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I really liked the old fluff;
ie an unthinking unstoppable force that's trying to exterminate all life in the galaxy, not just Tombs Kings in space. If they're going down that roots i demand SQUATS to return

Deathly Angel wrote:

Namica wrote:Though honestly, I like the new Necron fluff, and think that people who bitch about it are bitching for the sake of it.

Or maybe those people loved the old lore and are more than just a bit dissapointed that, according to their own codex, it now never existed. It's perfectly fine if you like the new background, just don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you.

Yep. it just feels very out of touch with the rest of the newer lore, way out of touch with the old stuff, introduces a new heavily, obviously, and shamelessly derivative back story to the Necrons, contradicts existing material...

I mean, what could possibly be confusing about why people don't like it?

BlackMath wrote:Its a solid codex, fluff and rule wise.

Rulewise? Yeah sure, it's pretty solid.

the fluff is good too. The Necrons are WAY more interesting than they were before, and I had 6k of the old ones (as to say I liked them).

While I take no issue with you liking it, the notion that old Necron players are not allowed to dislike the new fluff is slowed (I'm not saying you said this, but others have thrown around that type of mindset). According to this new codex, a lot of the old fluff I actually loved about the Necrons didn't actually happen. Oh sure, the codex emphasized the character of the Necrons in ways to give players hooks for variety, unlike the old codex, which is admittedly a flaw on its part, but it also humanised them, made them sympathetic even (The Silent King in particular falls victim to this). Necrons were once one of the only truly alien forces in the galaxy, next to the Tyranids and arguably Chaos. Now? Not so much.

And no, the "Oh but guise some Necrons are still liek that : D " argument doesn't work, because what the Necrons used to be, thematically, are now nothing more than a footnote in the codex. The cosmic horror? Gone, all of it. The alien nature of the Necrons themselves? Also gone, now you have donkey-caves like Trazyn who serve as some comic relief, like some mustache-twirling dastardly super villain (Because hey! Dark Eldar and Chaos have a lot of guys of that, Necrons should get into the fun!).

So yeah, no, I don't really like the new fluff at all, because it either eliminated the old fluff or made it little more than a footnote.

Also, the lack of Inertialess Drives man.

Admit it, you want Ward on your codex.

Haha, no, I'd much prefer him to stay away from the Orks after what I saw happen to the Necrons, if that's all right. Although, it is possible that Ward himself wasn't really responsible for the major shift in fluff in the Necron codex, if you believe rumors.

Deathly Angel wrote:

Namica wrote:Though honestly, I like the new Necron fluff, and think that people who bitch about it are bitching for the sake of it.

Or maybe those people loved the old lore and are more than just a bit dissapointed that, according to their own codex, it now never existed. It's perfectly fine if you like the new background, just don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you.

I'm fine with people not liking the new fluff. I'm just tired of listening to them .

I mean, we could be talking about what went right, and the heaping piles of options we have now.

Nope, just more ward hate.

It was entertaining for the first few days, but seriously, it's been three weeks and people still won' get the off it.

Can we move on and figure out how to use praetorians yet?

If you don't want to read opinions contradictory to your own, don't post on message boards.

I don't hate the new backstory for the necrons as I do like that they've given them a bit more pesonality. I'm not a fan of the more kiddy-friendly face they put on it though! To me, then necrons will always be the most evil race who bartered their souls for immortality simply out of sheer jealousy and then went on a massive genocidale campaign of terror!

Ward's writing is childish and too OTT for my tastes... It's far too absolute and everything is just shoved in your face while screaming 'AWSOMEST EVAH!!11!1!!!!'.



Now, ruleswise, I want to wait and see what 6th holds in store before damning this book or claiming it be some kind of perfect utopia of absolute balance... Alot of things really seem quite 'ho-hum' right now or simply don't make much sense at all. (deathmarks, I'm looking at you guys!)
Mainly because we have no idea how 6th is supposed to work, and this book clearly isn't a current 5th ed book. It could turn out to be like space marines, or it could turn out to be a total crap-shoot like daemons! (who were supposed to be designed with 5th in mind, and look how bad they are!)

For everyone who thinks that Ward's books are these magically balanced masterpieces of tabletop glory, I ask you to look outside the internal blanance of his books... Codex Space Marines is a great book, and I'll give Ward credit where it's due. Lots of viability and varried play styles, only a couple little fixes like storm shields being too cheap and the land raider/drop pod goof.
Codex Marines also don't curbstomp the competition and it doesn't get groans from the majority of opponents about how the nexthour of their lives would be better spent pulling out fingernails than going through with the game!

But Codex: Blood Angels? Okay, it's again got amazing internal balance, but now there's some glaring points of contention;
- descent of angels makes deep striking too safe. Everyone else pays through nose for their teleport homers/icons, but BA's don't even need 'em now... (as a daemon player, I cry)
- Mephy = OP... He's a monstrous creature without any of the drawbacks, 'cause he's actually infantry.
- blood talons. Would have been perfect if they could only effectively doubled the dread's total attacks, instead you can have these things swim through entire units with reletive ease.
- storm raven not only gets the valkyrie's bonus, but now it can also transport 2 different 'units'.
- entire armies of FnP marines. There goes the Daethguard's claim to fame...
- free assault cannons on razorbacks. Just remove the jump packs from assault marines! Should have been left similar to codex: marines, assault squads could take a free rhino/drop pod by removing their jump packs! Now razor-spam just got really stupid with min/max melta/ass-can spam!!!

Codex Grey Knights? You mean the army that's come the closest in 40k to equalling the monstroity that was 7th ed Daemons in fantasy?! The codex that's shelved an entire army by being blaitently & obnoxiously OP against them?!? That Grey Knight codex?!!


Ward's rules are great when you play as those armies... Going against them with a non-Ward book? Hope you like uphill battles, especially if you don't bring your power list/s.

A point, if you will.

Ward's codexs are only amazing for marines.

The necron codex is considered exceptionally well balanced (read:it can't be my army, thus its balanced).

I am supposed to go in a 2k tourny very soon. Looking at others lists its full of amazing stuff.

My army is almost half the size, and rez orbs cost a min of 65 each, and then I get nothing special.

GK and BA are horrendously powered vs my army.

darkslife wrote:A point, if you will.

Ward's codexs are only amazing for marines.

The necron codex is considered exceptionally well balanced (read:it can't be my army, thus its balanced).

I am supposed to go in a 2k tourny very soon. Looking at others lists its full of amazing stuff.

My army is almost half the size, and rez orbs cost a min of 65 each, and then I get nothing special.

GK and BA are horrendously powered vs my army.

'Crons do seem very average right now, and they don't seem to fit at all into the playstyle of 'mechmeltahammer' at all... That said, the real test if you will is how they will fare in 6th ed, since they're really supposed to be the first 6th ed army.
Of corse, histroy seems to point to GW needing at least 2-3 books into a new edition to 'get it right', so as a Daemon player who got what's easily this edition's absolute worst codex, I do feel for you!

And yes, Ward does have a rather obnoxious love for space marines... But then, we all have our absolute favourites as well! (and really, if any of us got the chance to write the codex for our army, it would be just as bad, and likely even worse than anything Ward's cooked-up so far...)

Grey Knights aren't anything close to what Chaos Daemons were in 7th ed fantasy, you have to be absolutely deluded to think that, or just unaware of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Eldar, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Blood Angels.

iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights aren't anything close to what Chaos Daemons were in 7th ed fantasy, you have to be absolutely deluded to think that, or just unaware of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Eldar, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Blood Angels.

I never said Grey Knights = 7th ed Daemons. I said Grey Knights are the closest 40k has come to equalling 7th ed daemons!

7th ed daemons destroyed everything without even needing to try... Grey Knights can be handled by competitive lists from the likes of DE/IG and with good tactics by BA/SW/SM/eldar.
But orks/'nids/tau/CSM's/sisters fall flat and typically get curbstomped by most grey knights lists, especially the more obnoxious builds like purifyer spam! (orks don't have much hope vs a crow list simply because they can't stop clensing flame!)

Daemons isn't even close... Even with a nasty fateweaver build, it's still a rediculous uphill battle unless the GK player purposely builds a gak list.



I don't think GW will ever make the "because they're daemons!" mistake again, but GK's are 40k's closest version and alot of non-DE/SW/BA/IG players would rather not waste their time playing what can easily be a pretty one-sided game...

Experiment 626 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights aren't anything close to what Chaos Daemons were in 7th ed fantasy, you have to be absolutely deluded to think that, or just unaware of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Dark Eldar, Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Blood Angels.

I never said Grey Knights = 7th ed Daemons. I said Grey Knights are the closest 40k has come to equalling 7th ed daemons!

Ok then, I never said that you said that but fine. They aren't anywhere close to being close if you need clarification.

7th ed daemons destroyed everything without even needing to try... Grey Knights can be handled by competitive lists from the likes of DE/IG and with good tactics by BA/SW/SM/eldar.
But orks/'nids/tau/CSM's/sisters fall flat and typically get curbstomped by most grey knights lists, especially the more obnoxious builds like purifyer spam! (orks don't have much hope vs a crow list simply because they can't stop clensing flame!)

Which is not true. Yes, 7th ed Daemons pretty much invalidated any sort of competetive play for quite a while, but 5th ed Grey Knights aren't even close to being like that. The only army that has next to no chance against them is Daemons in 40k, the rest can kill perfectly fine. Granted, Tau and Sisters have a more difficult time, but they have the same bother with pretty much every other 5ed Codex.

Daemons isn't even close... Even with a nasty fateweaver build, it's still a rediculous uphill battle unless the GK player purposely builds a gak list.

I don't think GW will ever make the "because they're daemons!" mistake again, but GK's are 40k's closest version and alot of non-DE/SW/BA/IG players would rather not waste their time playing what can easily be a pretty one-sided game...

Do you see competitive play in 40k demolished like it was in 7th ed Fantasy? No, you don't.

@Experiment 626
You’ve made some really good posts in this thread so far.

Honestly, I never noticed the parallel between GK and Fantasy Daemons until now. One of the main reasons I think why GK is able to compare is partly because the GK book appears to have been costed under a significantly cheaper point cost model than the other 5th edition codices. It would be interesting to find out if this were to still be the case if the GK book was costed under the same point cost model as the Vanilla book.

Internal vs External balance is another good point. Internally, a Ward codex has adequate balance, often with subtractive measures taken to counter balance the effectiveness of something (e.g. Mephiston lacking the IC rules). Externally, there’s always 1-2 bits of wargear/rules that changes the way a certain army plays (probably because they weren’t taken into consideration when they were designed). These are some examples that I could think of:

• Cheap 3++ terminators introduced in the Vanilla book changed the way assault units played in 5th, especially for 3rd/4th edition codices.
• Removal of the previous edition counterbalances for using daemons against GK in the 5th edition book made Daemons almost unplayable against GK.
• BA having very cheap access to Furious Charge and FnP made CSM less viable (and less unique).
• 5th edition nemesis weapons made Tyranid monstrous creatures are somewhat unplayable against GK.

-Loki- wrote:

silence indigo wrote:This was not necessary to introduce the dynasties or even the C'tan's enslavement. Now the Mechanicus background and novels such as Mechanicum, though recent, seem totally inconsistent.

To be fair, it was never outright stated officially that it was the Void Dragon. So it going from being speculated to be the Void Dragon to being speculated to be a particularly powerful shard of the Void Dragon doesn't break any fluff consistency.

yes now it was just a piece of the void dragon that fought the emperor.
by the way, the codex is a win for ward

iproxtaco wrote:
Do you see competitive play in 40k demolished like it was in 7th ed Fantasy? No, you don't.

Without having access to every single tournament break-down of the number of each individual army in attendance and how each army placed, it's impossible to say for certain which army is tops...

That said, GK's are still the current bandwagon army and are right up there with the other biggies like SW/BS/IG/DE in terms of 'tournament saturation'. The fact that GK's forced a big shift in every other armys' list builds to be able to deal with their worst excess does mean that GK's are completely OTT...
Sure they aren't utterly dominating every tournment circuit like 7th ed daemons did, (and even then, a few armies like DE/lizzies/skaven could still compete with set counter-builds)
But they have invalidated a number of 5th ed's weaknesses (mainly vehicles being vulnerable to the stun/lock counter), and they have made entire armies un-playable in a competitive setting. (ork hordes are hosed by purifyer spam, tau has about 1-2 shooting phases to live, 'nids just don't work well in 5th, MEQ's cry at all the force toys, daemons shouldn't even bother...)

GK's aren't quite to the point that the game is a forgone conclusion, but the fact that it's been 8 months since they're release and they're still being bemoaned by a larger portion of the gaming community shows that the book is nowhere near anything remotely balanced...



Anyways, I'll stop derailing this topic now! Appologies about my GK hate, but I'm a Daemons player who's still sore from being bent over and traumitised in a bad place...

I dont all out hate the new fluff, but the rule's and stats have improved and thats good enough for me, but about the backstory, it's just gone from soul harvesting machines which I thought had a good amount of potential and did with the old book IMO, now though, hardly a single link or referance to the old book's backstory, although having said that, it happens with most re-release codices, I think GW needs some codex authors.

Necron codex is Ward's best work IMO. It is reasonably balanced with units that you can use in just about every slot. The characters are interesting and I do like the new fluff. Sure there are some choices like Praetorians and regular destroyers that seem like trash but the rest are not real bad.
The army also has some glaring weaknesses but overall a good xenos codex.

Right now the fluff is the only thing I'm complaining about, especially the use of the webway bs. I'm pretending that that never happened and Necrons still use Inertia-less drives and large scale phase tech/teleportation.

Sup guys we heard you like scapegoats so we got you a scapegoat in your scapegoat so you can scapegoat when you're scapegoating.
Or something.
Matt Ward writes codexes like Steve Jobs made the iPad. Seriously.

I think its solid as well.

The main problem for me with the new necron fluff is that its all based on one thing I find truly faulty.

The C'tan, allmighty, ancient and paranoid (atleast in old fluff) simply gives the silent king control of all the necrons and think that "oh this guy wont betray ous and use his new supreme army to kill ous once the Old ones are defeated".

This makes no sense, why give someone else the power to control the necrons and not just take it (divide it) between themself or atleast put in a fail safe just incase the Silent king gets second thougts. Ok maybe the C'tan felt like even if this would happend it wouldent be a problem or that the necrons never would dare.
But that dosent really match the epicness and power of the C'tan since ancient beings like them should atleast have somekind of backup plan or the foresight to know it was inevitable.

Well if I got something wrong in the fluff or there is more to the story please do tell since if I got this wrong I want it corrected since this flaw buggs the hell out of me.

it goes with the narcissistic thing. they thought that they were so bad-ass that the necrons wouldn't be a threat. They viewed them as a weapon, nothing more

People don't greif because Ward cannot write a Codex, people grief because every now and again he makes some pretty disastrous goofs;

For example:

Old SM Codexes:
Salamanders have darkened skin, due to atmospheric conditions of their homeworld.

Ward's SM Codex:
Salamanders have Black skin, due to a genetic defect.

Ooops.

Hammer18 wrote:it goes with the narcissistic thing. they thought that they were so bad-ass that the necrons wouldn't be a threat. They viewed them as a weapon, nothing more

True but it still seem wrong since I se it hard for something to be so ancient and powerful without atleast taking some precautions (its all to human to be so narcissistic and think that nothing can kill you and I feel sorry that this flaw continue to "infect" other beings in fantasy supposed to be something like a gods).
Even the fact that the C'tan in the new codex seems to trust their own is wierd since (in the old fluff atleast) the C'tan hate their own and often struggle for power amongst themself, so im thinking that the possibility that one (or more) C'tan might try to persuade the Silent king to help him overtrow the other C'tan would be something that might make a good case for taking some safety measure.
It still seems to me that they simply couldn't think of any better reason why the C'tan no longer have any hold over the necrons than some lame ass reason hastily thrown together at the last moment.

I'm really just getting annoyed at how Ward tries so damn hard to convince everyone else that the army is super-cool via OTT fluff.

I mean, Grey Knights were already damn cool. But it's not enough. They need to write names on their enemies hearts and be unkillable by the Chaos Gods (Despite the idea that they somehow cannot kill/remove him from the Warp).

I mean, really, stop trying so damn hard. Grey Knights, Blood Angels, these armies were already interesting, but stuff like this just reverts to childish attempts to try and prove that the faction/race the book covers is #1.

EvilTim wrote:People don't greif because Ward cannot write a Codex, people grief because every now and again he makes some pretty disastrous goofs;

For example:

Old SM Codexes:
Salamanders have darkened skin, due to atmospheric conditions of their homeworld.

Ward's SM Codex:
Salamanders have Black skin, due to a genetic defect.

Ooops.

Both of those are wrong. In 2nd edition, they had jet black skin. In 3rd/4th edition, they had dark skin. In 5th edition, they have jet black skin again. You can argue both ways - changing the original retcon or making a mistake.

The reason was never changed (at least since 3rd edition). It was always because the radioactive atmosphere of Nocturne screws around with their genetics.

EvilTim wrote:People don't greif because Ward cannot write a Codex, people grief because every now and again he makes some pretty disastrous goofs;

For example:

Old SM Codexes:
Salamanders have darkened skin, due to atmospheric conditions of their homeworld.

Ward's SM Codex:
Salamanders have Black skin, due to a genetic defect.

Ooops.

What oops? The people of Nocturn have a genetic defect that affects how they interact with the space marine bio-re-engineering process. It's a genetic mutation that the Elexarchy has deemed "okay" and doesn't kill them all for (just finished the novel Salamander over the weekend).

The new Necron fluff is kind of hit and miss IMO. Thematically, I don’t like the new “Tomb Kings in Space” direction and their shift towards neutrality. I’ve never been a fan of retcons and in this case, I don’t think it was approached as best as it could have been.

Not all the fluff was bad though as the fleshing out of the Necrotyr race including the Silent King was a step in the right direction. Ideally they could have fleshed out the Necron backstory a bit more without having to retcon the fluff.

As a side note, if Necrons were previously classified as a “Forces of Disorder” race, where the heck do they stand now that they’re neutral? The way I see it, is that Newcrons could at best be roughly shoehorned into the disorder category although realistically they now don’t belong in either the disorder or order categories.

salix_fatuus wrote:

Hammer18 wrote:it goes with the narcissistic thing. they thought that they were so bad-ass that the necrons wouldn't be a threat. They viewed them as a weapon, nothing more

True but it still seem wrong since I se it hard for something to be so ancient and powerful without atleast taking some precautions (its all to human to be so narcissistic and think that nothing can kill you and I feel sorry that this flaw continue to "infect" other beings in fantasy supposed to be something like a gods).
Even the fact that the C'tan in the new codex seems to trust their own is wierd since (in the old fluff atleast) the C'tan hate their own and often struggle for power amongst themself, so im thinking that the possibility that one (or more) C'tan might try to persuade the Silent king to help him overtrow the other C'tan would be something that might make a good case for taking some safety measure.
It still seems to me that they simply couldn't think of any better reason why the C'tan no longer have any hold over the necrons than some lame ass reason hastily thrown together at the last moment.

in the dex it states they made some massive weapons using life energy itself. plus this was also after they had taken down the OO. they might have been aware but too weak and too overwhelmed by the weapons that they just couldnt fight it.
@candy man: they are disorderly order

Hammer18 wrote:

salix_fatuus wrote:

Hammer18 wrote:it goes with the narcissistic thing. they thought that they were so bad-ass that the necrons wouldn't be a threat. They viewed them as a weapon, nothing more

True but it still seem wrong since I se it hard for something to be so ancient and powerful without atleast taking some precautions (its all to human to be so narcissistic and think that nothing can kill you and I feel sorry that this flaw continue to "infect" other beings in fantasy supposed to be something like a gods).
Even the fact that the C'tan in the new codex seems to trust their own is wierd since (in the old fluff atleast) the C'tan hate their own and often struggle for power amongst themself, so im thinking that the possibility that one (or more) C'tan might try to persuade the Silent king to help him overtrow the other C'tan would be something that might make a good case for taking some safety measure.
It still seems to me that they simply couldn't think of any better reason why the C'tan no longer have any hold over the necrons than some lame ass reason hastily thrown together at the last moment.

in the dex it states they made some massive weapons using life energy itself. plus this was also after they had taken down the OO. they might have been aware but too weak and too overwhelmed by the weapons that they just couldnt fight it.
@candy man: they are disorderly order

True but it still seems like if they been aware they would have planned things better, forcing the Necrons to take on the OO first then in the end swoop in and end them once they are almost dead.
And why even give them weapons that can overwhelm them in the first place and not some weapons that bearly can hurt the C'tan but are still powerful vs eldar or OO.

They didn't give them to them. the necron invented them. the only thing the c'tan gave them was the technology of biotransferance.