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nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

So you have no rule saying you ignore modifiers then?

I have a rule saying I modify your characteristic value, such as the whip coil / lash whip set value, and you do not have a rule allowing you to ignore it, meaning you must use the modified value

Additive and multiplicative modifiers are applied before set value, so i4 -> 4+1 -> i1 is what would happen with MoS marines. Being a "permanent" modifier or not is irrelevant, as per the brb you simply apply in the prescribed order.

No, but you don't need to have it say it ignores modifiers. Since it is a "characteristic" test, you would take the test against what is in the base profile. Let's take, for example, smash attacks. By your guys' reasoning if you apply modifiers to a characteristic profile (which a set value *is* a modifier) as if they are changing the models actual profile then smash attacks would work exactly the opposite of what the rulebook FAQ says.

Yes, there *are* modifiers purchased via wargear that will change the characteristic but these are purchased and equipped prior to the game and will tell you exactly what they do.

How would it work opposite? You're trying to apply a moodier to an unmodified start (for HoW).

Kevin - again, nothing says it must be unmodified. We know tests can be made on modified characteristics, given that Sweeping advance specific "unmodified"

So, again, you have no rules support for saying you ignore modifiers, and we have rules support saying you do apply modifiers.

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

So you have no rule saying you ignore modifiers then?

I have a rule saying I modify your characteristic value, such as the whip coil / lash whip set value, and you do not have a rule allowing you to ignore it, meaning you must use the modified value

Additive and multiplicative modifiers are applied before set value, so i4 -> 4+1 -> i1 is what would happen with MoS marines. Being a "permanent" modifier or not is irrelevant, as per the brb you simply apply in the prescribed order.

No, but you don't need to have it say it ignores modifiers. Since it is a "characteristic" test, you would take the test against what is in the base profile. Let's take, for example, smash attacks. By your guys' reasoning if you apply modifiers to a characteristic profile (which a set value *is* a modifier) as if they are changing the models actual profile then smash attacks would work exactly the opposite of what the rulebook FAQ says.

Yes, there *are* modifiers purchased via wargear that will change the characteristic but these are purchased and equipped prior to the game and will tell you exactly what they do.

Umm... What? The rules for making a smash attack have nothing to do with taking a characteristic test. I think you really are confusing the difference between using a profile characteristic and taking a test against it.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

So you have no rule saying you ignore modifiers then?

I have a rule saying I modify your characteristic value, such as the whip coil / lash whip set value, and you do not have a rule allowing you to ignore it, meaning you must use the modified value

Additive and multiplicative modifiers are applied before set value, so i4 -> 4+1 -> i1 is what would happen with MoS marines. Being a "permanent" modifier or not is irrelevant, as per the brb you simply apply in the prescribed order.

No, but you don't need to have it say it ignores modifiers. Since it is a "characteristic" test, you would take the test against what is in the base profile. Let's take, for example, smash attacks. By your guys' reasoning if you apply modifiers to a characteristic profile (which a set value *is* a modifier) as if they are changing the models actual profile then smash attacks would work exactly the opposite of what the rulebook FAQ says.

Yes, there *are* modifiers purchased via wargear that will change the characteristic but these are purchased and equipped prior to the game and will tell you exactly what they do.

Umm... What? The rules for making a smash attack have nothing to do with taking a characteristic test. I think you really are confusing the difference between using a profile characteristic and taking a test against it.

No, I'm not, you're just not seeing it. Characteristic tests are taken against characteristics...I don't see how that isn't clear. A characteristic is the stat in the models profile. I used the smash attack FAQ as a barometer to show that when something calls for a "characteristic" they clearly mean unmodified stat. There's no difference between *using* and *taking a test against*. If you take a test against it, you're using it. To say otherwise is just you making things up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
How would it work opposite? You're trying to apply a moodier to an unmodified start (for HoW).

No, what I'm saying is that if they're claiming that modifiers actually CHANGE the stat line of a model then smash attacks would not work how they work. Modifiers do not "change" a stat, they simply modify it. Obviously there are some exceptions, but these are pieces of wargear or upgrades and explicit say what they do. If something specifically calls for a characteristic to be used (as the case with characteristic test can clearly only be), it would have to be on unmodified stats as they call for what is in the profile, not what is currently in use. Nor do they say to use any modifiers, as it is implied by the nature of the test to only use the actual characteristic and nothing else.

 Kevin949 wrote:


No, I'm not, you're just not seeing it. Characteristic tests are taken against characteristics...I don't see how that isn't clear. A characteristic is the stat in the models profile. I used the smash attack FAQ as a barometer to show that when something calls for a "characteristic" they clearly mean unmodified stat. There's no difference between *using* and *taking a test against*. If you take a test against it, you're using it. To say otherwise is just you making things up.

You are not playing this correctly. Using a characteristic, lets say the Attack value tells you how many attacks your model has as a characteristic. If I have to take a characteristic test against my Attack Characteristic this the the number I would need to roll under or a natural 1. Now I can also use my Attack characteristic to interact with other rules. Lets say I charge and I have a special rule that lets me add a D6 to my attack characteristic on a charge. So if my Attack Characteristic is 1 and I charge I get 1+1+D6= the number of attacks I make on a charge. No test, just use of my characteristic.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


No, I'm not, you're just not seeing it. Characteristic tests are taken against characteristics...I don't see how that isn't clear. A characteristic is the stat in the models profile. I used the smash attack FAQ as a barometer to show that when something calls for a "characteristic" they clearly mean unmodified stat. There's no difference between *using* and *taking a test against*. If you take a test against it, you're using it. To say otherwise is just you making things up.

You are not playing this correctly. Using a characteristic, lets say the Attack value tells you how many attacks your model has as a characteristic. If I have to take a characteristic test against my Attack Characteristic this the the number I would need to roll under or a natural 1. Now I can also use my Attack characteristic to interact with other rules. Lets say I charge and I have a special rule that lets me add a D6 to my attack characteristic on a charge. So if my Attack Characteristic is 1 and I charge I get 1+1+D6= the number of attacks I make on a charge. No test, just use of my characteristic.

Ok. But you're still "using" your characteristic either way. Again, in your example if you apply your methodology that modifiers change (instead of appending to) your characteristic then if your charging model was an MC that chose to do smash you would halve the characteristic after modifiers. The FAQ cleared it up so that's not the case, obviously, but situational modifiers do not change the characteristic they simply add/subtract from it (or set it, but it's still a modifier). A characteristic test calls for what is in the profile, not what is in the profile after situational modifiers.

The Faq clarified you halve first, because that is order of operations. And yes, I am aware that I was originally arguing to halve after everything else.

While I don't like it and it's implications pg 7 does say "Roll a d6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model's profile."

Every part of the characteristic test rules refers to the number on the profile which means in the case of characteristic tests you'd have to ignore modifiers.

Unless of course there is a rule that explicitly states it changes the number in a model's profile.

Like I said it sucks but that's how GW printed it.

All modifiers to characteristics are modifiers to the profile. that's how they work. You start with a profile of characteristics, and then you modify that profile based on equipment, special rules, etc. If my SM character is on a Bike and a special rule says to take a Toughness test, he gets to use his T5, unless it specifically says to test against his "unmodified" Toughness.

The rules for characteristic tests tell us that, in general, you use the characteristic, not the unmodified characteristic. While you're in base contact with a whip coil-equipped model, your Initiative characteristic is 1. This is the value you'd test on for Time's Arrow.

 Mannahnin wrote:
All modifiers to characteristics are modifiers to the profile. that's how they work. You start with a profile of characteristics, and then you modify that profile based on equipment, special rules, etc. If my SM character is on a Bike and a special rule says to take a Toughness test, he gets to use his T5, unless it specifically says to test against his "unmodified" Toughness.

The rules for characteristic tests tell us that, in general, you use the characteristic, not the unmodified characteristic. While you're in base contact with a whip coil-equipped model, your Initiative characteristic is 1. This is the value you'd test on for Time's Arrow.

Well remember, their toughness is a straight 5 now, it's not a modifier like previously. Also, bikers toughness stats are clearly stated in their profile prior to the game.

Also, characteristic testing like this was never how it was done in the previous edition and the wording for characteristic tests is near identical (it's fleshed out more in 6th), so I don't see why it's different now.

Yes, I agree that wargear/equipment you have that changes your base statline (such as a mark that increases STR or INIT) would change the base profile characteristic, that's how it functionally works. Once the game starts though, the profile is set, modifiers to it mid-game shouldn't change the base profile, just append to it.

 Tarrasq wrote:
While I don't like it and it's implications pg 7 does say "Roll a d6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model's profile."

Yes, and it does not say UNMODIFIED profile. So any modifier to the profile, such as times arrow or MoS et al, are applied before you take the test.

Mannahnin summed it up.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Once the game starts though, the profile is set, modifiers to it mid-game shouldn't change the base profile, just append to it.

I have never read a rule to back this, only the one stating that the characteristics can be modified.

It also says the same thing about saves (armor/invuln) so are you saying that you would have to ignore modifiers to those stats as well?

Also because wargear does not change the printed profile in the codex, which is what you are told to consult for army info, even adding wargear that gives you saves would be ignored as well correct?

 NecronLord3 wrote:


No you don't have two characteristics. You have one. Your I5 was reduced with a 1 therefore you have 1 for iniative. This is really one of the most basic concepts of the game on any other. If you had a characteristic value and it always existed even when another rule gave you a different value, but you always use the highest, all rules giving you a lower value would have absolutely no effect on the game ever. So do you want to play the game under the assumption that ther are complete and totall pointless rules that exist for no reason but to take up space on a page?

I'm not saying you always use the highest. I'm say that page 7 has a rule for taking characteristic tests. They go out of their way to say if you have more than one characteristic, you use the best. All game long, use your modified stat (to hit, to wound, to be wounded... and so on). But when called to to make a Characteristic Test, you use your best.

Just how many characteristic tests do we have in the game anyway?
Sweeping Advance isn't a characteristic test. You're not rolling a D6 and trying to roll under your initiative. Sweep does use initiative, but not in a characteristic test method, as outlined in the rules on page 7. Anything involving Leadership and Armor saves are also specifically excluded for the rules with characteristic tests.

-Matt

I agree that sweeping advance when involving set value modifying equipment, should be effected by Iniative 1 models. But a) it will probably rarely matter, as you use the best Iniative available to get away and b)I don't think you'll find a tournament or opponent who supports that argument.

Just how many characteristic tests do we have in the game anyway?
Sweeping Advance isn't a characteristic test. You're not rolling a D6 and trying to roll under your initiative. Sweep does use initiative, but not in a characteristic test method, as outlined in the rules on page 7. Anything involving Leadership and Armor saves are also specifically excluded for the rules with characteristic tests.

If the unit as a whole was called on to make an Init test, then yes, they use the single highest value.

If the model is called on to take a test, it uses whatever its current value is.

Sweeping Advance is not a characteristic test, but provides useful data as a basis for comparison, in that it specifies that you use the unmodified Init stat. As opposed to the general rules for Characteristic Tests, which do not.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Just how many characteristic tests do we have in the game anyway?
Sweeping Advance isn't a characteristic test. You're not rolling a D6 and trying to roll under your initiative. Sweep does use initiative, but not in a characteristic test method, as outlined in the rules on page 7. Anything involving Leadership and Armor saves are also specifically excluded for the rules with characteristic tests.

If the unit as a whole was called on to make an Init test, then yes, they use the single highest value.

If the model is called on to take a test, it uses whatever its current value is.

Sweeping Advance is not a characteristic test, but provides useful data as a basis for comparison, in that it specifies that you use the unmodified Init stat. As opposed to the general rules for Characteristic Tests, which do not.

That makes about as much sense as saying rolling to wound isn't a characteristic test, but it uses modified stats.

Gravmyr wrote:
It also says the same thing about saves (armor/invuln) so are you saying that you would have to ignore modifiers to those stats as well?

Also because wargear does not change the printed profile in the codex, which is what you are told to consult for army info, even adding wargear that gives you saves would be ignored as well correct?

You don't take a characteristic test against an armor save.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
Mannahnin summed it up.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Once the game starts though, the profile is set, modifiers to it mid-game shouldn't change the base profile, just append to it.

I have never read a rule to back this, only the one stating that the characteristics can be modified.

It doesn't need to be a rule, it's how the rules are written.

 Kevin949 wrote:
It doesn't need to be a rule. . . .

This is where we disagree.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

Just how many characteristic tests do we have in the game anyway?
Sweeping Advance isn't a characteristic test. You're not rolling a D6 and trying to roll under your initiative. Sweep does use initiative, but not in a characteristic test method, as outlined in the rules on page 7. Anything involving Leadership and Armor saves are also specifically excluded for the rules with characteristic tests.

If the unit as a whole was called on to make an Init test, then yes, they use the single highest value.

If the model is called on to take a test, it uses whatever its current value is.

Sweeping Advance is not a characteristic test, but provides useful data as a basis for comparison, in that it specifies that you use the unmodified Init stat. As opposed to the general rules for Characteristic Tests, which do not.

That makes about as much sense as saying rolling to wound isn't a characteristic test, but it uses modified stats.

I don't follow you. The Sweeping Advance rules provide clear proof that the 40k rules do make a distinction between a characteristic and an unmodified characteristic, and that if they mean us to use the unmodified characteristic for a specific application, they will say so in the rule. The general rules for characteristic tests do NOT say to use the unmodified characteristic, so by default, if you take a characteristic test, you'll use the modified value. A SM hero on a bike, or a Plague Marine, will take any Toughness tests on his T5. A Daemonic Herald of Khorne with the +1 Strength Gift will take Strength tests on S5. A Warlock with the Enhance power will take Initiative tests on his Initiative of 5. And a model in base contact with a Wraith with Whip Coils, if called on to take an Initiative test while in contact with that Wraith, will test on its current Initiative of 1.