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The base of the necrons really remains unchanged. The problem with lych guard and praetorians is 40 pts for CC monster unit with I2 and no invulnerable of 2+ save is overcosted. Thus I expect them not to get played.

But the power of the necron seems to be in the royal court and specifically 2 courts. An immortal squad with a necron lord with scarab and res orb and then a cryptek with lightning field means your opponent has to look at one of his number likely attacking himself plus he has to weather d6 S8 shots. Or two crypteks with the cloak (can't remember the name) that causes - D3 to enemy assault range. Take two and minus 2d3 to assault range. Other than beasts, this is going to make assaulting necrons very hard indeed. Or how about a ctan making difficult terrain into dangerous and then spamming crypteks with the S4 small blast thing that makes them in difficult terrain.

The cheese is there but Necrons at low point totals will get crushed. Necrons may be a tier one army at 'ard Boys but struggle at low point totals.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Zid wrote:I still don't see what people see in Scythes... if they wreck/explode your unit goes into reserve... meaning your basically attempting to turbo around until last turn to tag objectives; but your AV 11.

Herm......

The NS are 100 pts, so cheap for the toys they get. Yes, they are av11 without quantum shielding, but they are fast, spammable, and have an amazing 24 inch gun. They are a unit that can produce a true alpha strike for the necrons. The tesla destructor is twin-linked S7 with 4 shots at 24 inchs, and has the tesla rule and the arcing rule. Take 6 of these and work out the math. It boils down to ~ 26 hits of S7 and that is not counting the arcing rule, which can produce additional hits. They also deliver that pain after moving 12 inches, which means you can reach out and touch anything on the first turn.

The idea with them is to cause so much damage in turn 1-2 that the opponent is knocked down and cannot mount a significant retaliation. The av11 then is not that important.

IMO having the infantry go in reserve if the NS is destroyed is not a hindrance but a boon. It means a bunch of scoring units are perfectly safe and can either walk in to claim home objectives or be pulled in by monoliths whenever and wherever desirable.

The points work out correctly as well. In a standard game, one can have 5 or 6 units of NS with 5 warriors each, 2 monoliths, 2x 10scarabs, and Imotekh. That is a ton of firepower and av-busting scarabs.

My only gripe with NS is they don't have quantum shielding, which is very strange. I expect that to be FAQed together with a slight increase in point cost.

Warboss Gutrip wrote: Also even if they need 6's necrons can kill every thing you have.

Not anymore. Gauss lost the auto-wounding on 6 rule but kept the auto-glance.

So your banking on an AP - str 7 gun to do a lot of damage...? You'll struggle severely to pop Necron Transports, stop grey knights from doing things, and even light transports will give you hell (as if you glance its -3 to the chart).

I forsee (for not, until 6th ed anyway) SW missle spam and things like Draigowing tearing apart crons that go that route. If they get Fliers in 6th that would be great (but this would also make the Stormraven soooooooo good, and the DE fliers), but I still wouldn't see them as that viable. Yah, they're spammable; but they're most likely gonna be a $50 kit on top of that. They aren't reliable at holding objectives either, and they have the same armor as a rhino.

As Void said, Barges are awesomesauce. I think a few scythes peppered in might be good, but spamming them means your trying to do a worse version of Razorspam

DAaddict wrote:The base of the necrons really remains unchanged. The problem with lych guard and praetorians is 40 pts for CC monster unit with I2 and no invulnerable of 2+ save is overcosted. Thus I expect them not to get played.

When are people going to realise that Initiative isn't the only statistic that matters in CC? Don't get me wrong, I love my DE, but if Initiative was as amazing as people make it out too they would never lose a game. Lychguard with a shield have a 3+/4++ AND an RP 5+(or 4+). The <AND> is the important kicker there. Most saves don't get and AND. The only other AND out there is FP and it's MUCH MUCH easier to deny your opponent then RP is.

With a Res Orb Lychguard have a 75% chance of Not dying against every weapon in the game. There isn't a non HQ unit in the game that can say that. NONE. Especially with 5T. That's almost on par with have a 2+ Invulnerable (83.33% chance to not die), something reserved for a very select few.

In Summary, I2 is not nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be, not when you have 5T 3+/4++ RP backing it up. The average Str 4 WS 4 PW has a 5.56% chance per attack of scoring a wound against lychguard, and that is with no res orb.

let me say that again: The average Str 4 WS 4 PW has a 5.56% chance per attack of scoring a wound.

With a res orb that lowers to 4.17%. Basically what that means is you need about 25 Str4 PW attacks to reliably score One Wound. And you guys think they are OVERCOSTED!?!?!?!. I'm simply incredulous. Not surprised, I've been reading interweb banter for over a decade now, but incredulous none the less, and disappointed.

Sorry

At the moment people are trying their hand at the gimmicks, because this codex has a LOT of gimmick units. But when you boil the gimmicks away, your standard Mech army core is 5 Immortals in a NightScythe for 185 points, which is nails.

Well said, this is also my impression. In the meantime, players seem to go through all the gimmicks the codex offers. But at the end there are only a few which are worth the points.

Zid wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Zid wrote:I still don't see what people see in Scythes... if they wreck/explode your unit goes into reserve... meaning your basically attempting to turbo around until last turn to tag objectives; but your AV 11.

Herm......

The NS are 100 pts, so cheap for the toys they get. Yes, they are av11 without quantum shielding, but they are fast, spammable, and have an amazing 24 inch gun. They are a unit that can produce a true alpha strike for the necrons. The tesla destructor is twin-linked S7 with 4 shots at 24 inchs, and has the tesla rule and the arcing rule. Take 6 of these and work out the math. It boils down to ~ 26 hits of S7 and that is not counting the arcing rule, which can produce additional hits. They also deliver that pain after moving 12 inches, which means you can reach out and touch anything on the first turn.

The idea with them is to cause so much damage in turn 1-2 that the opponent is knocked down and cannot mount a significant retaliation. The av11 then is not that important.

IMO having the infantry go in reserve if the NS is destroyed is not a hindrance but a boon. It means a bunch of scoring units are perfectly safe and can either walk in to claim home objectives or be pulled in by monoliths whenever and wherever desirable.

The points work out correctly as well. In a standard game, one can have 5 or 6 units of NS with 5 warriors each, 2 monoliths, 2x 10scarabs, and Imotekh. That is a ton of firepower and av-busting scarabs.

My only gripe with NS is they don't have quantum shielding, which is very strange. I expect that to be FAQed together with a slight increase in point cost.

Warboss Gutrip wrote: Also even if they need 6's necrons can kill every thing you have.

Not anymore. Gauss lost the auto-wounding on 6 rule but kept the auto-glance.

So your banking on an AP - str 7 gun to do a lot of damage...? You'll struggle severely to pop Necron Transports, stop grey knights from doing things, and even light transports will give you hell (as if you glance its -3 to the chart).

I forsee (for not, until 6th ed anyway) SW missle spam and things like Draigowing tearing apart crons that go that route. If they get Fliers in 6th that would be great (but this would also make the Stormraven soooooooo good, and the DE fliers), but I still wouldn't see them as that viable. Yah, they're spammable; but they're most likely gonna be a $50 kit on top of that. They aren't reliable at holding objectives either, and they have the same armor as a rhino.

As Void said, Barges are awesomesauce. I think a few scythes peppered in might be good, but spamming them means your trying to do a worse version of Razorspam

Nah, better version of Razorspam. Light transports get owned by TL-Ds, sure -3 sucks but -1 is 'don't care' when you get so many shots, and if the vehicle you're shooting is open topped? Ha. Anything not a light transport, you are swamped with options in the rest of the codex.

Do the math on TL-D's vs TLLC, TLAC, LAs-Plas. Then consider which one has the stronger 5 man squads. Who is better at demeching the other?

wuestenfux wrote:

At the moment people are trying their hand at the gimmicks, because this codex has a LOT of gimmick units. But when you boil the gimmicks away, your standard Mech army core is 5 Immortals in a NightScythe for 185 points, which is nails.

Well said, this is also my impression. In the meantime, players seem to go through all the gimmicks the codex offers. But at the end there are only a few which are worth the points.

While I disagree that some of the "gimmicks" are not worth their points, or that they are even indeed "gimmicks (defined loosely, what is really the difference between a gimmick and a tactic despite the negative connotation to the former?)" it would not surprise me at all if Scyth spam with MSU Immortals and Mono's for contingency become popular. I don't believe that particular list is superior per say, but the average player tends to gravitate towards simple straight forward tactics, and nothing can be more simple then redundancy, throwing lots of dice at people, and hoping for first turn.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Zid wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Zid wrote:I still don't see what people see in Scythes... if they wreck/explode your unit goes into reserve... meaning your basically attempting to turbo around until last turn to tag objectives; but your AV 11.

Herm......

The NS are 100 pts, so cheap for the toys they get. Yes, they are av11 without quantum shielding, but they are fast, spammable, and have an amazing 24 inch gun. They are a unit that can produce a true alpha strike for the necrons. The tesla destructor is twin-linked S7 with 4 shots at 24 inchs, and has the tesla rule and the arcing rule. Take 6 of these and work out the math. It boils down to ~ 26 hits of S7 and that is not counting the arcing rule, which can produce additional hits. They also deliver that pain after moving 12 inches, which means you can reach out and touch anything on the first turn.

The idea with them is to cause so much damage in turn 1-2 that the opponent is knocked down and cannot mount a significant retaliation. The av11 then is not that important.

IMO having the infantry go in reserve if the NS is destroyed is not a hindrance but a boon. It means a bunch of scoring units are perfectly safe and can either walk in to claim home objectives or be pulled in by monoliths whenever and wherever desirable.

The points work out correctly as well. In a standard game, one can have 5 or 6 units of NS with 5 warriors each, 2 monoliths, 2x 10scarabs, and Imotekh. That is a ton of firepower and av-busting scarabs.

My only gripe with NS is they don't have quantum shielding, which is very strange. I expect that to be FAQed together with a slight increase in point cost.

Warboss Gutrip wrote: Also even if they need 6's necrons can kill every thing you have.

Not anymore. Gauss lost the auto-wounding on 6 rule but kept the auto-glance.

So your banking on an AP - str 7 gun to do a lot of damage...? You'll struggle severely to pop Necron Transports, stop grey knights from doing things, and even light transports will give you hell (as if you glance its -3 to the chart).

I forsee (for not, until 6th ed anyway) SW missle spam and things like Draigowing tearing apart crons that go that route. If they get Fliers in 6th that would be great (but this would also make the Stormraven soooooooo good, and the DE fliers), but I still wouldn't see them as that viable. Yah, they're spammable; but they're most likely gonna be a $50 kit on top of that. They aren't reliable at holding objectives either, and they have the same armor as a rhino.

As Void said, Barges are awesomesauce. I think a few scythes peppered in might be good, but spamming them means your trying to do a worse version of Razorspam

Nah, better version of Razorspam. Light transports get owned by TL-Ds, sure -3 sucks but -1 is 'don't care' when you get so many shots, and if the vehicle you're shooting is open topped? Ha. Anything not a light transport, you are swamped with options in the rest of the codex.

Do the math on TL-D's vs TLLC, TLAC, LAs-Plas. Then consider which one has the stronger 5 man squads. Who is better at demeching the other?

I will give you that 4 TL str 7 shots is good; of that, there is no doubt. But with a 24" range, and you won't be turboing when you do fire, means that your opponent (more than likely packing meltas too) will more often than not retaliate in kind. As well, Marines have Rifleman Dreads; which are twice the range, and just as good (and cheap to boot!). 9/10 games you'll be shuffling for objectives, not trying to wipe your opponent out; when a razor wrecks, the crew will just camp the objective. When a scythe wrecks, there goes your scoring unit needing to walk on (or use a Lith). This makes rushing for objectives last turn VERY unreliable.

Things that make a winning list are durability, ability to TAC, reliability, and mobility. This is mobile, yes, and possibly good for TAC, but its not reliable or durable. I feel Ark's fit more into that realm; plus having 20 shots makes them pretty awesome gunboats. So who knows? Time will tell, but my moneys on Arks or Slogging for now. Scythes have potential but man... I really would hate to see this army relegated to MSU spam with scarabs like every other damn codex seems to be :(

Zid wrote:

So your banking on an AP - str 7 gun to do a lot of damage...? You'll struggle severely to pop Necron Transports, stop grey knights from doing things, and even light transports will give you hell (as if you glance its -3 to the chart).

That is a valid point, but the reality is that the -1 fro Ap- is cancelled by the +1 from open-topped and most of the transports Necrons have to worry about are open-topped, because infantry can assault from out of them. On the other hand, chimeras are enclosed but used as mobile bunkers, so shaken and stunned results means no shooting for the passengers. Then on turn 2, the scarabs would munch them up. To disable a transport, you do not have to blow it up. Stunning and immobilization work almost as well. GK ignore that and thus are annoying, but that is BAU.

I forsee (for not, until 6th ed anyway) SW missle spam and things like Draigowing tearing apart crons that go that route.

That is BAU as well. SW and GK are ridiculous in almost any context. A foot army that you can take to make long fangs less useful will be shredded up by DE.

Yah, they're spammable; but they're most likely gonna be a $50 kit on top of that.

That is not a problem with the build. It is GW pricing of plastic and IP. Besides, the arks are 50 bucks as well.

They aren't reliable at holding objectives either, and they have the same armor as a rhino.

You don't have to hold all objectives to win. Clear one and contest the rest. MSU is good at that. Players will discover the new monoliths are awesome at clearing objectives. Gate of exile all annoying guards then gate in the 5-warrior unit to claim it on your last turn. The list I suggested has a lot of synergy that people just don't seem to see. Look at the big picture, not at the weaknesses of its constituent pieces.

As Void said, Barges are awesomesauce.

I cherish the hope that they will turn out to be better than they look. Right now, they annoy me in that they cannot be fired to full effect unless stationary since they are not fast. Also, they compete with monoliths for the heavy slots, and I really want to field the monolith in pairs.

For the same price, Rifleman Dreads get ~3.5 hits a turn a turn of firing, with a maximum of 4. Each Scythe get just over 5 hits in a turn of firing, with an unlikely maximum of 12. They aren't comparable. The Dread has range yes and a point of extra AV yes, but that range gets shut down by Necron Nightfight, and the Scythe shoots first with the option to flank things for side armor shots.

But the main point is, the Scythe is your TROOP TRANSPORT as well, where the Dread is a Heavy/Elites choice.

The Scythe putting troops back intro reserve is not an unworkable disadvantage.

Almost all objectives you place will be near your board edge. You can give your troops tesla and/or Crypteks and opt to disembark them early in the game. Loading depleted units into Scythes to protect their killpoint is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Night Fighting does not reliably "shut down" nearly any modern shooty army, except I guess GK players who skimped on searchlights or Tau players who decided not to bother with Blacksun Filters. Does anyone still field Loota/Shoota? That's the only build that I can see being really, truly constrained by Night Fighting against a Scythe army.

Bad_Sheep37 wrote: Not to mention some of their weapons get X amount of hits where X is the amount of people in that squad. When your looking at a STR 10 AP 1 hit for every model in your squad...thats pretty scary

This is not correct. The weapon you are referring to does not hit every model in the unit, it hits every Model in the unit that is under the line, not every model of every unit under the line.

The wording on it is poor, but the Spanish FAQ has already fixed the wording making it clear that it does not hit every model.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Zid wrote:

So your banking on an AP - str 7 gun to do a lot of damage...? You'll struggle severely to pop Necron Transports, stop grey knights from doing things, and even light transports will give you hell (as if you glance its -3 to the chart).

That is a valid point, but the reality is that the -1 fro Ap- is cancelled by the +1 from open-topped and most of the transports Necrons have to worry about are open-topped, because infantry can assault from out of them. On the other hand, chimeras are enclosed but used as mobile bunkers, so shaken and stunned results means no shooting for the passengers. Then on turn 2, the scarabs would munch them up. To disable a transport, you do not have to blow it up. Stunning and immobilization work almost as well. GK ignore that and thus are annoying, but that is BAU.

I forsee (for not, until 6th ed anyway) SW missle spam and things like Draigowing tearing apart crons that go that route.

That is BAU as well. SW and GK are ridiculous in almost any context. A foot army that you can take to make long fangs less useful will be shredded up by DE.

Yah, they're spammable; but they're most likely gonna be a $50 kit on top of that.

That is not a problem with the build. It is GW pricing of plastic and IP. Besides, the arks are 50 bucks as well.

They aren't reliable at holding objectives either, and they have the same armor as a rhino.

You don't have to hold all objectives to win. Clear one and contest the rest. MSU is good at that. Players will discover the new monoliths are awesome at clearing objectives. Gate of exile all annoying guards then gate in the 5-warrior unit to claim it on your last turn. The list I suggested has a lot of synergy that people just don't seem to see. Look at the big picture, not at the weaknesses of its constituent pieces.

As Void said, Barges are awesomesauce.

I cherish the hope that they will turn out to be better than they look. Right now, they annoy me in that they cannot be fired to full effect unless stationary since they are not fast. Also, they compete with monoliths for the heavy slots, and I really want to field the monolith in pairs.

All valid points. i guess, as I said, time will tell; as with everything, some units work for some and some work for others. I just really wanna see what 'Crons can do come 6th.... same with DE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:For the same price, Rifleman Dreads get ~3.5 hits a turn a turn of firing, with a maximum of 4. Each Scythe get just over 5 hits in a turn of firing, with an unlikely maximum of 12. They aren't comparable. The Dread has range yes and a point of extra AV yes, but that range gets shut down by Necron Nightfight, and the Scythe shoots first with the option to flank things for side armor shots.

But the main point is, the Scythe is your TROOP TRANSPORT as well, where the Dread is a Heavy/Elites choice.

The Scythe putting troops back intro reserve is not an unworkable disadvantage.

Almost all objectives you place will be near your board edge. You can give your troops tesla and/or Crypteks and opt to disembark them early in the game. Loading depleted units into Scythes to protect their killpoint is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

And how do you get 5 hits...? Are you assuming a units within 6" and gets hit with the Arc? Its an Assault 4 weapon. Statistically its the same as a rifleman, minus range.

Also, I know its workable, however, most of the time you'll be aiming to score/contest in the last turn or two. It is un workable if they pop the transport, sending your unit into reserve, and the game ends. It makes me super wary of them.

Now, I'm also going to say I'll probably test a few out (with Barges) and see how well they do. I'm still a big fan of Spyders in this dex lol

Fetterkey wrote:Night Fighting does not reliably "shut down" nearly any modern shooty army, except I guess GK players who skimped on searchlights or Tau players who decided not to bother with Blacksun Filters. Does anyone still field Loota/Shoota? That's the only build that I can see being really, truly constrained by Night Fighting against a Scythe army.

Searchlights still have to be rolled for, they are not a guaranteed contingency, especially if the Cron player goes first (go go Immo). You have a pretty good shot with Telsa to shut down any searchlight units on your half of the board before they have a chance to spot you.

How will you "shut down" said searchlights when you yourself suffer from Night Fighting and the opponent has a chance to move before using them? Remember that Imotekh's Night Fighting is a double-edged sword. You can counter this with solar pulses, but then you don't have such a high chance of going first.

Zid wrote:
And how do you get 5 hits...? Are you assuming a units within 6" and gets hit with the Arc? Its an Assault 4 weapon. Statistically its the same as a rifleman, minus range.

Tesla. Every 6 you initially roll counts as 3 Str 7 hits. Then you reroll misses.



Don't leave scoring units in Nightscythes on the last turn?

Any one using Imotekh is going to be maximising unit with mid range weapons and/or model that are going to assault.

As for competitiveness ... Just look at warriors 13pts each with a great statline WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 I1 Ld10 Sv4+ and a 1/3rd chance to comeback if killed. No other race comes close to that.
Now add a lord with a Warscythe, Mindshackle scarabs and a resurrection orb (90pts) and you have a unit that can fight all but dedicated CC units.

Between the strong HQ's, arguably the best MC's in the game with the C'Tan shards and the nifty (but expensive) vehicles, I see Necrons as entering the top tier of competitive codices along with IG, SW and BA.

However, do keep in mind that they are due for a boost (along with many other armies) when 6th Edition's rumored change to the Rapid Fire rule arrives, making their gunlines quite murderous within the 13-24 inches range.

Fetterkey wrote:How will you "shut down" said searchlights when you yourself suffer from Night Fighting and the opponent has a chance to move before using them? Remember that Imotekh's Night Fighting is a double-edged sword. You can counter this with solar pulses, but then you don't have such a high chance of going first.

It's not "suffering from NF" or "a double edged sword" when you design the whole army with a 24" threat range. It's more like "bringing the opponents threat range in line with yours", which pound ofr pound (or point for point) should favour the Necron army against most builds.

Also, if they are close enough to be able to move and get off a searchlight then you are close enough to them to move and shoot them.

It's not "suffering from NF" or "a double edged sword" when you design the whole army with a 24" threat range. It's more like "bringing the opponents threat range in line with yours", which pound ofr pound (or point for point) should favour the Necron army against most builds.

Also, if they are close enough to be able to move and get off a searchlight then you are close enough to them to move and shoot them.

I'd definitely agree with this. People who are poo-pooing nightfight are taking it far too lightly. As it's been stated, you still have to roll to see through night fight with searchlights, they aren't insta win. Also, worrying about Tau is pretty irrelevant. That out of date army is so point constricted (and option constricted) that if Tau players want to start cramming in Blacksun filters, so be it.

Not all Cron armies will benefit from Imotekh. However, he does make foot armies very viable. Mech-crons don't need Imo, but 1 Solar Pulse is incredibly helpful. People realize that a single Solar Pulse basically guarantees Necrons the alpha strike, right?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Zid wrote:
And how do you get 5 hits...? Are you assuming a units within 6" and gets hit with the Arc? Its an Assault 4 weapon. Statistically its the same as a rifleman, minus range.

Tesla. Every 6 you initially roll counts as 3 Str 7 hits. Then you reroll misses.

I think it is 2 additional hits for each rolled 6, so yes, every 6 is effectively 3 hits. Let's calculate it once and for all.

So, TL Tesla Destructor has 4*2/3= 8/3 original hits. Then reroll the 4*(1/3) misses, of which 2/3 hit, or 8/9 hits on reroll. So, original and rerolled hits are 8/3 + 8/9=32/9. Of these hits 1 in 4 will be natural sixes (since to hit you need 3+ at BS4). For each natural 6, you get 2 more hits. So the tesla rule hits will be (32/9)*2*(1/4)=16/9. So after everything except for arcing, you get 32/9+16/9=48/9=5.33 hits.

Conclusion: One TLTD on average should give you 5.33 hits at S7 plus varying amount of arcing hits at S5.

This amount of firepower is just irresistible in building spam lists.

The variance is amazing too. Sometimes you'll pull 8 hits.

can you calculate how often you get 8 hits from one TL-D?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:The variance is amazing too. Sometimes you'll pull 8 hits.

can you calculate how often you get 8 hits from one TL-D?

You will have to roll 2 sixes.
Sorry, don't have time to work that out.

I know the max number of hits it can inflict is 12.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:How will you "shut down" said searchlights when you yourself suffer from Night Fighting and the opponent has a chance to move before using them? Remember that Imotekh's Night Fighting is a double-edged sword. You can counter this with solar pulses, but then you don't have such a high chance of going first.

It's not "suffering from NF" or "a double edged sword" when you design the whole army with a 24" threat range. It's more like "bringing the opponents threat range in line with yours", which pound ofr pound (or point for point) should favour the Necron army against most builds.

Um, yes it is? Having an army with a 24" threat range is a massive constraint, and even if you pretend that's not the case, a 24" threat range army without searchlights is still inferior to a >24" threat range army with searchlights in Night Fighting, to say nothing of Acute Senses or Blacksun Filters.

JGrand wrote:People who are poo-pooing nightfight are taking it far too lightly. As it's been stated, you still have to roll to see through night fight with searchlights, they aren't insta win.

Would you rather have an army with searchlights or an army without searchlights? Searchlights mean that one sacrificial Rhino can allow the whole army shots at key units. I think people who are claiming Night Fighting (for both sides!) is a huge advantage if you tailor your list are advocating non all-comers lists and taking anti-night fighting equipment far too lightly.

JGrand wrote:Also, worrying about Tau is pretty irrelevant. That out of date army is so point constricted (and option constricted) that if Tau players want to start cramming in Blacksun filters, so be it.

I guess you haven't played against good Tau players, then?

JGrand wrote:Not all Cron armies will benefit from Imotekh. However, he does make foot armies very viable. Mech-crons don't need Imo, but 1 Solar Pulse is incredibly helpful. People realize that a single Solar Pulse basically guarantees Necrons the alpha strike, right?

Solar Pulses are great. Solar Pulses are close to autoinclude tier. I would personally nearly always field two. One-sided Night Fighting is extremely powerful, and while it can be mitigated to an extent by anti-Night Fighting equipment, the solar pulses cost 40 points and they're on units you should be taking anyway, so even if the opponent comes prepared and rolls well enough to mitigate your Pulses, you've barely wasted any points at all. Overall, they will be more than worth it in a majority of games. On the other hand, taking the 225-point Imotekh and then radically constraining yourself by eliminating long-ranged weapons in order to dodge the nerf that he brings to your army's shooting is not. That's a significant chunk of points invested into something that may not pay off.

I love the Destructor myself.
To score 8+ hits while firing the gun Once, incoming mathhammer:

16.8% chance.
For reference, if you're spamming these guns, and can fire 6 of them in a turn, that's odds on for one of them to score those 8 hits.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DAaddict wrote:The base of the necrons really remains unchanged. The problem with lych guard and praetorians is 40 pts for CC monster unit with I2 and no invulnerable of 2+ save is overcosted. Thus I expect them not to get played.

When are people going to realise that Initiative isn't the only statistic that matters in CC? Don't get me wrong, I love my DE, but if Initiative was as amazing as people make it out too they would never lose a game. Lychguard with a shield have a 3+/4++ AND an RP 5+(or 4+). The <AND> is the important kicker there. Most saves don't get and AND. The only other AND out there is FP and it's MUCH MUCH easier to deny your opponent then RP is.

With a Res Orb Lychguard have a 75% chance of Not dying against every weapon in the game. There isn't a non HQ unit in the game that can say that. NONE. Especially with 5T. That's almost on par with have a 2+ Invulnerable (83.33% chance to not die), something reserved for a very select few.

In Summary, I2 is not nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be, not when you have 5T 3+/4++ RP backing it up. The average Str 4 WS 4 PW has a 5.56% chance per attack of scoring a wound against lychguard, and that is with no res orb.

let me say that again: The average Str 4 WS 4 PW has a 5.56% chance per attack of scoring a wound.

With a res orb that lowers to 4.17%. Basically what that means is you need about 25 Str4 PW attacks to reliably score One Wound. And you guys think they are OVERCOSTED!?!?!?!. I'm simply incredulous. Not surprised, I've been reading interweb banter for over a decade now, but incredulous none the less, and disappointed.

Sorry

Sure initiative isn't everything but the COST is why they will not be played. At 1850 I assume 3 troops a necrpn overlord and royal court, that is going to run around 1000 points so now you have 850 left. You probably have limited survivability so now you want some vehicles necron vehicles are not cheap so you are talking about 500 points for 4 vehicles. Now that leaves you around 300 points. 5 lychguard with the shields are going to run you 225 points and say a necron lord with an orb for 65. I am not questioning that the unit can clean the clock of 200 point troops but I do question how well it will do against terminators and the like. If you are taking them, you want to dominate in HTH not merely survive. I think that against a 300 pt equivalent CC unit of an opponent, they are going to lose. That is why I would not take them. They are on the verge but not quite there. For the points you have to invest, they just are not going to make my lists. Wraiths, scarabs and spyders, ctan, another overlord with court are going to be more flexible to needs.

I'd say you are blowing things pretty far out of proportion with your estimates. I was on board with your estimates, to a degree, for the Court, 3 troops, and Overlord being about 1000 points. But that would definitely be transports included, unless you are talking about a full 5 man cryptic death squad, 3x10 immortals, and Imotekh, but even then it's still 935ish points.

The mathhammer has been done to death at this point, but the Sword and Board Lychguard with a Lord/Orb will more or less go blow for blow with the same point value worth of TH/SS Terminators.

And lets talk about those terminators for a second. They are CC monsters that go at I1 and cost 40 points apiece. If I isn't a problem for them, I don't see how it's a problem for Lychgard. You have to think about them as TH/SS terminators when you play with them. They are exactly as survivable without an orb, and slightly more so with the orb save wise, but they also have a 5T, and can sweeping advance (though, admittedly I2 is not going to score them much success). Now, If I were looking to kill some terminators with any given army, I'd probably march my melee deathstar over to charging distance, and then fire melta/lascannon/plasma/lances at the group to soften them up before I cleaned up in melee. With Lychguard, that is a very dangerous thing to do, as they will be reflecting half of your hits right back at your deathstar. It is something that you force your opponent think about, and make tough choices. Stay out of melee range, focus your AV level guns at them; charge em, but be prepared for a long fight; or fire, but take a few hits yourself.

For the most part, I do like wraiths a little better from a pure stats/strategy perspective. The lychguard just happen to look cooler, have up to date models that wont be replaced in 6 months, and don't compete with scarabs for FA slots. I definitely think they have a place in the army, and are fairly priced.

It feels too early to tell, but I'm having trouble between getting enough shooting in my list to pause the enemy, while still having answers to keep highly destructive combat units challenged.

Yeah if you check out the Mathhammer, Lychguard are very capable combat units. They only lack in the mobility side of things, this means you need to spend more on transport means, but most elite CC units have points invested in delivery too, so it isn't unreasonable to spend more on a scythe, veil cryptek or monolith and I can see monoliths being included in a general lists regardless.

The unit I'm unsure about currently is anyone going to be running the new destroyers? I was thinking their firepower is great for MEQ in particular, but still clocking in at 200 points and taking an FA slot are more scarabs a better option? Or are they worth it if you also include a stalker in the list for force multiplication.

GiantSlingshot wrote:I love the Destructor myself.
To score 8+ hits while firing the gun Once, incoming mathhammer:

Spoiler:

To answer the 8 hits question, it's a little roundabout to calculate
First, all of the shots must hit at all in the first place, (8/9)^4 chance, so, 62.4% chance.

From there, you have 4 results that can be a 3-6, so, there are 256 possible permutations.
6666,x666,6x66,66x6,666x,xx66,x6x6,x66x,6xx6,6x6x,66xx, where x is a number between 3 and 5 are all the useful results. A category that has 1 x could be 3 different results. 2 x's could be 9 different results
1x1 + 4x3 + 6x9 = 67, and 67/256 is 26.2% chance of 8 wounds or better when all of the dice hit. So, 26.2% Chance after a 62.4% chance is 16.3% Chance.

Though, for your purposes, it's possible to get above 8 hits with 1 shot still missing, you just have to get 3 6's on the other dice.

The chance of exactly one miss is 31.2%. After that, there is a (1/4)^3 chance that all of the hits were 6's, which is a 1.6% chance. So, 1.6% after a 31.2% chance is a .5% chance to get 9 hits with 1 miss. Add that to the chance to get 8+ hits on 4 successful dice is a total of 16.8% chance to score 8+ hits every time you fire the gun.

16.8% chance.
For reference, if you're spamming these guns, and can fire 6 of them in a turn, that's odds on for one of them to score those 8 hits.

I think if you take twin linking into account those odds are higher?

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Zid wrote:
And how do you get 5 hits...? Are you assuming a units within 6" and gets hit with the Arc? Its an Assault 4 weapon. Statistically its the same as a rifleman, minus range.

Tesla. Every 6 you initially roll counts as 3 Str 7 hits. Then you reroll misses.

I think it is 2 additional hits for each rolled 6, so yes, every 6 is effectively 3 hits. Let's calculate it once and for all.

So, TL Tesla Destructor has 4*2/3= 8/3 original hits. Then reroll the 4*(1/3) misses, of which 2/3 hit, or 8/9 hits on reroll. So, original and rerolled hits are 8/3 + 8/9=32/9. Of these hits 1 in 4 will be natural sixes (since to hit you need 3+ at BS4). For each natural 6, you get 2 more hits. So the tesla rule hits will be (32/9)*2*(1/4)=16/9. So after everything except for arcing, you get 32/9+16/9=48/9=5.33 hits.

Conclusion: One TLTD on average should give you 5.33 hits at S7 plus varying amount of arcing hits at S5.

This amount of firepower is just irresistible in building spam lists.

Durr.... im an idiot lol!

I may try em out then; but I still feel Pulses may be better for that list than Imotek...

I think a core of two or three Night Scythes + 2x5 Warriors will end up being a good core. They are quite potent, I agree - but they aren't too tough with AV11 when an enemy player starts rolling 5's or 6's. Also firepower of the TL-D + 5 gauss weapons is okay but it does not answer a few key threats.

That is why no more than 3 will be fielded as you will run out of points to do field the answers to those questions (Multi-wound, AV14 pie lobbers, hordes, TEQ's.). It's 495pts for 3 which leaves 1005pts for a HQ and the rest of the army. Not a bad bet.