, that tank would cost 290pts...that's absurd.

Pask only works in the Exterminator, really. Same concept as a Psyfledread, only with AV14. But really expensive.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE. Disagree with everything but the stubber, always mix it up with the multilaser stats.

Pask has BS 4. You miss with that, you're done. No more shots, and from the sounds of it you didn't put the plasma on the sponsons since they are "expensive".
Where as Pask in an executioner WILL get you four or more shots on target every time, and then you can at least stun, shake, ANYTHING your target. BS3 tanks, much like BS3 Sentinals with las cannons, don't hit crap. Plates all the way. Why not use the normal lemun russ then you ask? AP2. Better spread with 3 small plates, it's a 2+ to wound on most stuff anyway, that extra Strength you get does nothing to those wonderful terminator squads.

And if they want to go after my big shiney plasma spewing commander, go right ahead, I've got a hell of a lot more firepower besides him.

Just my two cents, I like my tanks expensive, nasty and exciting to play with.

Right, you're obviously entitled to playing what you like, but in terms of competitiveness, this 290pts tank is only workable in a purely fun environment. Against even a semi-competitive list and player, this tank will do nothing more than the stock executioner does.

A single BS4 lascannon isn't great. Ask every space marine player. The difference between a BS3 plate and a BS4 plate is one inch...that's it. Paying 50pts to subtract an inch from my deviations is not a good use of points, in the slightest.

Shooting S8 at AV14 is a huge waste, and BS4 will not ensure they always land target. To stun or shake that AV14 target, you'll need to hit it, which you'll do 50% of the time on average (even with BS4), then roll a six for your armour pen, then roll a 5-6 to do any damage to the land raider.

Again, the difference between BS3 and 4 is an inch in deviation. Very rarely will that come into play. Essentially, the targets you should be shooting at die the same to my stock executioner as they do to your 290pts bling-mobile. That 100pts difference is the cost of a Hydra and then some, or most of the way to another vendetta in my list, or nearly two chimeras. Its really a waste for anyone looking to play even remotely competitively.

But again, you're entitled to your style of play. When speaking in terms of competitiveness, a pask executioner with all the gear is pretty far from competitive. I'd go as far as saying its a handicap.

Deadshot wrote:That remionds me of an Apoc game I pklayed where a IG Vet Player (he had aboput 20 of everything, including about 6 Baneblades and 3 Shadowswords). He took a big giant unit of like 12 Punisherrs or something with 3 Heavy Boltwers.

On the far objective, just in range of all 12 tanks, was 10 SS Termies. In this game, any non vehicle could captuyre, and at turn 6 it was 0 (us) :1 objective. these buggers would not die. I emptied about 3 scheduled bombardments into thwem over the coarse of a game. Not one fell.

Untill these Punishers fired on them. 384 Str 5 shots were fired on the unit. 1 died.

Fail


Then a Termagant assaulted the unit, killed one and survived. Termies don't kill it, they fail morale and run off board.

Epic Fail.

That Termagnt now controlled the objective, so it was 1-0 us. The game ends.

Complete and utter Epic Failure.

That sounds GLORIOUS
I love games like that xD